Why is N900 so slow? - Page 15 - maemo.org

pksky9 | # 141 | 2010-01-21, 23:46 | Report

I love my N900 it is fast and it does multitasking

MontyBravo | # 142 | 2010-01-21, 23:48 | Report

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post

Yes, you actually are wrong. But as I told your tag-team partner, I'm done trying to shine the light. Take comfort in your beliefs, and have a nice day.

Ah inability to talk about your views and back them up with your "data analyst" mathematics. shame , I was looking forward to you explaining the flaw in my logic...

no drama, you have stated I am wrong, let it be known it must be true!

cheers,

lol

MB

chrisp7 | # 143 | 2010-01-21, 23:48 | Report

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post

You edited your post after I quoted. Nice.

Odd... I see the defensiveness coming from your direction. I'm being very calm and patient with a couple of guys ranting their heads off with some very disingenuous points.

But that's enough for today. You both continue to grossly misunderstand almost every word I type. Continuing with that would be foolish. So if you're looking for a semantical win, you've got it. Enjoy!

Not sure what you mean, if I edited, I edited within 30 secs Id guess, hence the post not acknowledging the edit.

err yeah I am a little heated because Im frustrated that some people cant seem to take any criticism of the N900. You post below, effectively discounting a lot of the criticism of the N900 as 'noise' seems rather closed minded to me. I understand there are a lot of issues and conflicting reasons for such problems however I find a lot of problems seem to be batted away with the response, but mine is fine (Im referring to many people who have posted in this thread - your comment was obviously made in jest..I hope

)

PS Calling my argument disingenuous is rather insulting.

Originally Posted by

Works fine for me.

Really though: how many is that out of the whole, and how many in that set are failing to configure properly?

Data without context is noise.

Last edited by chrisp7; 2010-01-21 at 23:53.

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Texrat | # 144 | 2010-01-22, 00:03 | Report

Originally Posted by chrisp7 View Post

Not sure what you mean, if I edited, I edited within 30 secs Id guess, hence the post not acknowledging the edit.

err yeah I am a little heated because Im frustrated that some people cant seem to take any for of criticism about the N900. You post below, effectively discounting a lot of the criticism of the N900 as 'noise' seems rather closed minded to me. I understand there are a lot of issues and conflicting reasons for such problems however I find a lot of problems seem to be batted away with the response, but mine is fine (Im referring to many people who have posted in this thread - your comment was obviously made in jest..I hope

)

Ok, that approach got me to change my mind on further replies.

I already explained this in the thread once but I'll try again...

First, it's a mistake to try to glean too much from a talk forum anyway... especially in this context. Only people with problems report problems! And they tend to congregate in threads where problems are reported (usually started by a problem reporter). This creates the illusion that the majority has problems. But that's an error of perception, and it defies reason.

If I sold 100 devices, and 5 people complained, that means 95 didn't. Clear non-complaining majority. What's hard to get from that is the detail-- how many in that majority complained elsewhere? How many are easier to please? How many lucked into a good lot?

Trying to apply significance to forum complaints tends to be foolhardy. No serious QA guy or statistician will give a thread full of rants much weight. There need to be the proper controls, the proper contexts-- including production details, product usage, user expectations, etc. It's not as simple as "5 guys report a problem".

That said-- significance CAN be found in low numbers where catastrophic failure is involved... like the usb breakage I reported. And sure enough, more reports showed up quickly.

But for vague, non-fatal complaints like "slowness", etc, those are rarely indicative of a universal problem UNLESS there's a clear majority reporting it. Again, that was the case with internet video on previous devices-- and the complaints were qualified by the revelation that hardware shortcomings were involved.

I'm not dismissing your concerns at all. I've had issues with products and it's not fun. All I've been trying to do is add perspective here, and it's been unfairly misconstrued. As one of your council reps I love to help you guys, even the noisemakers-- but if you're gonna abuse that and give me unwarranted grief, where's my motivation?

Try assuming the best about people upfront instead of the worst. That's my preaching for today.

Originally Posted by

PS Calling my argument disingenuous is rather insulting.

So is making unfair assertions about someone's intent.

Last edited by Texrat; 2010-01-22 at 01:18.

Laughingstok | # 145 | 2010-01-22, 00:12 | Report

This thread should have been "Is your N900 slow?" with a poll.

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MontyBravo | # 146 | 2010-01-22, 00:22 | Report

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post

Ok, that approach got me to change my mind on further replies.

If I sold 100 devices, and 5 people complained, that means 95 didn't. Clear non-complaining majority. What's hard to get from that is the detail-- how many in that majority complained elsewhere? How many are easier to please? How many lucked into a good lot?

Your a data analyst and your honestly state this as a factual basis ? shocking!

Let me explain my comments.

Non reports do not dictate the amount of product errors. Yes complaints will become more forthcoming in fault based threads. There is a user barrier to starting a post being negative in a community based on the device. One someone has started with faults others will feel more at home in discussing this.

Anyone that reads the forum will note that any negative comments are bashed (as well as being sensibly discussed by forum members).

You are of course correct that the user experience will be dictated by expectations (well actually im putting that out there to be honest lol),

BUT!

simply put again , just to make it clear,

this is not the only reporting channel and the large majority of owners will not be reporting in this forum.

Its also the case that only a small amount of people which actually have faults will bother to report them on here.

that means that a small number of people reporting faults have a greater statistical importance and weight.

So to summarise your point I have quoted is not correct. I am sure since you are a data analyst you understand "weighted" data and the impact this has. This is what I am referring to. Hopefully i am using the correct terminology? I would imagine the meaning is clear.

And I do agree the data means a lot more with tight data control, but this does not invalidate user response on this forum.

I do understand you get lots of trolls on here. I am actually not one of them , please feel free to explain how my logic is incorrect. Not in one reply to me have you attempted to do this. And I dont need you to preach but thanks for the thought

cheers,

MB

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alexreed88 | # 147 | 2010-01-22, 00:49 | Report

Ugh why isnt this topic dead already..lol

Texrat | # 148 | 2010-01-22, 01:17 | Report

Originally Posted by MontyBravo View Post

Your a data analyst and your honestly state this as a factual basis ? shocking!

Let me explain my comments.

Non reports do not dictate the amount of product errors. Yes complaints will become more forthcoming in fault based threads. There is a user barrier to starting a post being negative in a community based on the device. One someone has started with faults others will feel more at home in discussing this.

Anyone that reads the forum will note that any negative comments are bashed (as well as being sensibly discussed by forum members).

You are of course correct that the user experience will be dictated by expectations (well actually im putting that out there to be honest lol),

BUT!

simply put again , just to make it clear,

this is not the only reporting channel and the large majority of owners will not be reporting in this forum.

Its also the case that only a small amount of people which actually have faults will bother to report them on here.

that means that a small number of people reporting faults have a greater statistical importance and weight.

So to summarise your point I have quoted is not correct. I am sure since you are a data analyst you understand "weighted" data and the impact this has. This is what I am referring to. Hopefully i am using the correct terminology? I would imagine the meaning is clear.

And I do agree the data means a lot more with tight data control, but this does not invalidate user response on this forum.

I do understand you get lots of trolls on here. I am actually not one of them , please feel free to explain how my logic is incorrect. Not in one reply to me have you attempted to do this. And I dont need you to preach but thanks for the thought

cheers,

MB

Your logic is incorrect because without the context I've already mentioned the isolated, unqualified number of raw complaints tend to be near useless. And I'd love to know where you learned what you base your position on, because again, it's completely in error. You bounce a statement like "a small number of people reporting faults have a greater statistical importance and weight" off a six sigma black belt and you're in for a lecture.

Non reports indicate the norm. Without the norm, you don't know defect rates. Best way to get the norm of course is getting at production data and distribution data. Without that, you need to conduct a scientific study that takes into account usage, demographics and other data. Nothing remotely resembling a scientific study going on here. Valid complaints maybe, but unscientific as a "study" and not robust enough for analysis.

And the smaller your sample size, the less reliable your assumptions. If 10 devices are involved in your original lot (which in this case is worse: an unknown), then yes, 5 is an indicator of something seriously wrong. If it's 100, it's something worth investigating. If it's 1000, you've probably got outliers. Continue ad nauseum.

You keep wanting to make the case that X number of complaints out of an unknown at-large quantity not only represent the norm (which is crazy enough), but you seem to be saying that the smaller the X, the better!

Not buying it. And no, weighting doesn't help your case, sorry.

References:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/r60k11l76u5816ku/

http://www.isixsigma.com/forum/ask_d...stId=5&catId=6

http://www.sixsigmaspc.com/dictionar...litylevel.html

http://www.aafes.com/qa/docs/AQL_Tab...l_2.5_norm.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_rate

chrisp7 | # 149 | 2010-01-22, 11:03 | Report

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post

Ok, that approach got me to change my mind on further replies.

I already explained this in the thread once but I'll try again...

First, it's a mistake to try to glean too much from a talk forum anyway... especially in this context. Only people with problems report problems! And they tend to congregate in threads where problems are reported (usually started by a problem reporter). This creates the illusion that the majority has problems. But that's an error of perception, and it defies reason.

If I sold 100 devices, and 5 people complained, that means 95 didn't. Clear non-complaining majority. What's hard to get from that is the detail-- how many in that majority complained elsewhere? How many are easier to please? How many lucked into a good lot?

Trying to apply significance to forum complaints tends to be foolhardy. No serious QA guy or statistician will give a thread full of rants much weight. There need to be the proper controls, the proper contexts-- including production details, product usage, user expectations, etc. It's not as simple as "5 guys report a problem".

That said-- significance CAN be found in low numbers where catastrophic failure is involved... like the usb breakage I reported. And sure enough, more reports showed up quickly.

But for vague, non-fatal complaints like "slowness", etc, those are rarely indicative of a universal problem UNLESS there's a clear majority reporting it. Again, that was the case with internet video on previous devices-- and the complaints were qualified by the revelation that hardware shortcomings were involved.

I'm not dismissing your concerns at all. I've had issues with products and it's not fun. All I've been trying to do is add perspective here, and it's been unfairly misconstrued. As one of your council reps I love to help you guys, even the noisemakers-- but if you're gonna abuse that and give me unwarranted grief, where's my motivation?

Try assuming the best about people upfront instead of the worst. That's my preaching for today.

So is making unfair assertions about someone's intent.

Im not sure why we are getting to a statistical issue, my point that I have made an over and over is that the software just isnt good enough at present imo - which opinion concurs with the majority (going by reviews, blogs, this forum etc). It seems that you disagree and consider this overwhelming evidence 'noise'? Thats my point to you. I have no idea how you got to this idea that Im saying you should listen to the minority, when the mainstream are saying exactly what Im saying. If the device was catastrophically broken then yes the complaints would be overwhelming - but the N900 is broken in such a way, I have never said it is.

I just wanted to clarify my point as you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick regarding my argument.

Originally Posted by

But for vague, non-fatal complaints like "slowness", etc, those are rarely indicative of a universal problem UNLESS there's a clear majority reporting it. Again, that was the case with internet video on previous devices-- and the complaints were qualified by the revelation that hardware shortcomings were involved.

I'm not dismissing your concerns at all. I've had issues with products and it's not fun. All I've been trying to do is add perspective here, and it's been unfairly misconstrued. As one of your council reps I love to help you guys, even the noisemakers-- but if you're gonna abuse that and give me unwarranted grief, where's my motivation?

Now you are the one who has completely misconstrued my argument. As for "slowness" I haven't been the one saying, just 'its slow', you seem to have mistaken me for someone that is just plain saying the N900 is rubbish/a a troll - I have said countless times in this thread that I love my N900. I specifically havent gone through a list of what I think is wrong with the N900 because I didnt want to insight any arguments!

My bone is frustration - frustration with the way Nokia releases their products, being a bit of Nokia fanboy I want them to improve, otherwise I see big issues in the future with Nokia. I simply cant see how you can/could have possibly argued with this. Its ridiculous that this even got this far.

That is all.

And I never want to discuss this again, its rather boring .

Originally Posted by

PS Calling my argument disingenuous is rather insulting.

So is making unfair assertions about someone's intent.

You are hardly trying to calm things down by making this comment are you? I retracted my earlier statement and said I was wrong - what more do you want.

Regards

A disaffected Nokia fanboy

Last edited by chrisp7; 2010-01-22 at 12:27.

ossipena | # 150 | 2010-01-22, 11:47 | Report

Originally Posted by chrisp7 View Post

Im not sure why we are getting to a statistical issue, my point that I have made an over and over is that the software just isnt good enough at present imo - which opinion concurs with the majority (going by reviews, blogs, this forum etc).

good job, you just ruined your reputation. (unless you manage to find respectable sources to back your words up)