anthonie | # 11 | 2010-10-10, 17:37 | Report

That's why I stated that no other device is so unsuitable for the masses and non-tech-savy people in general. Anyone with a decent experience in computing knows no device or system is perfect. I work on a daily basis with Linux, Windows and OS X, and I don't think any of these systems has ever been able to deliver everything I want from it out of the box.

But let me state clearly that I am not trying to defend Nokia here: There is simply no defence for a lot of the cock-ups they made with the launch of this device. It's just that I am too cynical to believe claims made by any manufacturer. I know from "the other devices" they have their own share of problems as well. The way I took the initial comment is: The problem is simple, why haven't you solved it. Hence my reply: Fix it yourself as I don't think Nokia will care enough to do it for you. If you're not up to that, than live with your problem or sell the device.

No. It was not for free. And me being far from rich have spent quite a few hours contemplating whether or not to get this device. Once finished, I knew what I could expect; A first made device considered more to be an experiment (with tech-savy people to improve code as it's target) than a market ready device for the masses that "just want things working".

I know many people here expected the n900 to be such a mass-ready device, for whatever reason, and I believe they are wrong. This device is not human-ready but it can be made just that.

pwm | # 12 | 2010-10-10, 19:26 | Report

But are you claiming that Microsoft or Apple left it up to the users to figure out how to solve problems with their operating systems or their applications? Because if that isn't your claim, then your analogy breaks down badly. Apple and Microsoft didn't charge for a product and then dropped the support without having managed a standard release complete with requierd service-pack fixes. The Nokia updates to Maemo isn't service-pack fixes to a release-ready product. They are just releases to get the N900 software a bit closer to version 1.0. I would be very surprised if next Maemo release wouldn't still leave the N900 with beta-state software.

I bought the N900 because it allows me to write own "real" applications - I'm not too fond of Java applications. But I didn't buy it wanting to make money from applications, but to use the phone for myself.

Paying for my own phone, I did expect to have to put down own time with adding own applications. Not having to waste own time just to overcome failures with the Nokia-supplied software. Are users expecting too much if they think a N900 can match the N95 as base platform but with the addition that we can really start to change the world of mobile computing by inventing new way to work outside the office?

To get Nokia to improve, it's important that all N900 users unifies in our claims. When some peoples just can't take criticism about their beloved N900 and instead blame buyers for not solving themselves problems with the N900, we get nowhere.

I don't know how many threads I have seen where people make fun of iPhone fan-boys. How come? The only reason for these threads is that a N900 fan-boy created the threads. But does it really help us to have N900 fan boys laughing at iPhone fan boys? Does that give happier N900 users?

Haven't you noticed that the phone is available in all the "normal" phone stores? Nothing claiming: This is a proof-of-concept experiment. Users beware. When looking at it in the stores or web shops, there are feature lists telling what it can. There are no warning lists telling what it can't. How many users who buy the N900 realizes that the N95-supplied headphone can't control the multimedia player anymore? How many users realizes that if you register a bluetooth headset, you'll get the battery warning beeps in the headset and not in the phone - despite many people not keeping the headset in the ear(s) all the time?

Anyone who have seen Nokia claim that the N900 is seriously dangerous and/or unsuitable to use with hands-free solutions in a vehicle? How many of the N900 buyers realies that with the N900 you will not let a voice tell who is calling (unless we spent own time implementing it), and will not let the user talk to the phone to order it to dial someone?

Don't spend time blaiming the users for not reading the fine print and registering with a development site to learn the status of the phone and phone software. Don't blame the users for wanting to dial Nokia support and complain about software problems instead of registering and report bugs - would you want to register with a german web site and register bug reports if your new BMW navigation system sends you to Frankfurt instead of Nice? I think you would be very frustrated if it wasn't enough to call the dealer and then got told to just drive in to get a cup of coffe while your car got a firmware update.

Everytime someone writes: You shouldn't have bought a N900 if you aren't a experienced Linux user or a experienced Linux developer, I want to scream. How ridiculous to blame the user for not investing days or weeks on developer-oriented forums. The marketing material doesn't require you to be a developer. Why should a buyer then suspect that Nokia requires you to be a developer or at Linux system administrator to get the phone to at least function as a "normal" phone? Only if Nokia sends out sales material indicating the need for such Linux knowledge can Nokia - or members on this forum - expect such knowledge from the buyers.

Yes, many other manufacturers have their problems. But that is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is that Nokia sells this phone as a smart phone++. But a smart phone++ would be a smart phone with some extra. And a smart phone would be a phone with some extra. What Nokia doesn't tell is that the N900 misses a lot of things "normal" phones has. Nokia tells about extra features but not about broken or removed features. And if you do register, Nokia tells you "WONT FIX" for most of the broken things. OK if you bought the phone on speculation, hoping to make money from application sales. Not OK if you bought the phone for own use. WONT FIX is basically just a different way of saying: "we don't care about our N900 customers - get back when we release the N9 and we'll decide then if we'll keep your money one more time without supplying the full product."

Nokia gives us a phone that guestimates the battery capacity in percent and in mAh. But they start to warn about low battery when you may have minutes left to talk instead of warning early enough that you can charge your phone before you go out to lunch.

Nokia tells us about the conversation feature, unifying SMS, IM etc. But doesn't tell us that we can't get individual ring signals depending on contact - that is until someone on this forum added such functinality.

Nokia gives us a phone that can rotate the phone interface - but animates the rotation so nicely that we often press "reject" instead of "accept" because the phone decides to rotate the interface just when we try to accept a call.

Nokia gave us a mail program that can't handle some mails at all. Not sure if it is unsupported characters or what it is, but the mail flashes up (showing as empty) for a second before I get returned to the mail list. My N95 didn't fail like that, but the N900 is marketed to be more advanced...

Nokia gives us a backup feature from their PC program - but with too large files (such as recorded movies), their backups fails and claims we have to disconnect/reconnect the USB cable. Nothing wrong with the cable interface - just the software that isn't properly handling large files.

The list of pure stupidities from Nokia can be made extremely long.

Whatever reason we did have for buying the N900. If we still think the N900 is the best phone there is, or are very frustrated with it. We must still stand unified against Nokia. We must claim that Nokia did sell an unfinished product to end users, and that Nokia expects end users to solve the problems. Something we many times can't since that would require us to reverse-engineer closed-source applications. Only by being unified can we get Nokia to realize that it isn't just some individuals who are struggling or having the wrong expectations. Only by being unified can we maybe get Nokia to care about some of the bugs they now have marked WONT FIX. Only by being unified can we maybe avoid the same problem with the N9 or some other Nokia phone. Only by being unified can we get Nokia to start to use their pocket calculators and estimating goodwill loss from abandoned customers. Only by being unified can we get Nokia to consider the damage from getting too many developers irritated, since the availability of good software really is important for sales of new phones.

So what are we? Are we Nokia fan-boys making fun of users who get into troubles? Or are we helpful people who do try to help users when they get stuck, but at the same time makes sure that Nokia gets the message that the blame for the mess is to 99% Nokia?

You are basically saying that it is an end-user problem, and not a problem caused by Nokia. That really is the implication of your statement. And indirectly, that means you are on Nokias side, and not on the N900 owners side.

HellFlyer | # 13 | 2010-10-10, 19:47 | Report

I'm about to let my N900 go because of [insert your favourite bug/issue here]

ivnvir | # 14 | 2010-10-10, 20:10 | Report

let's be honest people: a device for nerds, with a super linux OS developed by the best nerds around is making thumbs for pictures that already has thumbs, making EVERYTHING lags, and its normal, since its not for masses... so it's for stupids?

c'mon...

and obviously I wont fix, I have better things to do.. it's for sure a simple thing for nokia to fix.. you have the thumbs database done, so doesn't redo it if no files were added or modified.. for god's sake, even windows is not that stupid...

but ok, that's why our device is amateur, there are many flaws, but no one has the guts to admit, it's like hurting a ned to complain about teh supar linuxers device omg!!!!11

it's like iPhone: it has many things that sucks, but who'll complain? it's so cute!
..
nerds tend to hate this apple feeling and do the same..

DrWilken | # 15 | 2010-10-10, 20:15 | Report

I don't have the problem You describe (but I don't have a lot of media - only pictures).

I used tracker-cfg to exclude a few directories under MyDocs, I've enabled "LowMemoryMode" and set throttle to 10. I think that's it (everything else is default settings).

amebes | # 16 | 2010-10-10, 20:15 | Report

Oh God I've just logged on here for the first time in a while and seen that there are still the same complaints... Some things never change. Do you guys have a PR1.3 yet?

I only use my N900 as a media player now... Got to love that FM transmitter...

anthonie | # 17 | 2010-10-10, 20:35 | Report

The reference to Microsoft and Apple was made to state that even mass-ready OS's and devices are not what they are sold like.

Well, perhaps it's just me, but when I intend to spend a third of a months' income to some device, I will definilately do a lot of research first. When I see every review mentioning how cool it is to basically have a linux box in your pocket, I know this is a device I probably want myself and would surely NOT advice anyone else to buy, unless I know that other person is not afraid to get his or her hands dirty. Command line root access, in bold letters to be found all over the net. Does that not mean anything to potential buyers? And if not, should that not be a warning? Oh no, people prefer to look at companies the same they do with politicians: They believe their words and promises, give them a vote of confidence by either voting or buying their products, and then they start complaining that it hurts to be taken from the back without any form of lubrication.

I knew up front about the N97 failure. Yet I did decide to buy the n900 for the obvious reasons. But one thing I did not expect is for everything to work out of the box, despite what Nokia's marketing department may have promised or not. If you did, the word naive is the least offensive one that should be reserved for you.

I believe the phrase was "Mobile computer".

And thus the Maemo forum is the place to come and complain about behavior of the company Nokia as a whole? In the same breath stating it's a simple problem to fix...

Like I said before... Look around and solutions will magically appear...

Nokia Suite is a joke. And a bad one at that. Something you should be able to tell by the time you find out that it only runs on... Windows
However. if you know your way around the command line, there are plenty of options.

True and undeniable fact, already stated by me in my post before.

It is. But not for the reasons you mentioned. And it does not mean either, that Nokia is NOT to blame. However, you seem to expect a worlleading company to sell it's devices with big "not-ready for ya fokes jus yet" labels on them...

Spotfist | # 18 | 2010-10-10, 20:43 | Report

In a way I believe both arguments are correct, it can easily be said that the phone is aim'd at a "nerdified" user group but I personally think that this only comes down to unlocking the phones full potential... Only a "nerd" would install VNC onto their phone so as to dial into their home server or use queenbeecon to run loads of scripts.

You have to agree though that many of the phones faults are so serious that there is just no way to fix them yourself, and then the ones that can be fixed are as simple as the op says it makes you wonder why we haven't seen a fix yet... My emails don't auto-update so a wrote a script myself in alarmed, it was easy once I knew how but why hasn't nokia fixed this for people who would never do it themselves? I think the phone is great, I use the FM transmitter all the time, unlocked that to a lower frequency my car radio uses making it even better, I have loads of script's in alarmed doing all the things I would usually have to do myself, I have sooo many games at my finger tips what with the emulators, scumm etc. It just REALLY annoys me that the phone could have been sooo much more!

As pmw says the phones OS just isn't good enough and with just a little bit of effort could be fixed, after how badly the n97 was received I personally think the N900 would have seen excellent sales, and Nokia would have made themselves allot of money, when I first got my N900 I showed my bro and he was shocked to see me playing quake3 on my phone, when I gave it to him to use he quickly realised the phone wasn't for him... Such a shame

James_Littler | # 19 | 2010-10-10, 21:26 | Report

I would like to see ONE piece of advertising where NOKIA states this isn't a product for consumers.

Just ONE?!

No?

pwm | # 20 | 2010-10-10, 21:45 | Report

I don't expect a new and high-end product to be released and working 100% perfect from day one. I can't release such software myself. But I expect a manufacturer to stand behind their product until the problems have been solved.

I have expensive DVD or Bluray players from very well-known companies that have required a couple of firmware updates until they got really great.

I have multimedia players that never got that final firmware update, in which case I have blacklisted the manufacturer and tell everyone around me to stay away from that brand.

The issue here is that Nokia as too few developers. So they have decided to move the resources to the N9, while ignoring the current N900 customer stock. That is an extremely stupid corporate decision.

I'm not planning to trade away my N900 because I have the skills to fool around inside it. But how likely am I to recommend a N900? How likely am I to buy a N9? How likely am I to productify some programs I develop for myself to broaden the availability of software for Nokia phones? Well, the amount of time Nokia spends on fixing their own mistakes greatly affects my decisions. And they most probably affects similar decisions by a lot of other N900 users. And we really need to make sure that every single day that the Nokia developers gets to work they know we exists and aren't happy with the current state. And we want those Nokia developers to send that message up in the hierarchy. And we want that same message fed to the Nokia help desks. We really want Nokia to start to consider it economically important to not just release a minimalistic 1.3 update but to show that Nokia either replaces bad products with working, or replaces bad software with good. But that the customer does get what Nokia does claim to sell. Nokia is #1. But that is a lonely place. And the application stores for iPhones and Androids are so well-filled.

It takes dedicated developers who believes in, and trusts, Nokia to get large amounts of commercial-grade applications for Maemo or Meego.

And it is similarly important that "normal" users who jumped the N900 band-wagon believes in Nokia. They see a lot of service packs to fix problems in Windows. They see bug-fixes every update tuesday.

With the N900, they do not see that quick lite update that gets hildon-home to stop consuming 5% CPU just because we have multi-level menues (which we just must have if we do use the phone as Nokia wants us - i.e. by adding more programs than just basic phone+calendar+sms).

We do not see any small updates that makes the kinetic scroll behave like it does in all other phones. We have to manually upgrade software while wondering how that upgrade will interfere with the upcomming PR13 update.

Whenever you do a comparison with Microsoft or Apple, people will not see the similarity but will instead think about the service updates that Nokia does not send out. All the trivial bugs that remains for month after month. All the trivial bugs what people thought should have been fixed in PR1.2 but that wasn't. Or maybe even thought would have been fixed in PR1.1.

Microsoft regularly sends out huge numbers of bugs. But they have a large number of people working with corrections too.

Nokia on the other hand has released a phone with beta software and have made the corporate decision to leave it with beta software. Except of course that we may possibly get non-beta software sometime if we throw away the original software and changes to Meego. But a change that Nokia officially claims to be an unofficial update - i.e. not for "normal" users. But once more - if I visit the normal phone store or a normal web shop, the phone is sold among the "normal" phones so many of the customers are expected to be "normal" customers - the kind of users who the Meego update is officially not intended for.

So in the end, we have corporate politics where the people who make the decisions about the software don't seem to synchronize with the people who markets the product. The end result is lost souls ending up here, and many of them asking "noob" questions they shouldn't have had to ask.

The cost for Nokia to dedicate one full-time developer just to incorporate and distribute minor fixes and to package the best improvements from this site into official updates would be very minor - or actually would be very much negative (as in a very big win) if considering goodwill.

Why have 500 users play with Swapolube? Why not have all N900 users getting optimized swap parameters from normal update? What cost would it be to add a simple GUI to add ignore directories for the tracker? Yes, people can solve it themselves, but once more - the cost of 500 people one-by-one reading up on the problem and fixing their problems, or every single N900 user getting a GUI with no need to have searched and read a lot of text here or themselves scanned through the directory structures on the phone?

If a single little developer at Nokia could manage a single little tiny bug/day and make it available in regular updates, it would represent a huge time/cost saving for the end users. The owners. The ones who have payed the phone and indirectly are paying the salaries of the Nokia staff.

Microsoft does have such developers. They do send out regular updates that saves time for a large number of users. Yes, they regularly goofs too, simplifying things too much, making advanced users have to spend time to figure out how to deactivate an unwanted automagic feature. But at least there is progress. Apple also have people constantly working on fixing broken things. And they both continue to fix broken things while busy with the next generation OS. And after that next generation OS has been released.

Nokia didn't sell the N900 with "warning. this is an experimental device. We may decide to ignore it and leave it in whatever state we find appropriate even if that means it in some situations will not manage basic functionality listed in our marketing material."

Nokia wants us to register or vote for bugs as if we all are developers. But are every N900 user also making sure that our problems (the ones we know are caused by Nokia bugs and not incompatibilities with 3rdparty applications or own changes) are reported to the Nokia support desks? If we don't then the help desk statistics will not show that there is problems. If we are too good at solving our problems, the N900 statistics will just show it as a very, very well-working phone and an example of a good software release policy.

In the short term, it's good for us that the members of this site finds solutions to N900 problems. But in the long term, we really have to make all of the Nokia organization realize that it's important with centralized support and that products shouldn't be abandoned until they have received mature software.