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TA-t3 is offline TA-t3
2007-11-06 , 09:37
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#21
Well, as far as I'm concerned the PalmOS application user interface is way better than gtk or anything running on Winmob devices. Go into edit mode? Just tap on the item. No buttons needed, no walking up and down menu hierarchies. And so on. Yes, I would like to have the API available for the NIT. If it's feasible? Could be that it isn't, or Access (and before that PalmSource) wouldn't have spent years on it without getting there.
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lardman is offline lardman
2007-11-06 , 11:15
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#22
In terms of apps I think you'd be better off copying the Psion ones (i.e. calendar, todo, etc.).

If you want a runtime to support lots of pre-existing apps then what about porting the OPL runtime. Source code is available (written in funny Symbian C++) for anyone who fancies it.
 
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aflegg is offline aflegg
2007-11-06 , 13:25
Posts: 1,463 | Thanked: 81 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ UK
#23
Absolutely, the EPOC R5 built-in application suite is the de facto minimum standard for any mobile device. And it's 12 years old.

Agenda and Jotter were fantastic. And Data, Word and Sheet are all excellent applications to have - and gave a really rich and functional device out-of-the-box.

Having a port of ER5's Agenda with some standards-based synching OTA (e.g. SyncML) would be my idea of nirvana. I might have to give the latest GPE a try, admittedly, since it's been a while since I used it last.
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Traecer is offline Traecer
2007-11-10 , 23:32
Posts: 165 | Thanked: 9 times | Joined on Jul 2007
#24
Originally Posted by TA-t3 View Post
Well, as far as I'm concerned the PalmOS application user interface is way better than gtk or anything running on Winmob devices. Go into edit mode? Just tap on the item. No buttons needed, no walking up and down menu hierarchies. And so on. Yes, I would like to have the API available for the NIT. If it's feasible? Could be that it isn't, or Access (and before that PalmSource) wouldn't have spent years on it without getting there.
You're confusing Application Programming Interface with a User Interface. You're also confusing the past and the present.

One of the things I always loved about Palm devices is exactly what you describe: just tap and start writing. In Date Book, an event is created; in To-do, a todo list item is created, in Memos, a new note springs into existence. But "Date Book" is not the Garnet "Calendar"; to do anything with that calendar event or Tasks item, you have to go into Palm's annoying dialog boxes. Palm's UI has gotten cluttered in recent years, and it needs to be cleaned up.

Although choice of API influences User Interface, they're different animals. There's really no reason (AFAIK) why someone couldn't write a GTK-based calendar app that allowed you to just start typing to create a calendar event; it's just that no one has. But GTK is relatively consistent across platforms; a GTK app on Linux runs more or less the same way on Windows (Pidgin comes to mind), and with some caveats, on Maemo. Palm changes things to Garnet with every new device, so just because your app works on all devices today doesn't mean that it will run on Palm's new device tomorrow. This isn't because they've introduced any new features though; Palm OS "5.4.9" has been running every device they've made since the LifeDrive.

My point is, Palm is toast. Their OS is old, bad, spaghetti code. The mobile Linux community should learn from their UI successes (and mistakes) and make their own apps. Trying to bring the current Palm crud to Maemo is only asking for headaches. Nokia buying Palm (the original topic of this thread) would be throwing away money, as the software in question would be useless on Maemo or Symbian and the people in question have been working on the computer equivalent of an evolutionary deadend.
 
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Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2007-11-11 , 00:54
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#25
Originally Posted by Traecer View Post
There's really no reason (AFAIK) why someone couldn't write a GTK-based calendar app that allowed you to just start typing to create a calendar event; it's just that no one has.
Actually, that is quite impossible on the 770-N800 (maybe not on the N810): You cannot start typing unless you have selected an editable area first. As Sean Luke pointed out, this is also one of the weaknesses of Maemo as a handheld platform.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2007-11-11 , 00:59
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#26
Yeah, the N810's keyboard does offer advantages there. For instance, I can just type into fields over rdesktop without touching the screen.

But the way every app should work on the tablets, IMO, is that a cursor pops up in the first or default editable field in any and every app upon opening. It frustrate sme that this is not the case.

Just don't get me started on lack of a dedicated tab key on the N810... : /
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johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2007-11-11 , 02:06
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#27
Originally Posted by Traecer View Post
There's really no reason (AFAIK) why someone couldn't write ... it's just that no one has.
And my point is: no one has.

Whether or not "someone can" is like discussing the capabilities of vaporware that hasn't even been designed yet, much less delivered. It's irrelevant.

What is relevant is: there IS a base of productivity apps out there. There IS a user community out there that is hanging on to that base of applications waiting for a new thing that will support them. If you want to discuss what someone could do, someone could steal both of those things by providing a compatibility layer to fill the gap until that application community ports to a new native platform. Give them a direction, that is solid, usable, and has promise, and you can bet that they'll take it.
 
lardman is offline lardman
2007-11-11 , 11:04
Posts: 2,102 | Thanked: 1,309 times | Joined on Sep 2006
#28
And my point is: no one has.

Whether or not "someone can" is like discussing the capabilities of vaporware that hasn't even been designed yet, much less delivered. It's irrelevant.

What is relevant is: there IS a base of productivity apps out there. There IS a user community out there that is hanging on to that base of applications waiting for a new thing that will support them. If you want to discuss what someone could do, someone could steal both of those things by providing a compatibility layer to fill the gap until that application community ports to a new native platform. Give them a direction, that is solid, usable, and has promise, and you can bet that they'll take it.
Let's be realistic here, it would be far easier (less man-hours of work, licensing, etc.) to write a calendar app than to try converting the Palm API and from what you're saying you also need a binary compatibility layer so that some of the closed source apps (like the PIM apps) could be run.

Therefore you'd be better off petitioning Nokia to release a set of PIM tools if that's your main concern.

In terms of the application developers, if they see a toolchain that is reasonably easy to use, and the Nokia devices build up a reasonable following (in the same way that Psion and Palm did) then these people will simply change language/tools and write for the Nokia instead.

I do think that the controlling factor here is whether a given developer has one of these Nokia tablets. People don't write applications for platforms/devices that they don't own (unless they are similar enough e.g. 770 vs n800 vs n810). So my conclusion is that the more people buy these devices, the more applications will be written (which is reasonable I think). It's a shame that there's no official OS2008 for the 770, which is now very cheap and a good way to get developers to try the platform and move over from something else like Palm.
 
TA-t3 is offline TA-t3
2007-11-11 , 15:10
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#29
Originally Posted by Traecer View Post
You're confusing Application Programming Interface with a User Interface. You're also confusing the past and the present.

One of the things I always loved about Palm devices is exactly what you describe: just tap and start writing. In Date Book, an event is created; in To-do, a todo list item is created, in Memos, a new note springs into existence. But "Date Book" is not the Garnet "Calendar"; to do anything with that calendar event or Tasks item, you have to go into Palm's annoying dialog boxes. Palm's UI has gotten cluttered in recent years, and it needs to be cleaned up.
I'm not as confused as you think.. I'm totally aware of the difference between UI and API, but I deliberately didn't make that distinction in my posting. The reason is that there is _nothing_ in the GTK+ API that can be used to give you the PalmOS UI. The whole GTK+ API is defined with another philosophy in mind, which is the traditional menu/hierarchical UI typical of most desktops.

As for the Garnet Calendar and Tasks - I'm still simply tapping. I'm not certain what exactly you're refering to, but maybe you're using it differently. For me the calendar couldn't be simpler to use.
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Last edited by TA-t3; 2007-11-11 at 16:27.
 
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timsamoff is offline timsamoff
2007-11-11 , 16:11
Posts: 1,605 | Thanked: 1,601 times | Joined on Mar 2007 @ Southern California
#30
Palm OS does actually have a paradigm that I wish maemo had: Useful core apps (e.g., PIM, life organizational stuff) that sync from the device to any computer and then can be altered on the computer (via PalmDesktop) and synced back to the device.

Functionality, gracefulness, age, love/hate Palm aside, this is very user-centered. Apple has succeeded in this as well with iTunes being their PalmDesktop.

If the ITs had a platform-independent desktop app that synced with a number of useful core apps (calendar, email, todos, contacts, mp3s, photos, video, etc.), plus it could be upgraded without losing all of that stuff (yes, I know this will happen with OS2008, but Palm has been doing it for decades), I think it would be very well received.

So, in this regard, I can see why the original poster felt led to begin this discussion.

Tim
Last edited by timsamoff; 2007-11-11 at 16:15.
 
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