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sjgadsby |
2007-10-18
, 13:50
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Posts: 5,335 |
Thanked: 8,187 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Pennsylvania, USA
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#11
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Originally Posted by zerojay
Thank you. That was my impression, but I don't follow Gnome closely.
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2007-10-18
, 14:37
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#12
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In any case: sexually assault them. I've been through the compatibility break with the 770, and it was a royal pain; some of the greatest apps on the 770 still haven't made it unscathed to the N800, and some never made it. Bog only knows how many promising developers turned away, thinking (and justly so) that this mess was just too much trouble for what it's worth.
Like I wrote, my next device will be an Eee, and Nokia will have to do some mighty magycks with the N900 if I will even consider buying it. And let me add that the rumours that it will be a general public (as in: "dumbo box") device, are not really getting my hopes up much...
Like I wrote, my next device will be an Eee, and Nokia will have to do some mighty magycks with the N900 if I will even consider buying it. And let me add that the rumours that it will be a general public (as in: "dumbo box") device, are not really getting my hopes up much...
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2007-10-18
, 14:45
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#13
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I'm not sure what you're wanting here, Karel.
The bad transition from 770 to N800 has been adressed: it's not gonna happen with the N800 to N810.
As some have pointed out, and I thought you understood, Linux is a constantly evolving OS and there will occasionally be breaks as newer libraries are developed and engaged. Yes, this can be a pain for developers and users alike, but it avoids (as someone already pointed out) the sort of "DLL Hell" we Windows users have dealt with for decades due to Microsoft's own OS idiosyncracies.
Of course I will gripe too if AisleRiot Solitaire isn't available at launch...
The bad transition from 770 to N800 has been adressed: it's not gonna happen with the N800 to N810.
As some have pointed out, and I thought you understood, Linux is a constantly evolving OS and there will occasionally be breaks as newer libraries are developed and engaged. Yes, this can be a pain for developers and users alike, but it avoids (as someone already pointed out) the sort of "DLL Hell" we Windows users have dealt with for decades due to Microsoft's own OS idiosyncracies.
Of course I will gripe too if AisleRiot Solitaire isn't available at launch...
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2007-10-18
, 15:01
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Posts: 3,841 |
Thanked: 1,079 times |
Joined on Nov 2006
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#14
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Actually, it's not really that much of an evolving Linux problem, the OS2005/2006/2007 changes were more of an evolving first-try with a new device:
OS2005-OS2006: Change from an older ARM binary format to a newer one, presumably to accomodate the newer ARM cpus/instruction sets (or the switch could all be a political decision for all I know).
OS2006-OS2007: Hardware of N800 slightly different from 770, and this hardware layer not sufficiently abstracted away from the software (in addition to a newer CPU with instructions not even available on the old CPU. A bit like going from Pentium-II to P4, an application optimized for the latter won't run on the former. As performance is an issue with mobile devices it's more common to optimize as much as possible, more often than for desktop computers where building for the lowest common denominator is more affordable.)
Then there's the new, evolving Hildon UI and its integration (or missing integration) into mainstream gtk+.
The good news is of course that everything is stabilizing more and more now, I seriously doubt we'll see many big changes after OS2008.
(as for Linux itself, even though it evolves it doesn't actually make everything obsolete as it moves, at least not as a general rule: I still have applications from the early years (close to 15 years) that still work fine on my new multi-CPU modern-UI Xeon desktop system. Mobile devices can be a bit more problematic though, for the reasons stated above.)
OS2005-OS2006: Change from an older ARM binary format to a newer one, presumably to accomodate the newer ARM cpus/instruction sets (or the switch could all be a political decision for all I know).
OS2006-OS2007: Hardware of N800 slightly different from 770, and this hardware layer not sufficiently abstracted away from the software (in addition to a newer CPU with instructions not even available on the old CPU. A bit like going from Pentium-II to P4, an application optimized for the latter won't run on the former. As performance is an issue with mobile devices it's more common to optimize as much as possible, more often than for desktop computers where building for the lowest common denominator is more affordable.)
Then there's the new, evolving Hildon UI and its integration (or missing integration) into mainstream gtk+.
The good news is of course that everything is stabilizing more and more now, I seriously doubt we'll see many big changes after OS2008.
(as for Linux itself, even though it evolves it doesn't actually make everything obsolete as it moves, at least not as a general rule: I still have applications from the early years (close to 15 years) that still work fine on my new multi-CPU modern-UI Xeon desktop system. Mobile devices can be a bit more problematic though, for the reasons stated above.)
__________________
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
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2007-10-18
, 15:08
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Posts: 5,335 |
Thanked: 8,187 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Pennsylvania, USA
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#15
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Originally Posted by TA-t3
Without recompilation? Were the a.out-to-ELF and libc5-to-libc6 transitions more than 15 years ago?
(as for Linux itself, even though it evolves it doesn't actually make everything obsolete as it moves, at least not as a general rule: I still have applications from the early years (close to 15 years) that still work fine on my new multi-CPU modern-UI Xeon desktop system. Mobile devices can be a bit more problematic though, for the reasons stated above.)
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2007-10-18
, 15:13
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#16
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Thanks for the clarification TA-t3. Obviously I should have included a mobile-specific context.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2007-10-18
, 15:34
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Posts: 3,096 |
Thanked: 1,525 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Michigan, USA
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#17
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Originally Posted by Karel Jansens
In any case: sexually assault them. I've been through the compatibility break with the 770, and it was a royal pain; some of the greatest apps on the 770 still haven't made it unscathed to the N800, and some never made it. Bog only knows how many promising developers turned away, thinking (and justly so) that this mess was just too much trouble for what it's worth.
Like I wrote, my next device will be an Eee, and Nokia will have to do some mighty magycks with the N900 if I will even consider buying it. And let me add that the rumours that it will be a general public (as in: "dumbo box") device, are not really getting my hopes up much...
Karl I think you have summed it up nicely, I do not anticipate buying a n810, although I was chomping at the bit until I saw the spec's.
Good move on the staying back, I wish I had done it, but its stable now and I have no interest in changing anything. Its really time to step up my search for a replacement hardware platform.
Anyone listening, nows the time?
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2007-10-18
, 15:53
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Posts: 3,220 |
Thanked: 326 times |
Joined on Oct 2005
@ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
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#18
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Originally Posted by Texrat
As I'm going into leech mode as far as the N800 is concerned, I won't be contributing to this forum much anymore. I decided to see how things pan out with ITOS2008; if everything I use (and the things I want) get ported to 2008 hassle-free, I might change my mind. Otherwise (and that is what I fear will happen), it'll be a definite goodbye.
I'm not sure what you're wanting here, Karel.
The bad transition from 770 to N800 has been adressed: it's not gonna happen with the N800 to N810.
As some have pointed out, and I thought you understood, Linux is a constantly evolving OS and there will occasionally be breaks as newer libraries are developed and engaged. Yes, this can be a pain for developers and users alike, but it avoids (as someone already pointed out) the sort of "DLL Hell" we Windows users have dealt with for decades due to Microsoft's own OS idiosyncracies.
Of course I will gripe too if AisleRiot Solitaire isn't available at launch...
I'm sure software will get ported to or developed for the platform, but the sad change to form over function (just look at the myriad of media players, each trying to out-skin the other) doesn't bode well. I don't like the direction the platform seems to be taking -- into a general public entertainment-only device -- so I'm hedging my bets and I'm getting an Eee which, while not perfect and not as pocketable as the N800, at least is a general-purpose Linux device that will allow me to use it as I -- and not the manufacturer or developers for a fringe platform -- see fit.
Bye for now...
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2007-10-18
, 16:06
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Posts: 3,841 |
Thanked: 1,079 times |
Joined on Nov 2006
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#19
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Originally Posted by sjgadsby
a.out still works (there's an a.out execution module in the kernel, distros are typically set up to automatically load it if needed). However, for dynamically linked old applications you may find that you don't have the runtime library available (or certainly won't, if you just installed your new fresh system). So, to run them you must have kept your old runtime libs. Some of the oldest applications only still run if they were statically linked.
Without recompilation? Were the a.out-to-ELF and libc5-to-libc6 transitions more than 15 years ago?
I don't remember exactly when the a.out->elf transition happened, but it definitely had happened before early 1996 - I just ran some old libc5 elf applications from February 1996.
I would have re-tested some of my 1992 applications (been some months since I did), but that old disk I kept connected (as old as the applications) broke down very recently.. not that much of a surprise really!
__________________
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
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2007-10-18
, 20:45
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Posts: 12 |
Thanked: 0 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ Seattle,WA
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#20
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Originally Posted by recyclebin
Thought I'd post more numbers. With the standard Nokia 24MHz SD clock limit built back into my kernel, both cards mentioned above now sit at 8MB/sec on the 'dd' read test.
I get right at 12MB/sec on both the internal slot (8GB Class 6 Transcend) and external slot (2GB Kingston 120X "ultimate" SD).
So a 100% increase in the SD clock rate (24->48MHz) only results in a 50% increase in actual transfer rates. The CPU usage is pegged at 100% during the test (both at 24 and 48MHz), so I assume this less-than-theoretical speed increase is largely due to that. I tried both Busybox 'dd' and the standard GNU coreutils version, and they produce basically the same result. With the upcoming Chinook (2008) firmware boosting the N800 clock to 400MHz, it will be interesting to see if we get a corresponding increase in transfer rates, at least in this artificial test.
I'm going to try the stressful un-tar procedure again (source .tar.bz2 file on the same card as the loop-mounted ext2 file being written to) with the slower clock and see what happens.