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fms is offline fms
2009-07-07 , 11:26
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#21
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
the problem with "evil" is that anybody's evil by somebody's moral standards.
We can choose the core set of standards consistent with what is known as "western civilization" and use it as the minimal criterion of evilness. So, no real problem here.

- i don't think governments, especially foreign governments, should be judged as "good" or "evil".
That is a different issue: by their nature, the "good" and "evil" designations can only be applied to the members of human society. As governments, corporations, etc. are not really members of a human society, they cannot be judged as "good" or "evil". Ironically, a lot of pets (dogs, cats, etc.) can though, as they effectively become society members, to a certain degree.
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geneven is offline geneven
2009-07-07 , 12:49
Posts: 5,795 | Thanked: 3,151 times | Joined on Feb 2007 @ Agoura Hills Calif
#22
Originally Posted by YoDude View Post
It is not about you or me. It is about the flow of information on a forum...
Information flows extremely well on a forum, you think, when there are hundreds of messages in a thread and someone comes along who has a simple question? I don't think so.

In fact, just today I looked at a long thread and wondered if there was anything about a recent upgrade in it. I wasn't about to read all those messages going back forever just to find out, so I decided to forget the whole thing.

Now THAT'S effective communication?

What it is, is information piled up for the convenience of the archivist and the technically obsessed.
 
ColdFusion is offline ColdFusion
2009-07-07 , 14:21
Posts: 397 | Thanked: 227 times | Joined on May 2007
#23
Originally Posted by fms View Post
We can choose the core set of standards consistent with what is known as "western civilization" and use it as the minimal criterion of evilness. So, no real problem here.
Isn't that a bit arrogant? Just because you were raised in a "western society" doesn't mean it has the best "core standards" for everyone. That's why a lot of people dislike USA, you think that the only way is the American way.

Originally Posted by fms View Post
That is a different issue: by their nature, the "good" and "evil" designations can only be applied to the members of human society. As governments, corporations, etc. are not really members of a human society, they cannot be judged as "good" or "evil". Ironically, a lot of pets (dogs, cats, etc.) can though, as they effectively become society members, to a certain degree.
There is no good and evil in nature. They aren't absolute. They are dictated by the moral standards of the current society. And societies and moral standards change through history. Even today we have such a big diversity of right and wrong in the world that one can not say with certainty what is good and evil.
Abiding by some moral standards is the social contract one is willing to sign in order to live in a specific society. There isn't yet a world wide human society. Even from neighbourhood to neighbourhood the moral standards can vary significantly.
 
fms is offline fms
2009-07-07 , 14:37
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#24
Originally Posted by ColdFusion View Post
Isn't that a bit arrogant? Just because you were raised in a "western society" doesn't mean it has the best "core standards" for everyone.
Not really. Note the word "core". By this word, I mean really basic stuff - do not kill, do not steal, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, etc. This stuff is pretty much universal for everybody, mainly because it keeps the society together.

There is no good and evil in nature. They aren't absolute. They are dictated by the moral standards of the current society. And societies and moral standards change through history.
See, even as the moral standards change, there is still a set of taboos that are stable from one society to another. So, this is the bare minimum that you can use for judgement.
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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-07-07 , 14:56
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#25
Originally Posted by fms View Post
Not really. Note the word "core". By this word, I mean really basic stuff - do not kill, do not steal, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, etc. This stuff is pretty much universal for everybody, mainly because it keeps the society together.
See, even as the moral standards change, there is still a set of taboos that are stable from one society to another. So, this is the bare minimum that you can use for judgement.
And yet we have the death penalty in a lot of countries, soldiers who are trained to kill, police with a monopoly of force, laws that (can) limit freedom(s), taxes (not exactly stealing, but... ). Why all this if love of life, 'core values' and the benefit of a common good is so universal in human societies ?
 
fms is offline fms
2009-07-07 , 15:14
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#26
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
And yet we have the death penalty in a lot of countries, soldiers who are trained to kill, police with a monopoly of force, laws that (can) limit freedom(s), taxes (not exactly stealing, but... ).
See my comment above about governments not falling under "good"/"evil" categories. A government may tax or execute you, same as a truck may strike you while you are crossing the street, or an alligator may pull you into the water (if you get real close to him). This does not make the government, or the truck, or the alligator "evil" because none of them are human to begin with.
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Paxicide is offline Paxicide
2009-07-07 , 15:52
Posts: 66 | Thanked: 64 times | Joined on Apr 2009
#27
Originally Posted by fms View Post
I think people exercising extreme and pointless political correctness everywhere should be grouped into the same bin with religious fundamentalists and other totalitarian extremists.
Yes some people would agree with you. Your argument is the same that was made against Rosa Parks.

She was considered by many as "excercising extreme and pointless political correctness." I will not give you tit-for-tat, as I can see your mind set.
 
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qole is offline qole
2009-07-07 , 16:30
Moderator | Posts: 7,109 | Thanked: 8,820 times | Joined on Oct 2007 @ Vancouver, BC, Canada
#28
What? No, Ms. Parks was doing exactly the opposite. There was nothing "politically correct" about her decision to refuse to give up her seat on the bus.

Political correctness is all about not rocking the boat, not getting people upset, and toeing the line.

I don't know what you think it is.

ColdFusion already invoked Godwin, so I guess you can reference the detestable KKK.

EDIT: It was Texrat who Godwined the thread.
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Last edited by qole; 2009-07-07 at 20:54.
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2009-07-07 , 19:49
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#29
Originally Posted by fms View Post
See my comment above about governments not falling under "good"/"evil" categories. A government may tax or execute you, same as a truck may strike you while you are crossing the street, or an alligator may pull you into the water (if you get real close to him). This does not make the government, or the truck, or the alligator "evil" because none of them are human to begin with.
Let me put it this way. If you are a soldier, you are trained to kill. If you make the assumption that killing under a command (which was also given by a *person*) is okay, then the whole point of consistent moral standards about life is lost. If they can be broken with an acceptable excuse, they're not universal standards. There IS NO consistent set of taboos present in all past and present human societies.
 
fms is offline fms
2009-07-07 , 20:01
Posts: 1,418 | Thanked: 1,541 times | Joined on Feb 2008
#30
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Let me put it this way. If you are a soldier, you are trained to kill. If you make the assumption that killing under a command (which was also given by a *person*) is okay, then the whole point of consistent moral standards about life is lost. If they can be broken with an acceptable excuse, they're not universal standards. There IS NO consistent set of taboos present in all past and present human societies.
Well, then do not become a soldier. Personally, I do no consider soldiers, police, security guards, and other similar government employees fully human, precisely for the reason that they are not constrained by the same social rules as the rest of us. When at work, they are basically an extension of the government, able to rid you of property, freedom, or even life, and therefore to be avoided as much as possible.

Notice that it renders void multiple taboos that would normally apply to humans. For example, killing a bunch of civilians is a terrorist act but killing soldiers at a blockpost is usually considered an act of resistance (US would like us to believe it is still a terrorist act, but few people are buying this viewpoint).

Important note: these guys voluntarily discard common ethics (often replacing it with military pride and other such nonsense) so that you do not have to.
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Last edited by fms; 2009-07-07 at 20:04.
 
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