krisse | # 1 | 2010-01-06, 03:16 | Report

The point of the Maemo community, indeed any computing community, is to make software and hardware better. The best way of doing that is to say what works, what doesn't, and suggesting how problems could be fixed. If you do all of these things simultaneously, then that's constructive criticism.

Certain people on this forum are completely misusing that term, posting hyperbole after hyperbole, missing out the part about "what works", focusing on "what doesn't", failing to suggest any way for things to be fixed, and then when someone says they're wrong, they reply that they're just giving "constructive criticism". They're hiding behind that term and giving it a bad name.

Without mentioning any particular threads or users, if people start discussions with topics like "This device sucks!" or "This community sucks!", or say that there's no hope for a device or platform, or say that a particular manufacturer makes nothing but garbage, or post photos of a damaged device without saying how it got damaged... that's not constructive criticism. Those are just attacks, which encourage counter-attacks, which ends up in a depressing cycle of pointless and stupid fanboy/fangirl bickering.

None of us are buying these devices to bicker over, we're buying them to have fun and do useful stuff with. Couldn't we just focus on making all platforms and all devices as useful and as fun as possible, without the bitterness? Like I said in another thread you don't really get this kind of bitterness in communities which discuss other topics. When did you last see a cookery community erupt in a flamewar over which brand of frozen pastry is best?

The best kind of constructive criticism is not positive or negative but factual: a road map explaining the current situation, explaining where we need to get to, and then detailing the route that would get us from the first place to the other. It doesn't really care that much over "who wins", all it cares about is making everything better.

Too many people on here are treating this as an opportunity for us vs them sniping.

It's not helping to build any sense of community if people feel they have to be on one side or another.

It's also not going to help any developers or manufacturers improve their product if criticism says there's no hope of improvements.

This is particularly bad in the open source community when supporters of different OSS start bickering. The only people who benefit from that are supporters of closed source.

For example open source fans should be happy to see Maemo and Android receiving ever-increasing amounts of backing from manufacturers, and simultaneously Symbian going open source. This combination of platforms means that for the first time in history we may see a majority of computing devices running on open source... isn't that a good thing we should be happy about?

Couldn't we have fun instead of having arguments?

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Last edited by krisse; 2010-01-06 at 03:22.

Texrat | # 2 | 2010-01-06, 03:30 | Report

Well said krisse... but I hope you're not expecting reason from any sociopaths.

krisse | # 3 | 2010-01-06, 03:37 | Report

...and I should add I've been guilty of this too and really regret joining in with it. Life is too short...


They'll probably use this thread as yet another opportunity to start up another flamewar. ("Well of course there's bitterness here, Maemo Talk sucks man! You should be posting on community XYZ!")

RevdKathy | # 4 | 2010-01-06, 05:41 | Report

Krisse, I think you're right in every respect but one. I have seen far, far worse flame wars errupt over the placing of a nacelle, which deck crew quarters are on and most especially which fictional character is in love with which other fictional character in sci-fi forums.

The problem here is that it matters. If people post unrestrained negativity it can affect product and platform development. There's a lot of money riding on the Maemo venture, and that means that people being destructive for fun (as some, strangely do on the internet) are potentially doing damage.

I think it's great credit to the community that these people are allowed to stay. In the sci-fi forums just posting "Kirk sucks!" is the very definition of trolling and more than a few posts will get you banned. I doubt you'd last even that long if you posted that sort of negativity in a forum run for a closed-source platform. But we allow these people to stay.

I'm not honestly sure with some people if they are genuinely negative about the device or they just enjoy internet-squabbling and winding people up. Some of them don't seem to even own a maemo device.

I have stayed out of the android threads: I am still cross with BBC news for making a huge fuss over the new google phone when even their geek division has never mentioned Maemo. But I've no doubt it is more of what I've seen before in attitudes to other platform users.

I guess I have an advantage as a multi-faith worker. I long ago learned that what is right for me is not right for everyone and that if I listen to others whose choices and needs are different from mine I might learn something. The sad reality is most people need to evangelise their position whether in religion or device choice. Some do it in pleasant, friendly and harmless ways. Others use violence. Short of excluding them there's not much we can do

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Last edited by RevdKathy; 2010-01-06 at 05:46.

Texrat | # 5 | 2010-01-06, 05:52 | Report

I am sooo nominating you for the next council.

krisse | # 6 | 2010-01-06, 05:57 | Report

Kathy, yes, sci-fi does seem to be on a par with gadgets as a magnet for people who take these things too seriously.

I should stress that I'm not just talking about Maemo-bashers, but the entire attitude of thinking that we have to take sides. Practically every gadget I've ever used has had at least something that other gadgets can learn from, but "haters" want us to completely disown whatever it is they hate.

If we start dismissing a device purely to make our own favourite look good, we're going to miss out on potential improvements. Really we should look at device variety as a good thing because it provides a constant flow of new ideas. And if you look at what professionals say in interviews, it's pretty much the same thing: they welcome newcomers in a market because it provides everyone with a new perspective on how to do things.

It's only the fans, marketers and media that turn this into something bitter, but the actual developers and engineers just want to do the best they can. If we're serious about the community helping to create a better platform, then we need to be more like the engineers/developers and less like the fans/marketers.

The other thing is, different people have different needs, tastes and budgets. There is never ever going to be a single device that suits everyone. Some people on here fail to recognise this diversity of needs.

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Last edited by krisse; 2010-01-06 at 06:22.

geneven | # 7 | 2010-01-06, 06:36 | Report

Comments about how well other communities get together are just plain wrong; I was present at a war to the death between two rival San Diego amateur astronomy groups, and why there weren't mass arrests is beyond me.

My personal bitterness towards this site is that I think it pretends to be freer than it is; it all started when ITT was liberated with a fake vote. Now the outcomes of most questions are essentially rigged. However, I'm not always bitter and rarely start 'this device sucks' threads.

zehjotkah | # 8 | 2010-01-06, 06:43 | Report

as we talk about constructive criticism, I've received a private message from our friend "mysticrokks", entitled "******" with the following content: "you are one sad *****

get a life "

I think that this is a good example what not constructive criticism is.

Have a nice day!

RevdKathy | # 9 | 2010-01-06, 08:00 | Report

You know, if you swapped 'platform/device in that post for religion/philosophy/world-view, you could post it on any liberal theology forum.

The problem is that many people never got beyond "This is right for me so you must be wrong" to find "This is right for me - what's right for you?"

I wonder how much of that is because some people have come to believe that that sort of language and content is the norm for internet communication. I have certainly met people who were perfectly pleasant in real life who mutated into monosyllabic flamers in front of their screens. The anonymity of the net allows people to be rude in ways they never would to one's face. It is, sadly, one of the down-sides of this form of communication.

The best advice is to completely ignore it: there's not much point in engaging that sort of content. And don't let it get you down - anyone who has to resort to that sort of stuff has a poor command of vocabulary. (I used to know someone who could write flames in language even I had to look up )

One of the ways Maemo.org can reduce it is by encouraging the Meet-ups. People are much less rude once they've met you.

(Small warning - I'm hatching a plan for a UK users meet - that's users, not devs, just for a day out togther) ((Edit - I don't mean devs won't be welcome just that the plan is to focus on what n900 can do, not how to develop for it. Possibly some sort of treasure hunt event in the spring))

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Last edited by RevdKathy; 2010-01-06 at 09:05.

krisse | # 10 | 2010-01-06, 10:00 | Report

Yes, philosophical topics are another magnet for these attitudes. Oh dear...


I've noticed that in certain people when they get behind the wheel of their car.


Yes, I would definitely agree with this.

No matter what the hobby or interest, ties between members are strengthened by meet-ups. Is there any kind of Maemo forum meet-up planned? Would Nokia or anyone else perhaps sponsor such an event?