Crashdamage | # 91 | 2010-12-26, 15:50 | Report

The problem is they're losing market share and recognition and desirability as a brand in the upper end of the market. Today's high-end device is tomorrow's mid-range mass-market device so eventually this effect will filter down. And I disagree Symbian can compete against Android or iOS, particularly long-term. Sure, Symbian devices still sell well now but they're not really competitive against Android or iOS in features or desirability. Nokia knows it - that's why Maemo/MeeGo/Qt exist. And (partially) why WP7 is a possibilty for Nokia.

The potential benefits of MeeGo dictate Nokia should throw much more - almost everything they've got - at MeeGo. Not less.

Every time M$ introduces a new OS the hardware requirements to run it go up and people complain. Pretty soon hardware prices come down and everyone stops complaining. WP7 is just more of that familiar process.

You're sorely underestimating how much money and effort M$ is willing to put into making sure WP7 succeeds. They'll do whatever it takes and the resources to back it up. And that Windows is also used by over 90% of people world wide, giving M$ a huge headstart in name recognition and familiarity with M$ products.

Only if Nokia is willing to stick to the solid plan they've laid out through tough times. They must be as resolute about MeeGo/Qt as M$ will be about WP7.

That may be the biggest sticking point in a M$/Nokia deal. Who provides services? Both? How do you work that out?

Maintaining Symbian is not a problem for Nokia. They know it so well they could do it in their sleep. Turning over control of the OS that's running 99% of their phones to a competitor who knows little or nothing about it would be. What makes you think M$ could do a better job with Symbian? They have a hard time with Windows. And why would M$ want to have anything to do with maintaining Symbian?

Symbian will be around for a long time. WP7 and beyond will not adapt to low-spec hardware. Nokia may well drop MeeGo and go WP7 but M$ will have to make a strong financial argument and other concessions, including Qt in some way and Ovi services. Without those Nokia would become just another generic hardware company.

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Last edited by Crashdamage; 2010-12-26 at 16:00.

gerbick | # 92 | 2010-12-26, 18:10 | Report

If Windows Phone 7 makes better strides into the executive/enterprise market than say... Symbian or Maemo/MeeGo, I honestly could see the step towards MS Windows Phone 7 series.

Maemo plain out was lacking in regards to MS Exchange; lack of provisioning was a problem.

And despite the Ars Technica writer having a pro Linux and open source slant, the majority of this forum still will disregard his somewhat unbiased article; people will instead surround the fact that Elop is an ex-MS executive and formulate conspiracies therein.

vkv.raju | # 93 | 2010-12-26, 18:20 | Report

Nokia+Qt+MeeGo+Symbian
&
Microsoft+WP7 are very different. You will never see them together.

However, Nokia+Microsoft+MSExchange+MobileOfficeSuite+ZuneS ervice might be a possibility...

Btw, in general:
ArsTechnica - Credible
Eldar - [NOW, atleast when it comes to Nokia] Nonsense

gerbick | # 94 | 2010-12-26, 18:34 | Report

People used to say that about Apple and Microsoft.

It needs to happen. Maemo under delivered in those regards. WP7 can edit MS Office documents out the box. Also connected nicely to MS Exchange. Maemo/MeeGo needs to learn enterprise post haste.

Not arguing with you; however given this forum's track record, they're going to be credible until they say something counter Nokia.

Then let's see how credible they remain...

ericsson | # 95 | 2010-12-27, 00:04 | Report

Crashdamage, what market are you talking about? The US market where Nokia has never had any market share whatsoever? Or the European/rest of the world, where there has never been an "upper market segment" like we are talking about now, not until the iPhone came along. Sure, there was the communicators and a few HTC devices along with some pimped up gold plated nonsense. But these devices were geek devices, and had a market share of zero in practical terms.

The iPhone was a game changer in the correct sense of the word. It changed the market, it changed the game, and created a market segment where no one has ever been before. Nokia has not lost market shares in that market, Nokia has never been there to start with. It is about time the US bloggers wake up now, open their eyes and look at the real world, the real terrain, not at some fictional map made by god nows who. It is way overdue, it is getting pathetic.

Maemo/MeeGo has never been a strategic decision by Nokia, it was an experiment. Qt on the other hand, was a strategic decision, but not for the reason they are claiming now. Qt was the best (by far) UI platform/library that already worked on Symbian long before Nokia came into the picture. The strategic decision to purchase Qt didn't have anything to do with Maemo, it was simply a positive side effect that was the very foundation of Trolltech to start with, more than a decade ago (code once, deploy everywhere).

Right now Nokia effectively has S40, S60, S60 v5, Symbian^3, Maemo and MeeGo. This is 6 different OS'es that needs to be maintained and developed in addition to all the different versions of RT OS'es Nokia uses. A couple of years ago they only had one, S40. Symbian owned Symbian and Maemo was a hackers wet dream made true by Nokias will to experiment when the influx of money was large. Nokia closed down SF and sacked some 1800 software developers. This is not something you do when you have 6 OS'es to maintain, and especially not when you don't have any experience developing (application) OS'es, other than S40.

Nokias problem is they have no idea how to make ends meet regarding their OS'es. Some deal with MS is probably the only way to do it, especially regarding Symbian. How much money and recourses MS is willing to put into WM7 may become evident soon. Even MS don't just pour money into things that does not work, and the current WM7 situation does not work, because people don't want it. The PC industry and the mobile industry are two very different things, and MS knows this too well with the previous version of WM. WM was a tiny player compared with Symbian during the whole last decade, and now iOS and Android is there as well. Something much more clever than pouring money is needed for MS to survive this time.

But OK, I'm mostly speculating here. Maybe the whole Nokia/MS rumor is only a new Nokia netbook. Nevertheless, as I see it Nokia has to do something drastic very soon, and so does MS. Nokia needs to regroup and (re)focus on core business, and MS needs to get WM7 out there in any shape or form along with services.

gerbick | # 96 | 2010-12-27, 00:47 | Report

ericsson, although you make a lot of points... I'm willing to bet money that your words will be reduced to either FUD or American-centric propaganda due to your location.

Sad but true.

vkv.raju | # 97 | 2010-12-27, 04:42 | Report

You wrote very valid points but you totally lost me here. Anyways, let us not bother with it too much here.

And so you thought that Nokia+MS would be the best possible solution?

WM7 on Nokia phones is not gonna happen (with 99.99% surity). If (read, a BIG BIG IF) that happens, Nokia will first be written off by the press and then by the open-source developers and then slowly (probably) by its investors. I don't think Nokia would take that much of a risk. First of all, I wouldn't even think that, adopting WM7 on their phones is on Nokia's minds. Well for Microsoft, they would definitely love that to happen but that would just remain as a wish only. And I bet they too know this. It's just that some bloggers are having free-hits and fun and also making some extra money in this process. This is always good especially near the holidays.

Strategies are of different nature:

• Long-term
• Short-term

Pros of a short-term strategy:
Quickie!
Tempting & Attractive (like a hooker). Long legs, etc...
Will gather people around her in very quick time

Cons:
Eventually, she will take all your money and run away. Btw, she will run too fast...

Pros of a long-term strategy:
Will be faithful to you like your spouse. Long-term.
Will take care of you in need.

Cons:
Time taking. Tests your patience.
Requires understanding.

The way the mobile devices are playing roles in our day-to-day lives and activities, I will probably not risk with a company that adopts a short-term (aka short-sighted) strategy.

I have a right to make my decision and so do you.
I choose freedom. I block ads. I HATE DECEPTION.

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Last edited by vkv.raju; 2010-12-27 at 04:45.

gerbick | # 98 | 2010-12-27, 06:20 | Report

Erm... what deception!? I'm all for discussion; however there are some things that just... well, don't make much sense sometimes.

I swear some folks just type out some inane rhetoric that sounds cool, but it's honestly drivel. What does ads have to do with Nokia possibly working with Microsoft?

From what I see... absolutely nothing.

Let's be honest for a moment. Nokia needs to have deeper enterprise integration. Heck, Evolution does damn near everything that Nokia needed for Maemo... they didn't port it, include it, optimize it, or take parts of it. Modest sucked. I have no kind words for it other than... it "worked".

Mind you, I'm not for Microsoft and Nokia working together - their cultures couldn't be further apart. But as it stands, some things stated in this thread make sense... some just don't.

I'm not picking on you, vkv.raju, you honestly tend to be one of the more sane voices around here. But at the same time, I fear that Nokia needs to do something better than the others. Android isn't enterprise ready; not as well as Blackberry is at least. Apple is starting to learn how to be enterprise ready, but it feels really tacked on.

And the days where the Nokia communicators were the de facto manner to edit docs, connect to an enterprise network, "get stuff done"... that's all somewhat in the past if you're in North America.

If Nokia needs to do anything, it's to take existing abilities, keep their existing build quality, advertise a bit more effectively and above all... finish and support a project for more than a few months.

porselinaheart | # 99 | 2010-12-27, 06:46 | Report

erm, what do u mean there wasn't an 'upper market segment' before the iphone came along??? i beg to differ. phones like the n95, n82 were clearly upmarket when they came out and even further back models like the 8850, 8810, etc were definitely considered to be higher end. These phones garnered a sizeable market share back in their day as well, mate. Of course this was back when the US was still using flip phones with external antennae, monocolour displays, etc.

ericsson | # 100 | 2010-12-27, 10:32 | Report

What I mean is that both the N95 and N82 were contemporary with the first iPhone. Lots of people still use the N95 and N82 because there is no newer/better devices of that form factor. It stopped there, that particular market segment disappeared. The iPhone market segment emerged. The N95 and N82 market segment was miniscule compared with the iPhone segment today, even though it was much larger than the communicator segment. Trust me on this, dividing the market in "upper", "mid" and "lower" in terms of analyzing the mobile industry will get you nowhere because it does not work like that. It is constantly changing, new segments emerge, older disappear. What we (well, not me) refer to as "upper" is in fact the new segment created by Apple, and the iPhone is all alone in there, the same way Nokia was all alone in the "N95-N82" segment. In Fact creating new market segments is what the mobile industry is all about, and it is more evident now than ever. Android created a huge one. We got expensive phones and cheaper phones in there, but it is still one single Android segment.

@vkv.raju I never said that Nokia + WM would be the best possible solution. What I said was that Nokia + WM may very well be the only solution that will bring both Nokia and MS into the future without neither of them braking the back in the process. But let's face it, Nokia with WM/Symbian and seamless integration of MS and OVI services would be a gamechanger that the whole world would love (some would of course love to hate it ) Devices in all categories would penetrate the market, from the cheapest no nonsense phones (but Nokia build quality) to business phones, to gamer phones, to camera monsters, to 4.5" internet browsers, everything neatly integrated with OVI/MS servises. This is where Nokia wants to be, and this is where MS wants to be; they want to get devices out there to get those services up and running.

Then ask yourselves, how will MeeGo help Nokia doing this? How will MeeGo help Nokia getting those needed tightly integrated MS services? Right now OVI is an app store and a music store, it works well enough on Symbian, but it needs more. It needs mail services, it needs IM (a real one), it needs back end office services, it needs everything that MS already has. The plans for Meego are good, but how is Nokia going to execute those plans when they can't even get one single MeeGo device out there, and they have to enlarge OVI two or threefold in terms of different services. I have no idea how Nokia is going to pull this off alone. I think the MeeGo plans are from a time when Nokia still thought SF would catch on, and with it, all the services needed would pop up. Services that could easily be used for MeeGo as well. SF is gone, 1800 software developers sacked, OVI is still only app and music. Time to execute some real leadership within Nokia.