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| The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to aegis For This Useful Post: | ||
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2015-01-27
, 09:45
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Posts: 461 |
Thanked: 358 times |
Joined on May 2010
@ Bilbao (Basque Country [Spain])
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#3232
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2015-01-27
, 10:01
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#3233
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Originally Posted by Yminus
In their answer, one reason was performance. I do remember how painful it was to install apps to N900 because every single refresh took like forever - and it did so often! Such behavior would be completely unacceptable in consumer device today, especially if target audience is not strictly restricted to fraction of techies who don't mind such things. Additionally, if account consists of username (like MickeyMouse) and password, it hardly counts as "infringing privacy." So, IMO tradeoff for not having an account is not worth it. You of course have the liberty to make your own choices regarding devices, accounts and information you are ready to share in order to use certain services.
However, as a consumer, if I have a choice to spend my money to a company that collects much data, less data and no data I tend to choose the company that collects no data unless the other companies cannot convince me that they have good reasons for infringing privacy.
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2015-01-27
, 11:20
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Posts: 6,445 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#3234
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
Indeed. And, as Copernicus and I shown, that reason is complete BS.
In their answer, one reason was performance.
I am not assuming anything nefarious on Jolla's side. What I am assuming is that Jolla also fell into the Apple trap and set up their "store" in exactly the same way, "because everyone does it". They did not stopp for 5 seconds to consider the reasons. Far from being "unlike", they were "very much like". Not deliberately, but simply because in the world indoctrinated by Apple no one questions the holy truth.
Now suddenly someone asks for the reason. They cannot just say oops, we were brainwashed by Apple and did not think it through. They have to justify it post-factum. So they make up arguments like "performance" that, when you look more closely, hold no better than a house of cards.
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Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
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2015-01-27
, 11:56
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Posts: 752 |
Thanked: 2,808 times |
Joined on Jan 2011
@ Czech Republic
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#3235
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Indeed. And, as Copernicus and I shown, that reason is complete BS.
I don't think so... I just went through your (+Copernicus') comments on TJC and if anything, it shows that you either did not fully get Jolla's answer, or you don't seem to understand how people use apps.Reposting my answer here:
I don't understand where are you people (@pichlo, @Copernicus) getting the idea that apps (personal repositories in this case) should be tied to a device. If I sell my Jolla, the new owner would not want to see my apps. When I get the tablet, I do want to see the apps I installed on the phone, even though both have different IMEI. Once/if profiles are introduced (multiple user accounts on one device - people have been asking for that for a while), do you want to see the same apps on all accounts, because it is tied to an IMEI? I don't think so...
The idea of personal repositories is ingenious and also a good way to allow transferring apps between devices (just an automatic "install all apps from the repository" command) in the future. When posting my previous post, I was not really convinced that an account was needed, even though I could see how it simplifies the system development, but now I'm sold.
Last edited by nodevel; 2015-01-27 at 12:11.
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2015-01-27
, 12:06
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Posts: 285 |
Thanked: 1,900 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#3236
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Originally Posted by pichlo
Considering that your suggestion has caveats too, I wouldn't call it a BS.
Indeed. And, as Copernicus and I shown, that reason is complete BS.
I am not assuming anything nefarious on Jolla's side. What I am assuming is that Jolla also fell into the Apple trap and set up their "store" in exactly the same way, "because everyone does it". They did not stopp for 5 seconds to consider the reasons. Far from being "unlike", they were "very much like". Not deliberately, but simply because in the world indoctrinated by Apple no one questions the holy truth.
- let's say we have an app store with both free and paid apps
- let's assume that we do it your way, so that everything is bound to the device and not user (account) as you suggested earlier
- let's forget for a moment that by making any transaction you effectively bind your precious private data to the device
- let's assume I bought such device and then some paid 3rd party apps to get wanted functionality on my device
OK, so I bought this device and used it for something. Then there's a glitch which means that the device has to be replaced (as my first Jolla was replaced last spring). How will those apps be transferred to the new device if they have been bound to the original device and not to user account? There are couple of ways I can think of:
- apps would have to have their own way of associating themselves to the device and enabling that change (ie activation keys etc) or,
- Jolla would have to store the information based on IMEI, or
- Let's be "unlike" and just forget about such inconvenience
First part means that burden is placed on app developers. This might be "unlike" but also probably scared away great deal of developers. So not that good idea.
Second part means that apps you bought would be part of the device, which would in turn be annoyance when changing devices. Instead of logging on with some user account and installing your apps to a new device, you would have to do it all manually and then find a way to transfer your paid apps (which might be a bit difficult if ie. your old device died completely). And all that for what? To avoid simple user account (which doesn't necessarily have to identify you as a person at all) and being "not like apple"?
When I get my Jolla tablet, I would like it to go like this:
- Login with my user account
- Get a list of my installed apps (on my Jolla phone) to choose which of them I want to install on my new device
- Get it set up in less than 5 minutes with my preferred apps installed
Do it your way, it would be rather difficult to accomplish. But of course, what can't be sacrificed for just being "unlike apple"
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2015-01-27
, 12:14
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Posts: 764 |
Thanked: 2,888 times |
Joined on Jun 2014
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#3237
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
I think this really sums it up.
And all that for what? To avoid simple user account (which doesn't necessarily have to identify you as a person at all) and being "not like apple"?
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2015-01-27
, 14:23
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Posts: 6,445 |
Thanked: 20,981 times |
Joined on Sep 2012
@ UK
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#3238
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Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
There is a difference between a solution that "has caveats" and one that does not work!
Considering that your suggestion has caveats too, I wouldn't call it a BS.
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
In the same order:
But please tell me, how would you accomplish this without an account:
- let's say we have an app store with both free and paid apps
- let's assume that we do it your way, so that everything is bound to the device and not user (account) as you suggested earlier
- let's forget for a moment that by making any transaction you effectively bind your precious private data to the device
- let's assume I bought such device and then some paid 3rd party apps to get wanted functionality on my device
- Yes, let's imagine that hypothetical situation
- I did not say everything. Do I need to repeat that ad infinitum? I said what is installed on the device. That is the property of the device, nothing else.
- You do? How? What data? Sorry, you've confused me.
- OK...
Originally Posted by JulmaHerra
There is this mysterious process I've heard about somewhere. If only I could remember what it is called... Oh, wait, I know: "installation"!
OK, so I bought this device and used it for something. Then there's a glitch which means that the device has to be replaced (as my first Jolla was replaced last spring). How will those apps be transferred to the new device if they have been bound to the original device and not to user account?
For cases like replacing a broken device, there is this thing called a "backup". A decent OS can make a backup that, amongst other things, contains a list of installed applications. You "restore" this "backup" on your replacement device and hey presto, all the applications are installed anew.
You are suggesting nothing more than moving this backup out of your control and have it on some central server in Helsinki. Not that there is anything wrog with that per se, but it should not be compulsory.
Most of the rest of your post talks about things like:
- Making sure you have the same applications installed on two different devices.
This is basically about the "centralized backup" as mentioned above. Well, I am the kind of a person who
a) May want two devices with completely different application sets;
b) Does not mind to install the same appliocation twice;
c) Would be p!$$ed off if the device forced the same app sets on my two devices because I used the same account. As happened with Android: the same patch from Motorola was forced on another device in our household. Who cares that the other device was a Samsung? It used the same account. - The transfer of intellectual property.
This is the only case when "something" - not the application, but the right to install it - is associated with the person. An account does not entirely answer that if it can be shared but it is better than nothing. An account also does not help if the app developer wants you to buy a different license for each device, so the developers will just have to suck it and put up with Jolla's distribution scheme. Luckily (for Apple followers, that is) there is alraedy a precedence that people are used to.
Provided these are the arguments for having a user account, then I am willing to accept them. Not unconditionally since, as I explained above, it also has its caveats. It could work as a "convenience" for some but not for others. In that case, the account should be optional: if you want to use these features, sign in to your account. Just like on TMO: free to read anonymously, but if you want to vote, post and keep track of what you have read, you must sign in.
However, eric did not mention any of those things. He said,
The Jolla account is required in order to serve better updates and of course roll them out as we've been doing with the First Ones.
Another extremely important aspect is performance to access the store fast. The private repository only add the packages of the repository metadata that the user has actively selected/"installed" in the UI. This helps reduce the duration of repository transaction. on the N900 e.g. you often had to wait 2 minutes after every installation or uninstallation because the repositories contained everything.
EDIT
Sorry to bang on about it, but it has just occurred to me: we have two Jollas in the family, both sharing the same account. The two have very different application sets. To the point that the only thing the two have in common is the preinstalled apps.
Now here is the crux: at no point in using either device has the option of synchronizing the application sets been offered by Store. In other words, JulmaHerra's idea of a central backup and an easy transfer from device 1 to device 2 is moot too.
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Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Русский военный корабль, иди нахуй!
Last edited by pichlo; 2015-01-27 at 14:53. Reason: spelling + grammar
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2015-01-27
, 14:43
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Posts: 4,117 |
Thanked: 8,901 times |
Joined on Aug 2010
@ Ruhrgebiet, Germany
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#3239
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BTW
can anybody tell me where the data goes that you have to enter on first switch on, i.e. account, name, surname, telephone, birthday and so on?
I would to see that anywhere in settings or in a file or?
And would like to know if this data gets synchronized with jolla online account data?
can anybody tell me where the data goes that you have to enter on first switch on, i.e. account, name, surname, telephone, birthday and so on?
I would to see that anywhere in settings or in a file or?
And would like to know if this data gets synchronized with jolla online account data?
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SIM-Switcher, automated SIM switching with a Double (Dual) SIM adapter
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Thank you all for voting me into the Community Council 2014-2016!
Please consider your membership / supporting Maemo e.V. and help to spread this by following/copying this link to your TMO signature:
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2015-01-27
, 15:00
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Posts: 1,055 |
Thanked: 4,107 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Norway
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#3240
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Originally Posted by pichlo
While you may be right, package management systems don't work that way (and probably shouldn't, because aside from being slightly inefficient, you've got an information leakage!)
And this is the part I object to. What is installed on the device does not depend on the account. It depends on what is installed on the device. Using the account to speed up the metadata refresh is just not going to work. That is the typical "map versus terrain" problem. Only the terrain reflects reality accurately.
Right now, when upgrading, your friendly package management system says: "please give me a list of all packages and their versions". Then it determines which versions are newer, of the packages you have installed, and it updates them appropriately.
This is the point that didn't scale: with extras, this meant downloading metadata for every third party package anyone had ever uploaded, no matter if you had it installed or not.
With this system, it says "please tell me what my private virtual repository contains", and it is sent metadata only for packages that have been installed over the store.
As far as I understand it, your proposal is: "I have these packages installed locally, please send me metadata for them". This is inefficient, at least on the Jolla device, because packages are split across multiple different repositories: you would be uploading metadata for every package on your device for n different repositories, and only a tiny subset of those would apply to each seperate repository.
The "information leakage" I mentioned is that you're now implicitly saying "hey, I have this installed, and it's at this version". This sounds harmless, except it now lets an adversary know more about your systems and how to attack you. This isn't much of a problem if you only ever install things from the store, but if you ever had software you wanted to keep to yourself (self-developed, or whatever), this leaks that information.
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i'm a Qt expert and former Jolla sailor (forever sailing, in spirit).
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i'm a Qt expert and former Jolla sailor (forever sailing, in spirit).
if you like, read more about me.
if you find me entertaining, or useful, thank me. if you don't, then tell me why.
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