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polossatik is offline polossatik
2008-03-31 , 18:04
Posts: 126 | Thanked: 23 times | Joined on Jan 2008
#21
I second your feelings Roger, in my IT area I'm a "guru" (no OS stuff), but I simply can't be bothered to digg into every corner of a OS to do things that are plain simple from *user* point of view.

I bought the N800 especially as "on the road" backup solution for my photography (and that's more or less coming alright now) and to be able to upload things and check web based mail.
So I got it and it's doing that. bravo. really.

But if I see all the other possible things who are so badly "finished" (from user experience point of view) I find it a waist of resources.
And find all the reactions here on a request like (just a example) "the Tablet could use a decent PIM-calendar etc) that simply works out of the box" rather silly, to the extent that some OSS zaelots keep on say'ing "you can write you're own". Indeed, I might be able to do so, but I did not bought the damn thing *to spend months writing my own PIM suite*.
The damn thing has more cpu/ram/disk then my mobile but even that gives on it's little screen a *much* better "experience", I can only wonder what it would be to have a good set of tools that actually uses the screen estate in a decent way.
And I just wished I could leave my MP3 player at home if I taken the N800 with me, but so far non of the offerings offer the experience of a "real" MP3 player.
And then the "core side", the "internet side", to check your mail in gmail the browser is fine, but all to often it's a pain to use.
Last edited by polossatik; 2008-03-31 at 18:09.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-03-31 , 18:10
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#22
Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
The reason I write a blog called Internet Tablet Users blog is that I have an unyielding resistance to leaving the realm of what-a-typical-user-is-expected-to-know.
Well, ideally (if we're on the subject of users), a user shouldn't even have to consider root access, but, like I said, this is still an immature platform (and still a platform primarily intended for developers), and these issues are part of the growth.

Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
And if you think getting the cam capability to work with Google Talk is easy, you're mistaken.
I've done it in OS2007 and OS2008 from a bunch of different locations to several different people with NITs (for GTalk) and PCs (for Gizmo). I can't say that I ever had a problem with either, so, perhaps I am, but I'm simply speaking from experience.

Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
Good answer for 2005. 2006 too. Probably not for 2007. Not at all for 2008. IMO.
I'm sorry, what? Flashless updates are literally a month away. The point is irrelevant now. I suppose if you want to complain about how long it took them to get there I'd understand, but that's just a little unproductive.

Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
I was indeed referring to rootfs extension. Since you can't increase the IT's RAM, swap is the only way to get a bigger workspace. Now, again, I don't have a problem with requesting this particular enhancement.
TA-t3 covered the basic technical issues pretty well in his post, but I'll expound further.

FAT doesn't support permissions, so to run executables off of a FAT partition you'd need to put together some sort of ugly hack—bad plan, that's out. The next option is to switch to a filesystem that supports permissions, so, basically, Ext2/3. Great, but, oops since Linux is the only platform supports Ext without extra work from the user, looks like all those poor Windows and Mac users wont be able to mount their card anymore.

Since we can unify the filesystem on the card, we partition it, right? OK, this could work, now we just have to partition the card, so, take your card, backup everything you need off of it, and put it back in. Good, now take it back out and put everything back on it. Oh, doesn't fit? Where did my 512MB go? Why can't I use that?

The consumer-usability point is an important one. What happens when the user removes their card (or swaps it out for another) and loses all their installed applications? Or the card dies? Or they want to take it out and plug it into their Windows (or OS X) machine and it asks to format it?

Point is, it's a non-trivial thing to do, both from a technical standpoint and from a user's point of view. It may seem simple, but it's not.
 

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RogerS is offline RogerS
2008-03-31 , 18:14
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#23
Originally Posted by sachin007 View Post
i have to say that the video call between two gtalks on two internet tablets are a nobrainer..... and it worked every time i tried. I seriously can't imagine anyone not getting it to work. May be something wrong with the network you tried or something else.... but it is very very straightforward.
This is what we were expecting. (And why I kept persisting for so long.)

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that that's your experience. I wasn't wrong to expect it.

Since it wasn't what happened to us, I guess what I wish for is something at hand that says "If this isn't dead-simple, maybe such-and-such is to blame. Or try looking at some-other-thing to see if that's why you can't get the cam call to work."

For that matter, I already did get half my wish (at the time), which was that Gizmo and Skype would get this working.

I'll be trying Gizmo's cam calls when I get home.

Roger
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Benson is offline Benson
2008-03-31 , 18:19
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#24
Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
I did install easyroot. But why did I need to? If it's simple enough for a single install to make things work naturally (eg, the same as with other Linux distros), why not just have a switch somewhere in the Control Panel -- "Let Linux be Linux, remove super-protector features".
Ummm... It doesn't seem all that different to me, but OK. It's a bit wierd to be installing the root-enabler; my expectation would have been that root is naturally accessible, but that you have to install xterm to make use of it. (As xterm is not of horribly much use without root access.) Either way, I have to make some installation/reconfiguration to convert a consumer appliance into a computer; to me, that's expected.

(Oh, and if you want Nokia's reasoning for keeping root access locked down, I think it's cause there are no other good options without requiring every user to be aware of root's existence by setting the root password on initial setup. But you seem to be cool with some default lockdown, just concerned with how it's to be gotten around.

Your suggestion that it should be "the same as with other Linux distros" assumes homogeneity of those other distros. In reality, they range from
  • running as root normally (Lindows; I don't know if recent versions of Linspire are still like that)
  • giving you sudo all/nopasswd/all (but not su, to encourage only doing the one thing that needs root as root) (Ubuntu)
  • Conventional UNIX behavior, su and you need the root password (Slackware)
We seem to have fallen a little off the "safe" end of the spectrum, but it doesn't seem that hard to start opening things up.

I've installed fonts before and used them, in FBReader.

Can you add a new font to your IT and choose it in the browser in under 30 seconds? Under 3 minutes? Sure can in our desktops.
I don't need to change my browser font very often; it wouldn't bother me if it took a half hour, really. Now, terminal font, that's another story. And fortunately, once I found about fc-cache, it's easy and painless.

It quickly becomes obvious that microb is missing any sensible configuration method; you can either go to about:config, or you can settle for the three-checkboxes preferences dialog. And that's a sad failing, even though I'd be using such config for lots of other stuff, not for fonts.
 

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2008-03-31 , 18:24
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#25
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
FAT doesn't support permissions, so to run executables off of a FAT partition you'd need to put together some sort of ugly hack—bad plan, that's out. The next option is to switch to a filesystem that supports permissions, so, basically, Ext2/3. Great, but, oops since Linux is the only platform supports Ext without extra work from the user, looks like all those poor Windows and Mac users wont be able to mount their card anymore.

Since we can unify the filesystem on the card, we partition it, right? OK, this could work, now we just have to partition the card, so, take your card, backup everything you need off of it, and put it back in. Good, now take it back out and put everything back on it. Oh, doesn't fit? Where did my 512MB go? Why can't I use that?
Well, you'd have the same trouble making a swap partition, but they use a swap file instead.
You could do the equivalent of a swap file; a loopback filesystem...

But of course, this \/ is valid still.
The consumer-usability point is an important one. What happens when the user removes their card (or swaps it out for another) and loses all their installed applications? Or the card dies? Or they want to take it out and plug it into their Windows (or OS X) machine and it asks to format it?

Point is, it's a non-trivial thing to do, both from a technical standpoint and from a user's point of view. It may seem simple, but it's not.
 

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2008-03-31 , 18:25
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#26
Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
:-)

(Any real way to answer that?)

My hope isn't that all the power will be released in the Internet Tablets, but that POLS will be better implemented and the things one wants to do often will be made easier to use.

Roger

(Following the principle of least surprise means that when the user doesn't know what to do, he or she tries what seems most logical (based on how everything else works) and, sure enough, it works somewhat the same in this circumstance. )
From whatever side you look at it, root access is bad to a normal user and it is not easily accessible on a desktop system too. Yes, Nokia took one step further to disable accidental root access by default and i second that. No power user can find hard to install the one package needed to enable it.

VFAT is not a very bad, but not very good decision too, but at least Nokia could have modified the application manager to allow install access there, the current situation is just wrong.
 
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-03-31 , 18:25
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#27
Originally Posted by Benson View Post
It quickly becomes obvious that microb is missing any sensible configuration method; you can either go to about:config, or you can settle for the three-checkboxes preferences dialog. And that's a sad failing, even though I'd be using such config for lots of other stuff, not for fonts.
. . . and, unfortunately, I believe it's largely related to that dirty, rotten, piece of crap, abomination-before-god-and-nature, sonofa***** UI spec—the one we can't file bugs against.

:explodes:
Last edited by GeneralAntilles; 2008-04-06 at 22:31.
 

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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-03-31 , 18:28
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#28
Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
But when a rhetorical question is asked, it's because the interlocutor believes the question is already well known. It's not "Why is this feature this way?" It's "Why is this feature still this way? Haven't we brought it up enough times already for something to have been done?" At least, as I see things.
Ok, but HOW has it been brought up?

I look in bugzilla, and I see bugs that have to be affecting most if not all users, and they may have 1 or 2 votes on them and few if any comments. I'm gonna remove my corporate hat here for a second and ask in general: putting yourself in maemo's shoes, how would YOU prioritize bugs? What feedback channel do you utilize-- maemo.org, or itT? No offense to itT (I do, after all, live here ) but it isn't the best vehicle for bugs/requests/etc. Great for brainstorming, but not for ultimate conveyance and management.

Now, some will protest that common users shouldn't have to participate. Fair enough-- there are certainly plenty of advanced users who could do much more about bringing bugs to maemo's attention and/or elevating them to proper priority.

So let's hit it, gang. VOTE ON THOSE BUGS!!! And by all means, argue (respectfully) to get your points across if need be. In a world of finite resources, allocation tends to be determined by volume-- and that doesn't always mean quantity.
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RogerS is offline RogerS
2008-03-31 , 18:31
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#29
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
I'm sorry, what? Flashless updates are literally a month away. The point is irrelevant now. I suppose if you want to complain about how long it took them to get there I'd understand, but that's just a little unproductive.
Point taken.

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
Point is, [extending the rootfs is] a non-trivial thing to do, both from a technical standpoint and from a user's point of view. It may seem simple, but it's not.
I'm sure there are plenty of ways I can get myself into trouble. I keep thinking: This is just one more way. :-)

Making it possible to enlarge the working space is too important to set aside, I think. OK, maybe only 'those of you who laugh in the face of danger' should have this going for them. (Or maybe it's really: 'those of you who won't call Nokia for help when you screw up in one of the afore-mentioned ways.")

Or maybe models should be offered with the option of buying considerably more RAM. One thing we know about electronic devices — future software wants more RAM than current software. A fixed amount obsoletes your IT faster than it ought to.

Roger
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-03-31 , 18:37
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#30
Originally Posted by RogerS View Post
Or maybe models should be offered with the option of buying considerably more RAM. One thing we know about electronic devices — future software wants more RAM than current software. A fixed amount obsoletes your IT faster than it ought to.

Roger
Agreed, but remember: there was a time when most laptops did not offer ram upgrades, either-- and do you remember the costs when they finally did?
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