tobiasj | # 31 | 2007-10-16, 13:47 | Report

After reading through this thread (and thus finding out about abiword which has not crashed on me yet, however I have not tried to change the zoom level.) I have to agree a good word processor would be great, and I hope the developers working on abiword keep at it until it is finished.

I have also tried google docs on the n800 and it works well enough, but it still isnt quite what I need, not to mention is kinda slow on the n800. (though being able to work on the same document from anywhere without manually copying it around does have it's advantages.)

The key is really the BT keyboard though, without it I can't imaging typing an email let alone actually word processing anything. the touch keyboard is ok for small text entry but for anything more than that its just too slow. Even more important than the screen size (ok yes its a bit shallow in depth but it is plenty wide enough and thats whats really important) is the ability to type with some speed and accuracy. since we have the keyboard, I dont think a good working word processor is too much to ask.
I am sure open office would be a bear to try and port plus I am sure there isn't enough umph in the n800 to run it well if someone did. Abiword would be fine for me (heck it IS fine for me now) but even a simple RTF editor would be fine (notepad ++ would be nice as well, but for different reasons)

Ah well, since I couldnt port my way out of a wet paper bag I guess I should be happy with whatever is available...

-John

rs-px | # 32 | 2007-10-17, 17:29 | Report

Well, I spent an hour or two attempting to word process today on my 770, along with a Think Outside foldaway Bluteooth keyboard.

I've got to say it didn't go well.

The main issue is that in both the text editors I tried -- Leafpad and Notes -- there was a strange issue. Whenever a paragraph got above a few lines long, the editor started to slow down, to the extent that by the fourth or fifth line, I was typing very far ahead of the cursor and had to wait for it to catch up. Curiously this isn't happening right now as I type this in Opera, so this isn't a limitation of the hardware. It must be API weirdness.

Then, when the screen had to scoll because it was full of text, it slurred and scrolled very slowly. This wasn't a huge issue, however. More annoying.

I also have slight eye-strain from looking at the screen for such a long period. I made the text quite large but this hasn't helped. Small is small. As somebody pointed out, you're staring at something little larger than a credit card and a keyboard forces you to sit further away from it than you might if you're simply web browsing.

I'm not sure the 770 is cut-out for word processing tasks. I'm not sure if the 800 or 810 are any better.

midwinter | # 33 | 2007-10-17, 18:29 | Report

Can anyone re-create the problems I'm having? If I type "test" into Abiword on my desktop, save it as an Abiword doc, and then try to open it in Abiword on my 770, the app crashes.

Edit: I have had the same problem with my TO BT keyboard, but only on my iPaq. In short, you're not alone.

rs-px | # 34 | 2007-10-17, 19:53 | Report

I use a Mac and I'm not sure of the current situation, but not so long ago the guy who ported Abiword to the Mac said that the program was prone to crashing. Sound familiar? Again, not to deride the efforts of the Abiword developers, but releasing crashing software is just pointless.

There's a pretty good reason why Abiword isn't the open source industry standard. It could be, but it's just too problematic.

As for word processing on the 770, I'm starting to think that GNU Nano is the best bet. I run it in an Xterm. It's a little primitive but I know it won't crash, and it's pretty fast. There's certainly no lag as I'm typing, as with the GUI apps I tried. It reminds me a lot of word processors I used in the early 1990s on my Atari ST. And they worked just fine for me back then

rs-px | # 35 | 2007-10-17, 20:01 | Report

Here's a quote from the Abiword readme from the Mac OS port:

Help needed:
Making sure that AbiWord behaves the way it's supposed to behave. Those developers, tsk tsk, are always too interested in new features and seldom actually use AbiWord. Someone needs to make sure the users are getting what they're (not) paying for.

midwinter | # 36 | 2007-10-18, 01:32 | Report

I'm on a Mac, as well. Could someone write "Test" in a word processor on the mac, save it as an .RTF, then try to open it in abiword on the 770? When I do this, Abiword crashes every single time I touch the screen.

megabyte405 | # 37 | 2007-10-18, 01:45 | Report

Ah yes, the inevitable "word compatibility is a necessary feature of an internet tablet" thread - almost as popular as the calendar/todo/contacts one!

Seriously though, here's the deal.

AbiWord was highly hildonized: what that means is the 2.4.6 version you might be using was specifically ported to not only run on Maemo (2.x - IT2006) but integrate perfectly. It is very nice, but two slightly big bugs: clicking to the right of the margin sometimes crashes, and the version of iconv that ships with the tablets is slightly broken so word files don't import right. The latter problem has been worked around in the AbiWord (actually WV - the word import library) source and should be fixed in future versions. I haven't gotten a chance to look into the other problem yet. This probably comprises the majority of issues on the 770.

Note that I said the 770 - our level of integration is both a benefit and a downfall. Between Maemo 2.x (770/IT OS2006) and Maemo 3.x (bora, N800 or 770 HE, ITOS 2007), some functions were changed in an incompatible way, and though the 770 package that is up there will more or less run on the N800, it is less stable because it's intended for a different version of the OS. (Specifically, if you let the device fall asleep or turn off the display, AbiWord will crash when you try to switch back to it. If you look at the terminal messages from it, if you're geekishly-inclined, you can see the errors - it's because AbiWord wasn't ported to maemo 3.x) If you avoid this one spot and the caveat for the 770 above, you can work around and probably use it OK, though I won't recommend skipping the "save often" advice.

(This is why 2.2.7 works better sometimes on the N800 - that version was minimally Hildon-ized (ported) and so doesn't use the functions of the OS that changed between versions.)

Now, here's the good news. Though the 2.4.x series (which doesn't crash on the pc if you click to the right of the text, I'll have you know ) is the most stable, best version we've put out yet, the upcoming 2.6 version is much, much better, and it's not even done yet. The building for mobile devices (like Maemo) has been overhauled, and it looks like it will be easier for me to get a 2.6.0 release for Maemo than re-do the 2.4.6 or coax people into running a 2.4.7 (which seems pretty unlikely right now). Plus, 2.6 includes real-time Internet document collaboration features, which I'm just itching to try on a Maemo device

A recap of what this means to you: AbiWord is not inherently unstable: most of the problem on the 770 is one bug that is not easy to realize when it is triggered, and most of the problem on the N800 is because we're too good at working on the 770. As time is available to me, I will be working on getting 2.6.0 on the 770, since the port is already there. I own an N800, and so obviously want a version I can use (I've been using Notes then importing the files into AbiWord on my desktop - this works pretty slick actually). So, I hope to have an N800-compatible version of 2.6.0 available when we release that (sooner rather than later). (I'm also the maintainer of the Windows port of AbiWord, so I've got a nice full AbiWord plate here )

With the recent announcement of the N810, I am unsure how I will proceed. As Maemo 4.0 (IT OS 2008) will be available on both the N800 and the N810, I am inclined to skip Maemo 3.0 entirely, and only offer a IT2006 and IT2008 version of AbiWord. However, as I have a bunch of stuff running on my N800 w/ITOS2007 (mainly GPE, SIP/RTCOMM/GizmoProject, Python and UKMP) that I really need on 2008 before I upgrade, and I don't have an N810 (lucky ThoughtFix ) or a spare N800 to use as a test mobile device, the best I could do for testing is in Scratchbox (the cross-compilation environment) at least until the apps I need make it to 2008 and I can upgrade my own device. I would not feel confident releasing something that I hadn't tested myself, especially since I know how highly the community is anticipating a new AbiWord on Maemo version, and I want your high hopes to be satisfied, at least as well as humanly possible.

So, there you go. Timeline-wise, I hope to have a 770-compatible AbiWord 2.6.0 simultaneous-release with the other platforms, and an IT2008 version as soon as I get the porting done and can test it. Depending on the effort needed, the anticipated benefits (or possible drawbacks of ITOS2008, and the time delay for testing, I may or may not make an IT2007 version.

If you want to keep up with what I'm working on, I recommend checking out my website: http://www.cleardefinition.com/ (I'll be working on a "knowledge base" and instructions and such there - that's where my GPE and Evolution/KDE PIM syncing instructions are, etc) and my blog, http://www.cleardefintion.com/blog/ , where I will be posting updates as to my progress. As I am a student as well as a volunteer developer, updates and progress may be intermittent, but trust me when I say this is very important to me too!

Thanks for your patience!

Ryan
AbiWord Win32 Maintainer, Volunteer AbiWord Developer, Google Summer of Code 2007 Participant

ps. I'm sure I've pointed this out before, but threads sink to the bottom and search doesn't always show this. I don't want to single folks out, but I see a "teachable moment" here, to abuse a phrase. Finding people at conferences and telling them something they volunteer their time for (because they feel it is fun/worthwhile/useful) "has always had problems" is not terribly useful. That variety of communication does not do anything to help solve problems, while it does serve to effectively decrease the individual's likelihood of devoting time to something, so please do try to avoid it, whether in real life, email, bug trackers, forums, or what-have-you.

A better thing to do (better even than posting problems in this or another thread) is to file bugs: specific ones, too - don't just say "it crashes a lot" - see if you can find out what steps lead it to crash/goof up/whatever. When someone did that for the Word import bug, the problem was tracked down and a probable fix completed really quite quickly. You're already doing this kind of troubleshooting for each other here, I see it in several posts in this thread - now just take this back to the projects you use and make it useful!

The AbiWord bug tracker is at http://bugzilla.abisource.com and the Maemo bugtracker is at http://bugs.maemo.org If you file a bug on AbiWord on Maemo (in our bugtracker - the maemo one is for built-in stuff), I will at least look at it before 2.6, and if you include good instructions on how to reproduce it, I (or another dev) might be able to fix it, too! Stuff gets lost too easy in a forum - a bug tracker is the appropriate, purpose-designed place for these sorts of concerns.

PPS. Holy cow, that got long fast! I apologize for the verbosity of my reply - I just wanted to address concerns that I saw, and hopefully foster a little bit more patience while I juggle responsibilities here If you want to read more about AbiWord and what I've posted in other threads, which doesn't necessarily overlap with what I said here (what? I didn't write everything possible in this post? ), just search my user name - I've posted in several (I think nearly all) Word Processor on maemo threads.

---

Last edited by megabyte405; 2007-10-18 at 01:47.

midwinter | # 38 | 2007-10-18, 02:00 | Report

Ryan,

Thank you very, very much for your work on this project and for taking the time to post here about what we can all expect in the future.

I'm a bit curious about how people are working around on Notes. If I convert an .RTF file to HTML on my desktop and send it to Notes, when I open it I get code rather than formatted text. Is there some trick I'm missing?

rs-px | # 39 | 2007-10-18, 08:38 | Report

Ryan, thanks for the reply. I too am grateful for your efforts.

I thought about how to reply to what you said, and had a huge essay planned in my head. To give you some background, I'm an IT journalist in the UK and I've written extensively about Linux. I've followed AbiWord since pre-version 1.0. It's been one project that I've hoped would succeed, not least because a decent cross-platform word processor is an essential tool of my trade

But I'm not going to give an essay.

This thread is about wishing for a STABLE word processor. I want a word processor that never, ever crashes. You just can't release a word processor that crashes. I'm not sure how much testing goes on, but I can tell you that the margin bug you mention is not the only way to make AbiWord crash on the 770. If I've got time I'll try and catalogue the major bugs that I found and post them on the Bugzilla. But let's just say they're not in the single figures.

What's always annoyed me about all versions of Abiword on every platform is that alpha and beta releases are pushed-out as full point releases, complete with major bugs. I was astonished when Abiword reached version 1.0 because it still had the quality of beta (or even alpha) software.

I'm sure I speak for other users when I say that, to be brutally honest, we don't care about 2.6. The current release has more features than I'll ever use, bearing in mind that the 770 will only ever be used for elementary word processing on the fly.

All I want is for Abiword to be stable and to work well. I can't stress how vitally important this is. What would you rather drive? An old jalopy that's cast-iron reliable, or a brand new car with all the features but on which the wheels fell off when you go around a corner?

I'd much rather you or somebody else spent time squashing bugs on the current release than bringing us new features, or new versions.

artkavanagh | # 40 | 2007-10-18, 09:41 | Report

Make a copy of your HTML file and give it the "double" extension ".note.html". I should now open in Notes.

I stress the importance of making a copy rather than renaming. You're going to need to keep the original file. As I mentioned before, Notes uses a very small subset of HTML, so you're going to lose a lot of stuff (including heading tags, if I remember correctly) when you save it in Notes.