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2007-10-13
, 05:36
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Posts: 662 |
Thanked: 238 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
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#12
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Hildon's code may be half-decent, but it's current implementation on the Tablets is just horrible! So much real estate wasted and so many resources being eaten up by Hildon and Nokia's other programs that aren't necessary. (Damned crawlers and such).
I actually think an unmodified KDE uses the screen's real estate more efficiently, and just generally makes me like the tablet more. (I don't know why beyond the obvious aesthetic reason, but it feels so damned powerful when I see KDE running on my NIT and Laptop
). I don't ever think I would spend any amount of money purchasing a license to use Hildon. Ever.
That little rant aside (sorry ^^"), I think someone oughta get the latest GTK+ libraries out in the open, pre-compiled and pre-packaged for the world to use. And if you were to use Beep, penguinbait, you could just compile those libraries on the side and release them in the garage, which'd be a great help to others.
Hm.... KDE4 looks extremely promising, on another note.
Not so much for mobile devices, though...
I actually think an unmodified KDE uses the screen's real estate more efficiently, and just generally makes me like the tablet more. (I don't know why beyond the obvious aesthetic reason, but it feels so damned powerful when I see KDE running on my NIT and Laptop
). I don't ever think I would spend any amount of money purchasing a license to use Hildon. Ever.That little rant aside (sorry ^^"), I think someone oughta get the latest GTK+ libraries out in the open, pre-compiled and pre-packaged for the world to use. And if you were to use Beep, penguinbait, you could just compile those libraries on the side and release them in the garage, which'd be a great help to others.
Hm.... KDE4 looks extremely promising, on another note.
Not so much for mobile devices, though...
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2007-10-13
, 05:50
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Posts: 3,096 |
Thanked: 1,525 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Michigan, USA
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#13
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I agree about the waste, but whats great is we can coexist it does not have to be all or nothing. I do believe however developing tools in KDE to make the tablet more user friendly would be much preferred to replicating hildon or even worse matchbox anywhere.
I like being able to print a webpage or picture or pdf or whatever. Either way your rant aside, I am not able to help your cause, and I will continue to port a KDE version 2 for your hacking pleasure.
Good luck
I like being able to print a webpage or picture or pdf or whatever. Either way your rant aside, I am not able to help your cause, and I will continue to port a KDE version 2 for your hacking pleasure.
Good luck
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2007-10-13
, 05:52
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Posts: 1,878 |
Thanked: 646 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ San Jose, CA
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#14
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Aisu: no problem on the rant, I expected a more "are you trolling in our KDE thread?" rant, actually (and, no, I'm not trying to troll).
For me, I find the hildon GUI to be the only linux GUI that I've ever found to be both aesthetically _and_ technically pleasing. In fact, I've never found a linux gui to be technically pleasing ... at best, they always seem to me to be a pretty veneer on a rather hollow user experience (enlightenment and windowmaker for example).
As a result, when I see threads about "KDE on N800" or "Windowmaker on N800", I just shake my head and wonder "why bother?"
Now, admittedly, while I did use Windowmaker for many years, I haven't used KDE very much at all ... just enough for it to confirm my existing anti-linux-GUI bias. Whereas 5 minutes with Hildon completely contradicted my anti-linux-GUI bias.
For me, I find the hildon GUI to be the only linux GUI that I've ever found to be both aesthetically _and_ technically pleasing. In fact, I've never found a linux gui to be technically pleasing ... at best, they always seem to me to be a pretty veneer on a rather hollow user experience (enlightenment and windowmaker for example).
As a result, when I see threads about "KDE on N800" or "Windowmaker on N800", I just shake my head and wonder "why bother?"
Now, admittedly, while I did use Windowmaker for many years, I haven't used KDE very much at all ... just enough for it to confirm my existing anti-linux-GUI bias. Whereas 5 minutes with Hildon completely contradicted my anti-linux-GUI bias.
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2007-10-14
, 00:16
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Posts: 3,096 |
Thanked: 1,525 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Michigan, USA
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#15
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Originally Posted by johnkzin
Aisu: no problem on the rant, I expected a more "are you trolling in our KDE thread?" rant, actually (and, no, I'm not trying to troll).
For me, I find the hildon GUI to be the only linux GUI that I've ever found to be both aesthetically _and_ technically pleasing. In fact, I've never found a linux gui to be technically pleasing ... at best, they always seem to me to be a pretty veneer on a rather hollow user experience (enlightenment and windowmaker for example).
As a result, when I see threads about "KDE on N800" or "Windowmaker on N800", I just shake my head and wonder "why bother?"
Now, admittedly, while I did use Windowmaker for many years, I haven't used KDE very much at all ... just enough for it to confirm my existing anti-linux-GUI bias. Whereas 5 minutes with Hildon completely contradicted my anti-linux-GUI bias.
I am completely bewildered by your comments, since they seem to be alternate to reality. At least my reailty, Matchbox might be great for a zaurus or other smaller screens, but it is a complete waste on this thing, where there is plenty of real estate. Hildon is great for what it is, but there are much better interfaces out there., from my two cents. The difference in reality perhaps comes from the fact that I have been administrating linux for 10 years, and I love linux. So when someone confines you to a interface such as on the IT, its like a prison. So I must try to break out of it. Breaking the Law, Breaking the Law, ever the rebel, or at least pain in the booty. So thanks for the comments but why you gotta come in here harshing my buzz!!
Welcome to my reality!
KDE, printing, these things seem to me worthwhile to pursue so I did, take em, leave em. Since like I said, you will not be seeing me working on, nor do I have the skill to help the hildon team. So I contribute like others, I make what I like and I share.
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2007-10-14
, 01:13
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Posts: 1,878 |
Thanked: 646 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ San Jose, CA
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#16
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I would make the same extrapolation: when you've been using real GUI's, like the 10 years I spent on Nextstep, and 7 years on OSX, then stepping down to an X based GUI is like being put in a sensory deprivation tank -- suddenly all you have are hollow hallucinations and nothing with depth.
And that's what Hildon has that other linux gui's, that I've used, don't: depth and integration between the different apps. Not quite as solid as Nextstep, but better much than the typical X based GUI or MS. (really, enlightenment and windowmaker were like a masterpiece painted onto a turd).
And, I'll see your 10 years on linux and raise to 20 years using and 15 years sysadmining various unix platforms (including linux, though I have generally avoided linux until the N800). Trust me, it's not lack of experience with Unix, nor Linux, that has formed my opinion. It's exactly the opposite: years of experience using both Unix and Linux systems.
And that's what Hildon has that other linux gui's, that I've used, don't: depth and integration between the different apps. Not quite as solid as Nextstep, but better much than the typical X based GUI or MS. (really, enlightenment and windowmaker were like a masterpiece painted onto a turd).
And, I'll see your 10 years on linux and raise to 20 years using and 15 years sysadmining various unix platforms (including linux, though I have generally avoided linux until the N800). Trust me, it's not lack of experience with Unix, nor Linux, that has formed my opinion. It's exactly the opposite: years of experience using both Unix and Linux systems.
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2007-10-14
, 02:16
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Posts: 3,096 |
Thanked: 1,525 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Michigan, USA
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#17
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Originally Posted by johnkzin
I would make the same extrapolation: when you've been using real GUI's, like the 10 years I spent on Nextstep, and 7 years on OSX, then stepping down to an X based GUI is like being put in a sensory deprivation tank -- suddenly all you have are hollow hallucinations and nothing with depth.
And that's what Hildon has that other linux gui's, that I've used, don't: depth and integration between the different apps. Not quite as solid as Nextstep, but better much than the typical X based GUI or MS. (really, enlightenment and windowmaker were like a masterpiece painted onto a turd).
And, I'll see your 10 years on linux and raise to 20 years using and 15 years sysadmining various unix platforms (including linux, though I have generally avoided linux until the N800). Trust me, it's not lack of experience with Unix, nor Linux, that has formed my opinion. It's exactly the opposite: years of experience using both Unix and Linux systems.
I'll see your 20 years of sysadmin work and call.
Do you have any input into what I should include or fix in KDE for the IT?
I can only say you have your needs and I have mine and they are not the same. If you don't want to use KDE, nobody is twisting your arm. Please continue to use and love Hildon, KDE is by no means a replacement for Hildon although it could be if real developers were onboard. I hate hildon and matchbox, and I think the IT would benefit from a real window manager, and many others agree with me. Many others just like having alternatives. Several thousand copies of KDE, XFCE, OPENBOX, Window Maker hacked up for the IT have been downloaded worldwide. Many more people would be interested in KDE and other window managers if it was made easier to install and perhaps supported. If REAL developers were onboard with creating an alternative. But for now, only my sad attempts to provide an alternative is what we have.
So again if you have some constructive input you would like to provide great, otherwise I am not sure what else to say. Enjoy, or not. Good luck
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2007-10-20
, 01:59
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Posts: 1,878 |
Thanked: 646 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ San Jose, CA
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#18
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I just realized that I think you misunderstood something fundamental about what I was saying. It has to do with your reference to matchbox.
I'm not talking about limiting myself to an 800x400ish screen, or only running all of my apps in a little Xephyr window, inside of some larger windowmanager (KDE, or whatever).
I'm talking about:
a) make the native version of the hildon desktop scalable to larger screen sizes
b) running it in the main X screen, in lieu of another window manager.
Hildon would be your NATIVE window manager/GUI, instead of, say, KDE, Windowmaker, or Enlightenment. You could run it at 1280x1024 or 1900x1200 or whatever.
It'd require making it so that it can open multiple windows that aren't taking up the entire application area, like a more traditional window manager ... and you'd want/need some other status bar icons that aren't so PDA specific ... but other than that, I don't see what would be so limiting about it. I think it would leverage the tight application integration that Hildon has (and a lot of other X based UI's don't), and provide a nice, and unique environment (as opposed to one that just mimics windows or macos).
I'm not talking about limiting myself to an 800x400ish screen, or only running all of my apps in a little Xephyr window, inside of some larger windowmanager (KDE, or whatever).
I'm talking about:
a) make the native version of the hildon desktop scalable to larger screen sizes
b) running it in the main X screen, in lieu of another window manager.
Hildon would be your NATIVE window manager/GUI, instead of, say, KDE, Windowmaker, or Enlightenment. You could run it at 1280x1024 or 1900x1200 or whatever.
It'd require making it so that it can open multiple windows that aren't taking up the entire application area, like a more traditional window manager ... and you'd want/need some other status bar icons that aren't so PDA specific ... but other than that, I don't see what would be so limiting about it. I think it would leverage the tight application integration that Hildon has (and a lot of other X based UI's don't), and provide a nice, and unique environment (as opposed to one that just mimics windows or macos).
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2007-10-20
, 02:16
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Posts: 3,096 |
Thanked: 1,525 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ Michigan, USA
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#19
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Originally Posted by johnkzin
I just realized that I think you misunderstood something fundamental about what I was saying. It has to do with your reference to matchbox.
I'm not talking about limiting myself to an 800x400ish screen, or only running all of my apps in a little Xephyr window, inside of some larger windowmanager (KDE, or whatever).
I'm talking about:
a) make the native version of the hildon desktop scalable to larger screen sizes
b) running it in the main X screen, in lieu of another window manager.
Hildon would be your NATIVE window manager/GUI, instead of, say, KDE, Windowmaker, or Enlightenment. You could run it at 1280x1024 or 1900x1200 or whatever.
It'd require making it so that it can open multiple windows that aren't taking up the entire application area, like a more traditional window manager ... and you'd want/need some other status bar icons that aren't so PDA specific ... but other than that, I don't see what would be so limiting about it. I think it would leverage the tight application integration that Hildon has (and a lot of other X based UI's don't), and provide a nice, and unique environment (as opposed to one that just mimics windows or macos).
I did not mis-understand, I just don't understand. Two people, with similar backgrounds can disagree so vehemently. I think Hildon would work on larger sceens, but I would not want it. I prefer KDE Large/small. The thing I like about KDE is I can easily manipulate it. Function outweighs any other benefit either real or percieved. If its visually appealing but useless it does not provide much benefit.
Regardless, Comparing KDE to Hildon, is like comparing a car to a bicycle. I'll take the car, see you when you catch up. Can we kill this yet, perhaps you should start a thread, or perhaps a business selling Hildon, I am sure Nokia would license it to you, free money.
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2007-10-20
, 02:48
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Posts: 184 |
Thanked: 112 times |
Joined on May 2006
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#20
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Originally Posted by johnkzin
I too fail to see your reasoning. If the turd you're talking about is X11, then matchbox/hildon etc is also painted on the same turd albeit called kdrive (I think). KDE has evolved into a desktop system that outperforms windows and has software that is much easier to use, in my opinion. They both use d-bus for interprocess communication (pretty sure dcop is not used...but I could be wrong) so I fail to see how interprocess communication is any different.......but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I would make the same extrapolation: when you've been using real GUI's, like the 10 years I spent on Nextstep, and 7 years on OSX, then stepping down to an X based GUI is like being put in a sensory deprivation tank -- suddenly all you have are hollow hallucinations and nothing with depth.
And that's what Hildon has that other linux gui's, that I've used, don't: depth and integration between the different apps. Not quite as solid as Nextstep, but better much than the typical X based GUI or MS. (really, enlightenment and windowmaker were like a masterpiece painted onto a turd).
And, I'll see your 10 years on linux and raise to 20 years using and 15 years sysadmining various unix platforms (including linux, though I have generally avoided linux until the N800). Trust me, it's not lack of experience with Unix, nor Linux, that has formed my opinion. It's exactly the opposite: years of experience using both Unix and Linux systems.
In fact, if someone at Nokia is reading this, if Hildon was productized and distributed as free without support, or for money with support, I'd happily pay for at least 2 consumer-level support contracts to run it on my desktop. Maybe more.
So, if there was:
Product (How many support licenses I'd want to buy, depending on price):
Complete Hildon/Debian Workstation (OS, GUI, dev tools*) on x86 (2)
Hildon GUI/dev* for Solaris Sparc Workstations (1)
Hildon GUI/dev* for Solaris Intel Workstations (1)
Hildon GUI/dev* for FreeBSD Intel Workstations (1)
(* both native dev tools for that machine, and cross compilers for developing to the internet tablet)
(I use workstation to mean "supporting a standard desktop type display, with multiple open windows, etc." instead of always being limited to 1 active/open window, things like that)
With the support contract implying that the platform is kept as current as the Internet Tablet version of the platform, with functional fidelity between that given platform and the Internet Tablet. In fact, I'd really care more about THAT than about bug fix support (the current level of support in filing maemo bugs is good enough, IMO).
Having the first one be installable on various thin clients (read-only solid state storage based workstations and laptops, etc.) would be a nice bonus.
Last edited by johnkzin; 2007-10-13 at 05:28.