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2009-05-18
, 20:18
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#92
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Originally Posted by benny1967
Now, none of these things are actually happening in Moscow. While homosexuality is frowned upon and condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church, nobody will track you, take your pictures, or send you to jail for it. You will not even get fired, as long as you are not hitting on your straight coworkers, etc. The most you can hope for is a few slurs every now and then. In order to be beaten, you have to do something really stupid. Because in practice, nobody cares who or what you are. The city is too big for it, too many different people.
Homosexuality was illegal in Austria until 1971. Being member of a gay organization and providing certain kinds of information about homosexuality remained illegal until 1996. .. Some friends went to jail or were blackmailed. Many lost their jobs or businesses without much of a chance to get a foot on the ground again because, even without going to jail, a criminal record simply doesn't look good when applying for a job. ... I know I was observed by the police in those days. We could see them when they took pictures of our meetings from the most ridiculous places.
Now, those guys who came to that demonstration openly defied Moscow government specific refusal to allow the gay parade and got pretty much the same handling as other groups who previously defied government ban on public events, from liberals, to anarchists, to nazis. It is Russia after all, you can't expect Russian government to be nice and humane (see previous Russian history starting with Ivan The Terrible). The government is absolutely horrified by any public events it has no control of, especially after the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. These chinovniks are really small, closed-minded people who just want things to stay the same, everyone be quiet and happy. For them, any change is trouble, as it means being fired (at best) or sentenced (at worst).
Note that this in no way indicates that gays are being systematically persecuted by the state, like they have been in Austria. Basically, nobody but a few clinical homophobes cares.
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2009-05-18
, 20:34
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#93
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Originally Posted by fms
Like being too open about it outside the gay bars...
In order to be beaten, you have to do something really stupid.
Originally Posted by fms
... which was what the whole thing is all about since i-don't-know-when... year after year. Being denied the right to demonstrate for your rights. A mayor refusing this democratic right on the grounds of you being "satanic" doesn't exactly help here.
... Moscow government specific refusal to allow the gay parade
For those who feel oppressed, it doesn't matter much if it's by law, by church, by the society as such (like in 2006 when a number gay bars were occupied and the police didn't do a thing to help the owners) or by a mayor who just gets away with it. This fight's been going on for years and denying it doesn't make it go away.
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2009-05-18
, 20:36
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Posts: 1,540 |
Thanked: 1,045 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
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#94
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Originally Posted by fms
Thanks for that (I'd give you a "thanks" but there's no thanks button on off-topic).
Now, none of these things are actually happening in Moscow. While homosexuality is frowned upon and condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church, nobody will track you, take your pictures, or send you to jail for it. You will not even get fired, as long as you are not hitting on your straight coworkers, etc. The most you can hope for is a few slurs every now and then. In order to be beaten, you have to do something really stupid. Because in practice, nobody cares who or what you are. The city is too big for it, too many different people.
Now, those guys who came to that demonstration openly defied Moscow government specific refusal to allow the gay parade and got pretty much the same handling as other groups who previously defied government ban on public events, from liberals, to anarchists, to nazis. It is Russia after all, you can't expect Russian government to be nice and humane (see previous Russian history starting with Ivan The Terrible). The government is absolutely horrified by any public events it has no control of, especially after the Orange Revolution in Ukraine. These chinovniks are really small, closed-minded people who just want things to stay the same, everyone be quiet and happy. For them, any change is trouble, as it means being fired (at best) or sentenced (at worst).
Note that this in no way indicates that gays are being systematically persecuted by the state, like they have been in Austria. Basically, nobody but a few clinical homophobes cares.
It's very very interesting to hear from people who actually live inside Russia. It's amazing when you think about it, this kind of conversation would have been totally impossible 20 years ago.
It is odd how countries get reported from the outside, Finland only gets mentioned if it relates to Saunas, Father Christmas or Nokia, which isn't exactly the whole story.
During the 1990s, apart from Yeltsin the only Russian politician who made headlines overseas was Zhirinovsky (or however it's transliterated), not because he stood any real chance of power but because he was saying some pretty outrageous things.
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2009-05-18
, 20:53
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Posts: 1,418 |
Thanked: 1,541 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
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#95
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Originally Posted by benny1967
I am not sure what you mean by "too open". I observed gays kissing in the streets and that did not appear to cause any reaction from the crowd whatsoever. Maybe if you do it in front of a crowd of drunk flatheads, or in a church, that would grant you some beating, but then you won't deny you have been asking for it.
Like being too open about it outside the gay bars...
which was what the whole thing is all about since i-don't-know-when... year after year. Being denied the right to demonstrate for your rights.
This fight's been going on for years and denying it doesn't make it go away.
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2009-05-18
, 21:28
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#96
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I'm having a déjà vu now, really...
Just for those who still follow: I found a short summary of the situation as I know it from regular reports here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_ri...ia#Post-Soviet
As for your points, fms, I'm as helpless as I was when I was personally confronted with such statements in my wild, wild youth. I heard all these things. It basically boils down to people who are not affected telling me that I don't have a problem.
I have learned from this experience that if somebody is willing to fight for his rights in spite of high risks (like being arrested, as the protesters were on saturday), there must be something to it. Who am I to tell him everything's OK? Who am I to tell him he should stop complaining because there's other groups who get the same bad treatment? Who am I to tell him that if things get rough, he probably "asked for it"? For Christ's sake!?
If they have a message to get through, then they have a right to be heard. If they're not granted this right by their mayor (and, even more, have to be afraid of physical attacks), we have a problem with human rights. And that's where all this started. Human rights. That's a very different concept from "learning how to play the game with whatever cards you have been dealt."
Just for those who still follow: I found a short summary of the situation as I know it from regular reports here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_ri...ia#Post-Soviet
As for your points, fms, I'm as helpless as I was when I was personally confronted with such statements in my wild, wild youth. I heard all these things. It basically boils down to people who are not affected telling me that I don't have a problem.
I have learned from this experience that if somebody is willing to fight for his rights in spite of high risks (like being arrested, as the protesters were on saturday), there must be something to it. Who am I to tell him everything's OK? Who am I to tell him he should stop complaining because there's other groups who get the same bad treatment? Who am I to tell him that if things get rough, he probably "asked for it"? For Christ's sake!?
If they have a message to get through, then they have a right to be heard. If they're not granted this right by their mayor (and, even more, have to be afraid of physical attacks), we have a problem with human rights. And that's where all this started. Human rights. That's a very different concept from "learning how to play the game with whatever cards you have been dealt."
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2009-05-19
, 15:35
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,087 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#97
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Originally Posted by benny1967
My apologies if the comment hurt but I think it's just a misunderstanding.
Reading this about exactly the media that finally, after all these years, care and dare,... Reading it in the context of an interview given by
Actually my comment was following fms' on the simplification made by mass media about almost any event. The proof of this: the same aggression would have happened in the same time and place without Eurovision around and only a fraction of the same audience would have known (let alone discussed) about it.
This has nothing to do with the struggle, progress and vitories achieved by the gay movement in Western societies, and that includes more and better coverage by the media. My comment is actually not targeted either to the good journalists you mention - but to the headlines + 40 seconds summary + images the big chunk of the audience has seen.
[It was not a frivolous comment either. You here know me for one thing but actually ten years ago most people knew me as a former newspaper journalist writing and teaching about journalism and the new media].
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2009-05-19
, 15:51
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#98
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If they have a message to get through, then they have a right to be heard. If they're not granted this right by their mayor (and, even more, have to be afraid of physical attacks), we have a problem with human rights. And that's where all this started. Human rights. That's a very different concept from "learning how to play the game with whatever cards you have been dealt."
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2009-05-19
, 18:53
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#99
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Originally Posted by qgil
well that really was a misunderstanding then. i read your statement and thought you'd refer to the whole topic, kind of letting us know that all this is probably staged or made up by the media (or both) and we shouldn't believe a word of it because it's only a story to attract viewers. i didn't see the connection to fms's statement which now, as you mention it, is obvious.
My apologies if the comment hurt but I think it's just a misunderstanding.
Actually my comment was following fms' on the simplification made by mass media about almost any event.
and yes, i felt hurt. hurt, angry and ready to strike back. (i still feel this way about other statements made here... i'll better leave instead.)
sorry about that, quim. i owe you a
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2009-05-19
, 20:04
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#100
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Originally Posted by benny1967
If my posts are among those that hurt you, I apologize, that was certainly not the intent
and yes, i felt hurt. hurt, angry and ready to strike back. (i still feel this way about other statements made here... i'll better leave instead.)
As a person who spent nearly a decade of the last century in protests, I just lamented the fact that people are far too often left to make a conclusion based on limited information on a topic or event (the big picture, if you wish).
There was an excellent BBC correspondent called Charles Wheeler who risked his life sneaking into Hungary during the 1956 uprising, and then managed to smuggle exclusive film of the event back out to the BBC. You'd think that would be easily their top story, but they apparently led with news from the Suez crisis instead, which was more directly connected to Britain.