WooHoo just tried to login and it worked! I originally tried for at least an hour - that "sync every 10 minutes" thing ain't quite there...

Umm, much as I would like to comment on this and that, I'm subscribed to way too many mailing lists already over the years, I'm very hesitant to subscribe to yet another one just for being able to post a single comment or two.

As for my non-mailed comment on how to improve the Midgard wiki (see, I did actually read the thread even though I'm not posting there.. ), it's short and harsh: Replace the Midgard wiki with Mediawiki (the one used by wikipedia and countless others).

I miss the old application wiki... When I search for becomeroot it finds nothing. When I search for root, it finds becomeroot. It would be nice to have at least a list of all downloads, rather than having to hunt. Does it sound like I am whining?

I thought about this a bit before this present post. First, I appreciate a Nokia guy coming on here and clarifying things for us. However - it would be nice if the Nokia folks identiifed themselves when they post - and it would be nice to fix the issues and not have to explain them. Also, I never heard of a website that had a bug tracker one needed to log issues with the site in and not have a maintainer who would take comments via email or form. As a semi-retired developer and techno-geek myself I can understand the personal motivation here - but isn't this supposed to be a consumer device with consumer-grade support and service? Nokia, this product line is going teats up if you don't change the way it is supported! Us techo-geeks should be a very small part of your market - not the focus! Hate to say it, but this project needs some managers put on it - the engineering crew can only take it so far and it seems the geeks are in charge here <grin>.

Hi,

I work at Nokia and I'm responsible of maemo.org. I'm not engineer and my role contains the word "manager".

It is a website targeted to developers and power users only. Pure end users might find it useless, this is why we try to redirect them elsewhere i.e. here.

> I never heard of a website that had a bug tracker one needed to log issues with the site
debian.org and gnome.org are two examples of websites that ask you to file bugs about the website. Filing bugs is the best way to handle issues and is a practice common to open source developers and power users (the target users of maemo.org).

> isn't this supposed to be a consumer device
The tablets yes, not the maemo platform. maemo.org is not a consumer website. maemo will have a grade support for developers willing it and it will be provided via http://forum.nokia.com . We want to keep maemo.org within the usual open source development practices.

About the previous complaints:

- Nokia and the community have shared responsibilities over the wiki content and downloads.maemo.org. Each one takes care of their docs/apps. I expect to have the Nokia side sorted out by the end of August.

- The Midgard wiki has been improved last week in order to ease its use and match the Moin functionality. Try it out and report specific issues so we can work on them. "Difficult" alone is too vague for us to be effective. There are more enhancements on the way.

- downloads.maemo.org is being improved these days in order to promote and show off the best applications while discriminating the rest. Developers need to do their homework (i.e. providing install files that work) and you can help as well by rating and commenting apps.

- Although the website had a period of instability, we fixed the server and currently the performance is all in all good. Please report any issues with details (when, which pages). Database errors have been fixed as well but if you find one please provide the URL and we will fix it.

Existing bugs about issues mentioned here:

Secure certificate not properly setup, says untrusted site
http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1403

Users confused because new username doesn't work
http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1612

New bug reports filed with feedback from this thread:

Explicit feedback channels
http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1660

List of all downloads
http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1661

The Midgard/Wiki Search is still not functioning correctly, and the Search box in the top right of the page is useless - the Search actually takes you to a hidden" Search page where you by default search the maemo.ord documentation (even if you intended to search for something else) and the main site navigation toolbar now has a "Search" item tacked on the end which is not present on any other page. All very strange, not to mention confusing. A better option would be to make the Search in the top right corner a simple hyperlink to the real Search page.

Now that we have accessed the hidden Search page, it's possible to filter search queries against various areas of the site - eg., just the Maemo Wiki. So I search for the term "BluetoothDUN" against "maemo wiki" - which should find this BluetoothDUN Wiki page - yet it brings up three links but not the page I'm searching for. It turns out that BluetoothDUN is actually in the "maemo.org documentation" section, even though it's partial URL clearly states it's a maemowiki document and it certainly used to be a Wiki document in the old site.

I rarely search maemo.org for any useful documentation these days, it's massively less searchable than the old site. The Search functionality needs something of an overhaul and better implementation within the navigation - the top right search is pointless and confusing, the hidden search offers more functionality but it's existence is not obvious etc. and some documents appear to have been placed in the wrong section.

I can put this in Bugzilla if you like.

My (mis?)understanding was that maemo.org is for end users to download third party apps and garage.maemo.org is for developers - I'm pretty sure that "tableteer" has a link to maemo.org for end users? If not, where should end users be looking for games and such? Anyways it will be interesting to see what the cleanup of maemo.org you have planned by August looks like. As far as sending end users over here for help - may the gods have mercy on them !

I've never liked Linux much because apps and ports never seem to get "polished", debugged and documented enough to be "end user quality". Even commercially developed code like Opera make you hack into hidden files just to set neccessary things like the minimum font size ! I'd personally NEVER bet my project on the Linux developer community turning out Windows or Mac quality apps. The only Linux distro I ever liked was the Lindows (now Linspire) one where they have set up a wonderful app install website where all apps have been ported and are supported by their own engineers. I actually gave them money for their product although I never ended using it - and I'm not one for paying for software . I really hoped they could "end-userize" Linux to the point where it would be a serious competitor to Windows, Windows CE, Mac OS, and Palm OS. I'd love to dump Windows but there is just too much good software out there (commercial and freeware) written for it. Anyways thank you Nokia folks for doing what you can for this product - we all feel your pain!

The search related bugs are submitted and the fixes should come very soon:

No maemo wiki specific search
http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1381

Search database needs total refresh
http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1302

The application catalog is still in maemo.org because is offering not only stable/beta versions but also all the rest of applications, and from a Nokia point of view this is something to be kept out of mainstream end users.

The jump from Tableteer to maemo.org to find more apps is the current solution but not the final one. Tableteer wants to increase its offer of stable, reliable and exciting third party applications. We are working on a process for applications to jump from maemo to Tableteer based on quality awareness, self tests and some manual testing done by us at Nokia as well, plus some editorial criteria.

Garage is a place to look for projects/people but nobody stops you from downloading the software there. downloads.maemo.org and the extras repository are the proposed places to get the applications.

About where to send end users, ideas are welcome at

Tableteer promo in homepage is confusing
http://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1298

Thanks for the info about your plans to make this all more end-user friendly. Sounds like you have a good plan there. I'll put away my tooth and fingernail extractors now that we got you guys to open up a bit to us <grin>.