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wmarone is offline wmarone
2010-02-28 , 04:58
Posts: 1,746 | Thanked: 2,100 times | Joined on Sep 2009
#81
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
Thanks for proving my point
How'd I prove your point. I'll only buy DRM'd materials if the DRM has been broken. If it isn't broken, I do without.

Again, I never advocated the use of badly implemented DRM.
All DRM is inherently flawed.

it should reasonably restrict is your ability to make unauthorized copies of the product and sharing them to other potential customers.
Except that's what COPYRIGHT LAW is for. DRM, as it is, serves entirely to grant corporations control of materials beyond the point of purchase, and eventually, beyond the expiration of copyright (which is another disaster entirely.)
 

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jakiman is offline jakiman
2010-02-28 , 07:33
Posts: 1,427 | Thanked: 2,077 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Sydney
#82
IMO, it's only the people who pay for legit copies who suffer from DRM etc.
When I buy a PC game, first thing I look for is a crack sometimes.
So I don't need the DVD inside my drive or need to login etc. =P
 

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ysss is offline ysss
2010-02-28 , 07:48
Posts: 4,384 | Thanked: 5,524 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
#83
@jakiman: For many of current (imho flawed) DRM implementations, yes I agree with your assertion. Again, I'll have to point out that this is a problem with bad implementation of DRM.

@wmarone, et al:

We're getting circular in the discussion, so I'll just throw out what I think is the main question in this issue:

Do you have a problem with not being able to get free copies of the product, or the way the product enforces that?
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wmarone is offline wmarone
2010-02-28 , 08:34
Posts: 1,746 | Thanked: 2,100 times | Joined on Sep 2009
#84
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
Do you have a problem with not being able to get free copies of the product
No.

the way the product enforces that?
Yes.

I'm quite insulted that you think that opposing the use of DRM means I want things for free.
 
jer006 is offline jer006
2010-02-28 , 16:28
Posts: 311 | Thanked: 110 times | Joined on Nov 2007 @ Boston, MA
#85
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
@jakiman: For many of current (imho flawed) DRM implementations, yes I agree with your assertion. Again, I'll have to point out that this is a problem with bad implementation of DRM.

@wmarone, et al:

We're getting circular in the discussion, so I'll just throw out what I think is the main question in this issue:

Do you have a problem with not being able to get free copies of the product, or the way the product enforces that?
Ysss - so far you have yet to actually list one good implementation of DRM!!! Everyone listed so far is "flawed" somewhat!!!

While getting something for nothing is great but I do not have a problem with paying, its the way that its enforced. If I pay for something then (within the limits of copyright law) I should be able to do what I want with what I bought - there should be no limitations on the number of devices I install it onto nor should there be any restrictions on the devices that can play it and there should be no additional "crap" installed with the application/game/music (etc) I bought to control these restrictions!

I agree with copyright law 100% and if something comes with DRM I will not buy it - apart from DVD's where there is just no option...
Last edited by jer006; 2010-02-28 at 16:30.
 
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2010-03-02 , 14:40
Posts: 2,535 | Thanked: 6,681 times | Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK
#86
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
If it's a deb that is either opened in app manager or saved....

a) How does this compare to the previous situation (download via apt-get) in terms of illegally spreading the file? Not much better for publishers I suppose, is it?
Not really; however it's probably easier to find the deb being shared (and stop that as blatant copyright abuse) rather than the command to install it (you can't copyright apt-get install foo).

b) Does this mean the applications aren't in a repository any more and therefore will not get updated if a bug is fixed?
Indeed, it does look like that. However, I've got a package called MorphoQuickPanorama installed and a package morphoquickpanorama in the Ovi catalogue.

It's interesting that with all the indepth technical approaches we hypothesised they'd come up with, they went for the "well, we'll download a deb and install it directly" solution.

This was fairly clear when they announced in the PR1.1.1 changelog that installing from files was back to enable Ovi; however on the super-large negative (or plus, depending on your POV) side, it means that random debs distributed through random websites can now be installed directly through Application Manager.

Woot! *cough*

I can imagine that the current disabling is pending a hack to the browser to prevent it from asking whether or not you want to save & open, and just make it open.

C'mon Nokia, apply some technical design skill here! Hell, I'm even getting to the point whereby if they outlined what approach they were going to take, I'd happily cast my eye over it - the current "let's try this; oh shoot, it's broken" strategy is just so embarrassing!

Of course, without Harmattan's security framework, there's no good solution to this; but at least we can try and make it harder. My preferred approach is still:
  • apt source line of the form: ovi://downloads.nokia.com/ovi/fremantle/2aae6c35c94fcfb415dbe95f408b9ce91ee846ed.... (e.g. SHA1 of Ovi Store unique ID)
  • "ovi" URL schemes get the final portion XORed with their IMEI to give a repository URL of the form http://downloads.nokia.com/ovi/fremantle/d0c1d3fcc51f89b8ffd048935702da762fcd4805.
  • Ovi username & password is configured through a control panel applet and is sent in the HTTP headers during apt.
  • The downloads.nokia.com server recognises the username/password, repository URL and validates it against the user's stored IMEI against their account.
  • If validation is successful, the Packages for this "repository" is the subset of packages which the user is entitled to download.

This has the advantages of:
  1. Preventing trivial sharing of debs (and apt sources)
  2. Allowing upgrades through Application Manager
  3. Allowing re-installation through Application Manager (on restoring a backup).
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attila77 is offline attila77
2010-03-02 , 16:09
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#87
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
This has the advantages of:
  1. Preventing trivial sharing of debs (and apt sources)
This would depend on everybody's personal definition of trivial - it's still way too easy to make a public repo/mirror. The only remotely useable option is a steam-like call-home validation (yuck), everything else is running in circles as it can be more-or-less trivially circumvented (IMEI notwithstanding).
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2010-03-02 , 16:33
Posts: 2,535 | Thanked: 6,681 times | Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK
#88
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
This would depend on everybody's personal definition of trivial - it's still way too easy to make a public repo/mirror. The only remotely useable option is a steam-like call-home validation (yuck), everything else is running in circles as it can be more-or-less trivially circumvented (IMEI notwithstanding).
True. But the call-home stuff would have to be a) sufficiently anonymised to not allow usage tracking and b) be aware that it could go for days or weeks without a network connection.

You've still got initial device identification as an issue, but you could perhaps assume - validly - that the device has a network connection during initial install. But then you're back to coordinating the install using IMEI as a key.

Any ongoing call home ("am I still installed on a device I should be installed on?") has to deal with just-as-simple interception and prolonged periods of network inaccessibility.

As I said, without Harmattan's security framework this is tilting at windmills and trying to avoid make it too easy for illicit folk on these (and other) fora to act illicitly.
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Last edited by Jaffa; 2010-03-02 at 16:33. Reason: Typo.
 
wierdo is offline wierdo
2010-03-02 , 19:03
Posts: 118 | Thanked: 26 times | Joined on Jun 2008
#89
Originally Posted by jer006 View Post
They should all be lumped into the same sticky hairball though, if I buy a game I am only paying for and installing that game. All implementations such as Securrom, Sony's rootkit, starforce etc, they are all installed on the machine without the owners knowledge, they all run on the local machine hiding themselves in the process and they are all using local resources and in most cases are a nightmare to remove! Also all of them also seem to have caused issues on users machines...
SecuRom is a piece of junk and made my CD-ROM not work in Windows, but every software title I've seen with it advertises its presence on the box and in the manual, so it's only "installed without the user's knowledge" if the user is an unobservant *****.

Sony's rootkit was more insidious precisely because it's presence was not made known.
 
jer006 is offline jer006
2010-03-03 , 02:57
Posts: 311 | Thanked: 110 times | Joined on Nov 2007 @ Boston, MA
#90
Well that unobservant ***** is likely drawn in by the flashy graphics on the games box and the machine requirements not some obscure reference to something called "SecureRom"... Guaranteed your average gamer is not even aware of it, what it is or even what it is used for! Initially when these products came out there was even less information, at least now there are blogs and newsgroup articles on the subject matter...

I dont understand why they dont just tie the software to the IMEI and forget the DRM all together... Thats how a bunch of stuff I bought from Handango for Symbian was delivered to me back when I had a 5800! It just stinks that its taking so long to get at products like sygic maps etc...

I understand the need to stop piracy but it really is taking too long at this point!!!
 
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