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Benson is offline Benson
2009-05-28 , 18:03
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#751
Originally Posted by Matan View Post
I do not resist "change". I resist a big regression in what is supposed to be the next device in a line of devices that I use a lot.
A small screen is a big regression - the big screen was the defining detail of the line so far.
A high-resolution screen was more defining for me, anyway. Compared to the iPhone, the screen is only 31% bigger, but has 150% more pixels.

To anyone who suggests "hold the device closer to your eyes", I can only suggest - replace your desktop screen with an 8" screen and look closer.
Sure -- where can I find a couple of 8" monitors? I'll need a 1920x1440 and a 1632x1224. (The latter can/should be 7", though.)

First, you're suggesting scaling by a factor of 3 -- I'm suggesting a factor of 1.15. That's 8 times as much extrapolation, with much higher risk of exceeding the linear region, so a lot more people will be unable to do it.

Second, you're either proposing a dramatic reduction in pixel count, or hypothesizing unavailable screens -- and I'm serious, I would be willing to give it a shot, if I could get monitors with that kind of dot pitch.

Third, there are constraints due to the sorts of desks many of us work at; is there room for a monitor 3 times closer, or will it be sitting on top of the keyboard? For handhelds, the controls move with the screen.
Originally Posted by qole
Mark my words; I predict that, no matter what we might be saying about the form factor described in these (apparently) leaked documents, the actual Maemo 5 devices will change the marketplace forever. Just think of the impact that a fully open Linux phone (including the telephony stack, thank you, oFono) is going to have on the industry!
> /quote tag repaired <

Will it be an open phone? Will the t-mobile version allow you to add any repository in application manager? Will it install easyroot package from extras? Will this package even be in extras? Will trying to install a package not approved by Nokia/t-mobile warn you that you will lose your warranty?

I am not willing to bet on the answer to any of those questions.
Which is a shame, because I'd be quite willing to bet on favorable answers to several of those, and it sounds like you're thinking the other way.
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magog is offline magog
2009-05-28 , 18:05
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#752
Originally Posted by qole View Post
Mark my words; I predict that, no matter what we might be saying about the form factor described in these (apparently) leaked documents, the actual Maemo 5 devices will change the marketplace forever. Just think of the impact that a fully open Linux phone (including the telephony stack, thank you, oFono) is going to have on the industry!
I totally agree. I may be nitpicking on the minor features of an unreleased device, but the future is almost here, and it is very exciting.

Even if the N900 on launch isn't as open as it can ideally be, I believe it will be one huge step in the direction of mobile openness. One step at a time...


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johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2009-05-28 , 18:05
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#753
Originally Posted by qole View Post
The mobile industry could use a few more smoking craters. Germany emerged from WWII as an industrial powerhouse because all of their legacy equipment had been cratered in the war.
well... that, and the US paid to rebuild them. Without that step, they wouldn't have come out of WWII quite as nicely. Plus, some of their bridge economy came from some of those legacy factories that didn't get completely wiped out (volkswagen had a long period of using pre-war designs to revitalize itself).
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ARJWright is offline ARJWright
2009-05-28 , 18:07
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#754
Originally Posted by GeraldKo View Post

What I don't get is AJRWright's conclusion that "Nokia will choose one group and rock from there."

It isn't as if Nokia makes only 5 phone models; they make a slew, many of which overlap in terms of target audience. Why walk away from a unique hardware niche? Why not choose more than "one group"?

I'm happy for those who want an open Linux converged device. I can't see why "my group" can't likewise get an updated NIT. I want you to have your cake and for us to have ours, too.
Preface: we are talking about an unfinished OS for a rumored device that has not been officially confirmed except in the offical beta of the unofficial OS

Every product is designed for ONE group of users. Marketers, psychologists, and product designers come to a consensus after some measure of research whom they want to target. The device is made and marketed for them alone.

Those other groups that are close to that targeted group display varying levels of interest in the product/service, and from there design/marketing enchancements are made in an effort to further define the core of the product while making the ONE group a larger net than was originally cast.

With Maemo, this is pretty clear that it was the philosophy, and in reinventing the platform for Maemo 5 and beyond, another look was taken at the potential users and developers and some target was identified. Not everyone in this current group will qualify as those who are targeted for this release (speaking of the OS). However, the family of devices (hey, remember when that comment was made; I don't have a link off hand) is unveiled, those who might not like the software completly would be marketed to because the hardware is the compelling factor - this can also work in reverse.

No one has confirmed the specs, nor anything more than two possible devices. No hardware configurations, nor screen sizes, or anything else for that matter that you can purchase right now is certain. What is certain is that Nokia has targeted A group for this release, and while there is some overlap with the current fourm of users, its not meant to include all of them. If you want Nokia to make a device that works for you, appear on their front doorstep with a few billion and a convincing marketing case for them making a few billion more when you leave their presence, and show them how to make that device.

I will say though, you are probably 7 years behind where they are thinking, so you better hurry up and get that billion to their door now
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sjgadsby is offline sjgadsby
2009-05-28 , 18:12
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#755
Originally Posted by Matan View Post
To anyone who suggests "hold the device closer to your eyes", I can only suggest...
I'm not going to defend the smaller screen in the leaked specs, but you've gotten me thinking...

- replace your desktop screen with an 8" screen and look closer.
People are doing that with netbooks now, aren't they?

Replace your living room TV with a 4" set and sit closer.
Our very community here now commonly watches movies and shows on 4" screens. Movies and shows that--only a few years ago--we would have watched on big, living room TVs.

The Internet--on personal, small screen, lean in computers--cut into shared, big screen, sit back television time. But the computers weren't small enough and couldn't take the Internet too enough places, so they shrank to netbooks.

MP3 players were an early indicator--allowing owners to trade in audio quality to make their music portable and more personal. Now it's clear the trend is spreading and accelerating.

I'm running into more and more folks who are canceling their cable or satellite television service as Hulu and torrents suit their needs. And among those who have kept traditional television service, there's a growing interest in Slingbox/HAVA devices that deliver the goods to personal, portable, small screens.

I'm still in favor of a ~4-inch tablet screen, rather than a ~3.5-inch phone screen, but there's definitely a growing crowd of "I want everything in my phone" folks out there. Here's hoping Maemo delivers what that crowd wants, explodes in popularity, and still gives us tablet obsessed faithful what we need.
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fpp is offline fpp
2009-05-28 , 18:26
Posts: 2,853 | Thanked: 968 times | Joined on Nov 2005
#756
Originally Posted by ARJWright View Post
There's nothing wrong with having your preference, but as you and others will continue to notice - tech is transforming and there are 3 generations of users to cater to. Nokia will choose one group and rock from there. Either it works for you, or you adjust and it works sotra for you. No need to cry that your milk is no longer good enough, just use what works best and be realistic about your expectations based on what you need and can afford.
Yup, I'm an old fart all right, so set in his ways he can't even see the writing on the wall.

But you, my friend, sound just like the young Bob Dylan is the sixties :
Come mothers and fathers throughout the land
And don't criticize what you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
Just look at him now :-)
 

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penguinbait is offline penguinbait
2009-05-28 , 18:56
Posts: 3,096 | Thanked: 1,525 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ Michigan, USA
#757
Desperado, why dont you come to your senses?
You been out ridin fences for so long now
Oh, youre a hard one
I know that you got your reasons
These things that are pleasin you
Can hurt you somehow

Don you draw the queen of diamonds, boy
Shell beat you if shes able
You know the queen of heats is always your best bet

Now it seems to me, some fine things
Have been laid upon your table
But you only want the ones that you cant get

Desperado, oh, you aint gettin no youger
Your pain and your hunger, theyre drivin you home
And freedom, oh freedom well, thats just some people talkin
Your prison is walking through this world all alone

Dont your feet get cold in the winter time?
The sky wont snow and the sun wont shine
Its hard to tell the night time from the day
Youre loosin all your highs and lows
Aint it funny how the feeling goes away?

Desperado, why dont you come to your senses?
Come down from your fences, open the gate
It may be rainin, but theres a rainbow above you
You better let somebody love you, before its too late!


I don't know, it just somehow seemed appropiate
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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2009-05-28 , 19:10
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#758
Originally Posted by fpp View Post
1) upgradability : tablets still don't have decent competition right now, but phones are a dime a dozen. This is my fourth (second-hand) modem/phone since I got started with the 770. Along the way I went from EDGE to 3G to 3G+. What if I buy a 3G+ N900 this year, and 4G starts rolling out next year ?
You take note about the plans of WWAN providers in your home/work/travel area.

2) independence : tablets are unshackled, phones aren't. Over the last two years I switched operators three times in the hunt for the best data plan. What if the N900 is sold by only one operator in my country, like the iPhone was until recently ?
Not here. I bought my phone unbranded and without SIM lock. Yes, it is a bit more expensive then, but you get back liberty.

3) dezoning : you could buy (or sell) a 770 or N800 anywhere in the world, it didn't make any difference. With the N810 there is the pesky nag of the keyboard layout, but one may choose to compromise on that. But if your cell radio is CDMA or GSM or whatever, you're pretty well bound to those networks.
If you go to an other country for a long time you ask your agent/employer to give a temporary device, you use your phone which is not SIM locked with a local SIM-only card, or you buy a cheap device from a local store. Or you use the WLAN on your device. The WiFi on a phone will work in the same regions as the Nokia 770 or Nokia N8x0. Dezoning exists, and will always exist. For example, don't take a GPS device with you to Egypt.

4) battery life : two devices means two batteries. The tablet's takes care of computing, the phone's takes care of transmission. And those 3G+ speeds are real greedy leeches. My E71 has the same battery capacity as the tablets - that's twice the juice.
Yes, this is nice, you could put a N810 battery in your E71 and continue. Or the other way around. But you can also take with you a reserve battery instead of the N810. Given the N900 is a Nokia device the battery is replacable... yay!

5) versatility : yes, I use my tablet a lot. But sometimes I don't have it with me, or it's just quicker and simpler to whip out the phone for something really simple (weather etc.). The phone also does VoIP more naturally and with less fuss than the tablet. Then again I sometimes spend a day in a meeting with my netbook, which I also tether to the phone for net access. That's three devices I can use that single data plan with ; four, if you count my home desktop when my DSL line is fubared ; six, given that I happen to have three tablets :-)
Wether you have N900 plus to tether netbook, laptop, PC, DAP or wether you have E71 to tether N810, netbook, laptop, PC, DAP doesn't make a huge difference versatility wise.

6) resilience : phone dead ? Buy/borrow another and stick the SIM inside.
Maybe you better build a portable 3G <-> WLAN/BlueTooth AP.

Stuck in a corner of a room with poor reception ? Position the phone a few meters away near a window and use your tablet/netbook from your seat. Etc.
..and then see a glass washer steal your phone from the window.

Originally Posted by fms View Post
Man, I dunno about your iPod, but in a 5800 it is a problem.
If you lie down on your left or right side and have your head on the pillow you look to the device normal while the accelerometer thinks you're looking in a 90 degrees angle. It doesn't know its owner is lying in this position. Its an exception really, and justifies the ability to put off the accelerometer like you can put off a GPS or BlueTooth.

Not the accelerometer itself, mind you, but the way it "helpfully" rotates your screen.
So it is a software problem?

And I still do not understand how it is related to the smallish screen size planned for N900.
Because being able to change your mode from landscape to portrait allows you to use your screen better in some circumstances.

Not giving any. First, I was not talking about wanting or not wanting to buy it, but simply of not being the "target audience" for the device. Secondly, notice that I have used "pretty much none of us". So, you've still got your ticket into the target audience lounge
Its not exactly clear how many potential customers are former Maemo/NIT users. Former OpenMoko customers might just as well be interested in Nokia N900.

Actually, it does, if you consider that many consumers (adults too) would rather save those extra $400.
Save extra $400? Then don't buy any mobile device... it just doesn't make sense to compare a $200 entry level touchscreen phone to a $600 flagship product.

Originally Posted by GeraldKo View Post
[...]
I'm happy for those who want an open Linux converged device. I can't see why "my group" can't likewise get an updated NIT. I want you to have your cake and for us to have ours, too.
Get your stuff together and develop some concensus on the alternative user scenarios. I mean that with the hardware specifications included. If you can do that it might open Nokia's eyes. Or, someone else will see a viable business in the concept. The source code is out there... (Maemo/Mer)
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fms is offline fms
2009-05-28 , 19:22
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#759
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
If you lie down on your left or right side and have your head on the pillow you look to the device normal while the accelerometer thinks you're looking in a 90 degrees angle. It doesn't know its owner is lying in this position. Its an exception really, and justifies the ability to put off the accelerometer like you can put off a GPS or BlueTooth.
(scratching head now) What pillow? Did I mention any damn pillows? All I said was that automatic screen rotation does not even work well in similar Nokia devices.

Because being able to change your mode from landscape to portrait allows you to use your screen better in some circumstances.
And how does it put more text onto the screen without making it smaller (and thus less readable)?

Save extra $400? Then don't buy any mobile device... it just doesn't make sense to compare a $200 entry level touchscreen phone to a $600 flagship product.
Oh, really? As far as I am concerned, the only difference between "entry level" (5800) and "flagship" (N97) is the keyboard (and the fact that sturdier 5800 will last longer). The rest is marketing garbage few people care about, no matter what marketing gurus say. And, speaking of touchscreen phones, how does N900 fit here? The way I see it, N900 is an N97 with Linux. Is Linux going to be its selling advantage? If you worked in marketing, would you dare to build your marketing campaign on top of this "advantage"?
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YoDude is offline YoDude
2009-05-28 , 19:27
Posts: 2,869 | Thanked: 1,784 times | Joined on Feb 2007 @ Po' Bo'. PA
#760
Originally Posted by penguinbait View Post
Desperado, why dont you come to your senses?
You been out ridin fences for so long now
Oh, youre a hard one
I know that you got your reasons
These things that are pleasin you
Can hurt you somehow

Don you draw the queen of diamonds, boy
Shell beat you if shes able
You know the queen of heats is always your best bet

Now it seems to me, some fine things
Have been laid upon your table
But you only want the ones that you cant get

Desperado, oh, you aint gettin no youger
Your pain and your hunger, theyre drivin you home
And freedom, oh freedom well, thats just some people talkin
Your prison is walking through this world all alone

Dont your feet get cold in the winter time?
The sky wont snow and the sun wont shine
Its hard to tell the night time from the day
Youre loosin all your highs and lows
Aint it funny how the feeling goes away?

Desperado, why dont you come to your senses?
Come down from your fences, open the gate
It may be rainin, but theres a rainbow above you
You better let somebody love you, before its too late!


I don't know, it just somehow seemed appropiate
Now here's a good example of differences of opinion. To me...

Well, I heard some people talkin' just the other day
And they said you were gonna put me on a shelf
But let me tell you I got some news for you
And you'll soon find out it's true
And then you'll have to eat your lunch all by yourself
'Cause I'm already gone
And I'm feelin' strong
I will sing this vict'ry song, woo, hoo,hoo,woo,hoo,hoo

Seemed like it may be more appropriate.

...woo, hoo,hoo, heh... now, woo,hoo,hoo
 

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