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	Texrat	2010-08-11 , 05:30
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#41

Originally Posted by silvermountain

No malice intended. Re-read my post with a mickey mouse voice in your head if that helps.

In all blunt honsty, it would help tremendously if you would engage an editor voice. You consistently choose very highly-charged words when there are much better options IF you truly want a constructive exchange instead of back-and-forth *****ing.

I'm not asking for political correctness. Not even close. Just human decency. And that doesn't mean 15 posts of wanton ugliness followed by an "I shouldn't have done that" post.

Show a little humanity, you'll be amazed at the difference in reception.

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	silvermountain	2010-08-11 , 05:32
	Posts: 1,359 \| Thanked: 717 times \| Joined on May 2009 @ ...standing right behind you...	#42

Originally Posted by Texrat

I challenge people like silvermountain to get up, quit complaining, and put their heartfelt ideals to work. Find a purpose for this place, this collection of people. Don't just rant about "council incompetence"-- SHOW the community what you would do better. PROVE it.

I have a hard time respecting the opinions of those who attack the community and/or council and yet refuse to step up and take some of the heat we have.

I don't know what else you want from me. I listed nine areas in this thread where I thought the Council could do a better job - and how.
(Thanks for the non-reply on it btw).

If you seriously have such thin skin you shouldn't be in the role(s) you are in if you feel you need to resort to referring to "people like silvermountain".

So not sure what the heck you want from "people like silvermountain" if a list of points are not enough - or if you are just trolling now. You want me to run for Council tonight?!

I'm done with this crap for tonight.

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	Texrat	2010-08-11 , 05:39
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#43

Originally Posted by silvermountain

I don't know what else you want from me. I listed nine areas in this thread where I thought the Council could do a better job - and how.
(Thanks for the non-reply on it btw).

If you seriously have such thin skin you shouldn't be in the role(s) you are in if you feel you need to resort to referring to "people like silvermountain".

So not sure what the heck you want from "people like silvermountain" if a list of points are not enough - or if you are just trolling now. You want me to run for Council tonight?!

I'm done with this crap for tonight.

I thanked your helpful posts, including the list (most of which I agree with easily). That was my reply for now.

And I really don't get what you expect in response to your generally hostile provocation tonight. I believe I have been more than patient and tolerant. No thin skin at all. Thanking your helpful posts should indicate that I'm trying to be objective in this. I'll thank you when it's warranted, and call out the inappropriate posts as I see them.

And no, I don't want you to run for council tonight. But I would like you to run the next term. Up for it?

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	Jaffa	2010-08-11 , 05:40
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#44

Some of the initial posts in this thread make me wonder how the same people would reply if asked the questions:

Would you miss the Bugmaster, if he was gone?
Would you miss the Webmaster, if he was gone?
Would you miss the Docmaster, if he was gone?
Would you miss the Talkmaster, if he was gone?
Would you miss the Distmaster, if he was gone?

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	danramos	2010-08-11 , 05:53
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#45

Originally Posted by Jaffa

Some of the initial posts in this thread make me wonder how the same people would reply if asked the questions:

Would you miss the Bugmaster, if he was gone?

Would you miss the Webmaster, if he was gone?

Would you miss the Docmaster, if he was gone?

Would you miss the Talkmaster, if he was gone?

Would you miss the Distmaster, if he was gone?

Would you miss the Danramos crowd, if he was gone?

Last edited by danramos; 2010-08-11 at 06:01.

	Jaffa	2010-08-11 , 06:01
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#46

Originally Posted by silvermountain

To 'back up' some of my baseless, pointless bashing

Thanks for this, there's a lot of stuff here, I'll try and address them in clumps.

a) A periodical (monthly?) announcement/post of what issues are on the table at this time - AND what progress has been done on issues that were on the table from the last post,[/quote]

An interesting idea.

b) A periodical (every six months?) bottom-up issue vote on what the Council should address,

Not sure that'd work, to be honest.

c) Dates and people's names assigned to the issues. No more of the 'Will work on'-status updates,

Which people? The Council?

d) A more active Council blog where it is actually mentioned HOW work is being carried out,

The Council blog is currently just over a post a month and its dealing with the important issues.

e) The Council to work to get Nokia representatives active on the forum. Maybe not as active as many members here but maybe arrange some "Ask Nokia" forum threads where questions can be asked and they answer them,

There are Nokia representatives active on the forum. Admittedly there were more in the past but they were driven away by incessant poking and prodding. They weren't marketing drones, like you'd get in an "Ask Nokia" thread. It'd be full of pointless questions which would get bog standard, marketing answers:

When is Flash 10 coming to Maemo?
Why isn't MeeGo going to be officially [and by this they mean Nokia Care, since Nokia are providing support in terms of work, resources and personnel to actually get MeeGo working on the N900] supported by Nokia?
...

f) A static list showing ALL issues/tasks that are currently being worked on, that has been closed out and that are in the pipeline.
All these tasks should have a start-date, resolution date and owner associated with them,

g) Council members to be 'champions' of a set of tasks/issues and go out into the community and show what tasks they own (link it back to the big task list) - and where appropriate ASK community members for help/input, etc to get tasks resolved and/or suggestions for how to escalate it to the ears of Nokia. No one expects 5 people to know how to do everything. Ask.

A few points here, firstly there is a list on the Council homepage of the big issues facing the community.

No, it doesn't have dates alongside it, as we're supposed to be facilitators. You, the community, would need to deliver on things and - frankly - a lot of you don't. The same old crowd does the same things over and over again, and instead of actually contributing to things beyond bluster and noise on the forum, most people aren't proactively going out to help.

There's also no need for the Council to be summarising each month in the Maemo community, as the community - through MWKN - are doing that already.

I'm going to stop responding to these points and instead address the general point.

I have no qualms with the existence of the Council in general (although I am asking myself if the Maemo community will need one for another 6 months - but that's not what you're asking).

I have absolutely no concerns about this Council's performance. We say something and Nokia do jump: just look at the response to the Python issue. You may not think it affects you, but we've taken the concerns of the development community (frankly, a community much more important than the "why isn't the forum structured well" community), represented them to Nokia and Nokia (i.e. Quim Gil and Ronan Mac Laverty) are now investigating what can be done. And this is an issue which will affect users downstream as it will affect the number of applications which get into Ovi for Fremantle, Harmattan and MeeGo.

We're also working - right now - to get more information about the MeeGo conference sponsorship (and will play a part in deciding who gets the sponsorship), so that we can present a useful set of information to the community.

There seems to be a massive need for some expectation management.

Things the Council can do:

Represent community issues to Nokia. Examples: Python in Ovi, accessibility of MeeGo community to Maemo community, MyNokia.
Coordinate and focus community activities. Examples: summits/conferences, assisting with the coding competition as required.
Represent community priorities to the maemo.org paid contributors. Examples: testing infrastructure.
Organise community rewards/opportunities with Nokia. Examples: N900 device programme, summit/conference sponsorship.
Ask for help from the community.

Things the Council can't do:

Change Nokia's corporate mind if they think they have business reasons for it. Examples: MeeGo "officially supported" for N900.
Have much impact on non-community issues. Examples: Flash 10.
Actually work on everything.

These lists are incomplete, but does the inability of the Council to affect whether Flash 10 will come to Maemo (or even get a legitimate response to questions about it) negate the work done on the community issues? Can you see the difference?

Also, the fact that so far the majority of people (granted, hardly a statistical population at this point) either didn't know that there was a Council or feel that they could do without it should also say something.

See my post above, I really don't think it does; because you've got a subset of people who are limited to Talk, and perhaps Extras.

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	danramos	2010-08-11 , 06:12
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#47

Originally Posted by Jaffa

There are Nokia representatives active on the forum. Admittedly there were more in the past but they were driven away by incessant poking and prodding. They weren't marketing drones, like you'd get in an "Ask Nokia" thread. It'd be full of pointless questions which would get bog standard, marketing answers:

When is Flash 10 coming to Maemo?

Why isn't MeeGo going to be officially [and by this they mean Nokia Care, since Nokia are providing support in terms of work, resources and personnel to actually get MeeGo working on the N900] supported by Nokia?

...

I'd wager that the "incessant poking and prodding" was due to the fact that there wasn't much that Nokia itself was doing to make itself available, so Nokia put community heads in place to make themselves available as the punching bags instead. Even the more technical people in the community were finding their limitations and taking it out on Nokia engineers who couldn't say anything.

It's kind of sad to see people who volunteer and become elected to take the constructive suggestions and criticism along with the abuse and foment equally, but not given the tools and ability to do anything about any of it.

I still feel as if Nokia has squarely taken what was once a great idea (leveraging open-source and community) and illustrated what happens when you simultaneously negate the spirit and good will of both and render them tragically impotent.

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mmurfin87	2010-08-11 , 06:25
Posts: 307 \| Thanked: 157 times \| Joined on Jul 2009 @ Illinois, USA	#48

Originally Posted by Jaffa

Some of the initial posts in this thread make me wonder how the same people would reply if asked the questions:
[list][*]Would you miss the Bugmaster, if he was gone?

Yea I think I would since I have had some interaction with bugzilla before and I rather enjoyed the ability to contribute in that manner.

Originally Posted by Jaffa

[*]Would you miss the Webmaster, if he was gone?

Well, I don't want to offend but I can't really say I've noticed any "webmastering" being done apart from the initial setup of ITT->Maemo.org.

Originally Posted by Jaffa

[*]Would you miss the Docmaster, if he was gone?

Who?

Originally Posted by Jaffa

[*]Would you miss the Talkmaster, if he was gone?

Unless you mean Reggie, I have no idea who or what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by Jaffa

[*]Would you miss the Distmaster, if he was gone?

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what he does really.

I'm just an end user with respect to Maemo. I'm something of a developer (mainly for other platforms since I have trouble with linux and maemo) and I have a pet project for Maemo, but its not serious enough to consider myself part of the developer group here. I like to visit this forum (really thats the extent of my interaction with maemo.org) to talk about my n900 and listen to other people talk about theirs. I like hearing news about Maemo. Sometimes I have started discussions about linux and GNU at large, however misplaced they may be here. I had an n800 two years ago and I liked it alot. After I sold it I left ITT. Then I got the n900 and came back to the community.

I love my n900, I'm glad I bought it. I use it every day and there isn't another phone on the market that I would consider trading it for, but I know there soon will be. I know that someday (probably Decemberish) I will join the ranks of people who post the "Goodbye Maemo" threads that people find so annoying.

This is who I am with respect to Maemo.org. Now:

How important am I to the Council and the community at large? What is expected of me and what should I expect of the Council? Does the Council even care about me? Should I just shut up and let other more active people worry about the work you all do? Do I have any standing to even complain?

These are legitimate questions I have.

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slender	2010-08-11 , 06:34
Posts: 2,829 \| Thanked: 1,459 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Finland	#49

@mmurfin87
If you want to follow what guys are doing behind this web layout then i would suggest to search here:

Bugzilla - maemo.org - fixed since last 60 days

But still yeah. It´s bit hard to find what is happening here and three different accounts and spaghetti like webpage doesn't make things easy to follow. One thing what i do not understand is that voting/commenting apps in testing is so crippled (on packages own page). I have given thumbs down votes and do not anymore even remember or know what were the apps and what developer has answered to my comments. I have stopped doing any testing for a while because I find it too complicated to follow. Let´s hope that there will be some kind of result soon.

	cjp	2010-08-11 , 06:36
	Posts: 762 \| Thanked: 395 times \| Joined on Jan 2010 @ Helsinki	#50

Time and time again I'm surprised at how disillusioned people are about Nokia. Nokia is a huge company that's interests lie in: selling mobile phones.

What part of selling mobiles includes: "granting features to old devices that are not yet found in new devices" or "change platform strategy according to what people say on a supporter forum".

Nokia is a company in for making money. Maemo5 was a final prototype and now as they see that MeeGo is their #1 bet of getting back on top, other things must be put aside or on hold. That is what's causing the lack of support and the crap we deal with month in month out. Leave the Council out of this.