NITs - what are they good for... ??? - Page 9 - maemo.org

rcsteiner | # 81 | 2008-06-10, 20:33 | Report

Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post

This so so funny. Reading all these "What is it good for?"-discussions and then comparing it to my own experience...

I still have my good old 770, mainly because the N800/N810 isn't sturdy and portable enough. I could join in and enumerate what it cannot do, what it does badly, where there's room for improvement... Blah!

Matter of fact is: It changed my life. It changed the way I use the internet.

Man, you took the words right out of my mouth.

I've also found over time that it isn't that unwieldy to use a VNC client on my 770 to use Firefox 2.0 on a PC in the basement when I run into a site that causes issues and I really want to do something.

In other words, not only does the 770 do a lot on its own, but I can also use it as a portal to my larger more capable machines in other parts of the house which have a lot more software.

I finally picked up a Stowaway bluetooth keyboard for my wife so she can use it with Pidgin on her 770 (she chats on the thing all the time), and it dropped right in with the commonly available bluetooth driver for OS2006. That makes most of the data entry issues go away for her.

I'm just glad Nokia made it reasonably open so it *can* be extended by free software authors.

Last edited by rcsteiner; 2008-06-10 at 20:40.

tabletrat | # 82 | 2008-06-10, 20:33 | Report

Originally Posted by Benson View Post

Well, the OMP came out in 1993, for 3.5-4 years, actually.

Which '97 release are you discussing?

The newton 2.x devices. The 2x00 specifically, although the 120/130 fitted the awesome tag. Actually I think they all did in their way.

Originally Posted by Benson View Post

A kilobuck for a PDA (a brief Google says $950 original price, anyway) isn't necessarily mainstream ready, but the MP 1000 would certainly qualify as awesome.

I never mentioned at what cost!

Originally Posted by Benson View Post

The PalmPilots (Personal and Professional), OTOH, might make the mainstream-ready cut, but don't fit your word "awesome"...

Oh well, two device families, one for low-end, one for high-end... Yep, awesome it was. If only I'd had any money back then.

I didn't, but I managed to get them second hand a bit later (actually I got an OMP back in 95 - it was given to me.

There have been very few devices in my life where I have really been blown away by how completely awsome they were.
The Newtons were there. The psion series 3 probably was too.
I love my NIT, but it doesn't really fit in that catagory.

Benson | # 83 | 2008-06-10, 20:38 | Report

Originally Posted by ddalex View Post

Good points.... I have to stress out that I'm describing my _subjective_ experience. I'm not saying that others don't find these devices useful beside being lovely (and yes, I'm very proud of my toys

). But my point is that we should focus on how to improve the experience of using this device, and pass to Nokia these desires. This sounds a lot like market-droid-speak, but it isn't.

So allow me to quote you in trying to make a constructive approach here (even if it may sound like bashing, and blame-throwing, it isn't; all of you guys, think of this as a post-mortem on the current status of NITs, and a discussion on where we want to take them).

Good point. But NIT's are not the ground-breaking devices they want to be, user experince-wise. We've had time to form an idea about what a PDA does, what a PMP does, what do you expect from a low-end and from a high-end laptop since years ago. In this case, it's not about reinventing the wheel from scratch, it's about taking all the wheel designs made so far and figure out how to make a new better wheel. I'd expect incremental inovation from a known base, not starting from 0 like Newton and Palm did. But it seems that the tablets do not capitalize on that knowledge.

So you say that two years and three iterations is too short to make a new device for a new market out of thin air. I say it's about enough, and the next iteration should be consumer-level. iPods went from nothing to millions sold in less than 2 years.

You speak of iPods going from introduction to millions of sales; that's what Apple does...

But MP3 players had been around for awhile, and were pretty much mainstream-ready; they just weren't mainstream for want of good marketing behind the good ones that were out. That two years was Apple being cool enough to make people want things they didn't previously, not developing a new category of device.

If Apple is taking the IT idea and running with it, it's a good sign that mainstream-ready is within reach. Of course, that's your whole point, that it's in reach, and Nokia's not reaching it.

Originally Posted by

I'm not complaining that the tablets are not at consumer-level so far; but I hope that the next iteration will be at true consumer level; I invested too much passion, energy and interest in these specific devices to watch light-heartadly how it is gonna be surpased and killed by iThings that will lock devs (and myself) out of it. So what I'm trying to do is make Nokia listen to my and my fellow NIT users requests for improvement, and take action on them, so in the next iteration we will get a consumer-level tablet that is still very friendly to developers and OSS crowd.

I think they're understanding this better than you think, that they're listening to feedback somewhat better than you think, and that the next tablet will be cookin', so to speak. They've had a series of that hard luck that characterises life, which made a lot of software things slip and miss the releases they should have been in, but the hardware is unbeatable, and while the OS is an experiment, it's not the only one; remember they had substantial involvement with Ubuntu Mobile, which they're trying to learn from.

Whether they switch to a direct Ubuntu Mobile derivative, or apply what they've learned to make Maemo's development process more community-involved (which is more likely, but not certain), they're gonna get some of what you're after that way.

Originally Posted by

I'm well aware of those pesky lawyers and their legal implications. My point is that the worst position to be in is half-closed and half-OSS. You'll annoy everybody and you'll be in no side. In my country we call this "haveing your *** in two boats will only get you drawned".

Yes it is, but at least they're not adding to the closed-source side with closed-source Java implementations... Using hardware with some elements licensed strictly is a lot different from using closed-source, imho.

Originally Posted by

Two years, three iterations later, I think that this product line should take momentum. If not now, then when ?. NITs already competitors that are on more-or-less equal terms now, and which hadn't the two year advantage. I strongly suspect that if this line doesn't take off now, it will never get the chance again, even if this happens for simple economic reasons.

Well, I'd say it is gaining momentum. Watch the number of new users asking dumb questions in these forums. The N810 is seriously more popular than the N800, even with several distinct downsides and a price tag easily accounting for the improvements (IMHO). Why? There's either a shift in marketing or more marketing, it's got a more consumer-friendly (if less geek-friendly) feature set... I'm not sure of any other explanations, but it is more popular, that's for sure. I can't see the N900 reversing that trend.

Originally Posted by

The guys and girls who built that did it good starting from nothing. It took them 5 years, yes.

They didn't start from zero; they started from other platforms. Other, not really applicable, platforms. They had PCs. We have cell-phones (with no touch screens) and PDAs (with limited functionality expected) and of course laptops (with no touch-screens, with full keyboards and processing power to burn). But Psions were really the only things I'm aware of that were close.

Originally Posted by

But we (read IT community and designers) already have good ideas on how to proceed - why throw away and re-learning everything from scratch how to make mobile computing ? And spending another 5 years on that ? Maemo as platform is already 3 years old, and it's getting dated by the minute now. The moment Android comes alive on a HTC device, doing everything NIT does, but with better capabilites, NITs and Nokia will be in big trouble.

Of course, provided the price is comparable... But Android shows no signs of reaching that state anytime soon; OOo is running under maemo. Maybe not usefully for most people, and only with loads of Debian help, but Android's tossing all compatibility, so it can't do that.

Originally Posted by

I'll repet myself, I belive that this is the latest critical point to change the mission of NIT and make it into a mainstream platform. So think about what should be next in NIT line and voice your thoughts.

I don't think it's a critical point, nor a mission change; I think you could better argue that it's urgent for Nokia to accelerate the existing plan by applying more resources. And naturally, I'd love that; I'm not sure how much effort is required for survival, but it's obvious that the more resources, the better the tablets will do. But we don't know how resource allocation is inside Nokia, and they may already be applying much more effort.

Originally Posted by

Damn, running into limitations. Will follow up on next post.

Let's, and say we didn't!

Bundyo | # 84 | 2008-06-10, 20:45 | Report

Originally Posted by ddalex View Post

iPhone has better hardware

What exactly is better in iPhone's hardware?

Originally Posted by ddalex View Post

But I can't drop a tablet in the same way on someone and ask them to see what's on tonite on the tele, because in 5 minutes they will scream in frustration. Still, I have yet to see someone unhappy with the way their iPhone works. eeePc is a NIT-like story, nobody that isn't a geek is using it.

Nobody screams when i give them my NIT. They just do what they need. Maybe its a miracle.
However i did see someone screaming with frustration when he couldn't copy/paste something on an iPhone.

Originally Posted by ddalex View Post

Why do they have to be separate ? I want both the polish and the openness.

They don't have to, so get in the trench and help, stop with the whining already.

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dglencross | # 85 | 2008-06-10, 20:49 | Report

if i could speak as a non-techie person. and i feel i am well qualified - i would rank myself as better than a normal end-user, but not nearly as good as someone off this forum (i normally post on the newbie section). i'm a student, and already have a phone so didnt need a pda, i bought this to browse the internet, and if i'm honest, it was goodish, but awesome when i finally got unlimited internet on my phone. awesome. i have high hopes for cheating in pub quizzes. also, my parents have moved to manila, somewhere in the philapines, and i have bought GPS so hoping that'll be useful.

to summarise: i can do minor techie things, not experienced at linux at all: i really enjoy the internet tablet - i wish it was easier to do certain things (dependencies piss me off) but overall as an average user (i'd guess), it does exaclty what i want it to. i had a pda and walked into a door and smashed it - i like not having to carry this everywhere as it's not my phone. i could complain about a lot of things, but with my initial expectations, i can't really complain.

dglencross | # 86 | 2008-06-10, 21:02 | Report

btw: in no way do i care what other people think, i was just giving my opinion, as i feel i may represent a cross-section of not-really-techie people who use this device. if not, i don't care, dont PM me or even respond in this thread. i'm a drinker, and won't care

qole | # 87 | 2008-06-10, 21:12 | Report

Originally Posted by ddalex View Post

And what do you prefer ? Somebody telling you that your baby is desfigured by a disease, hurt your feelings, but actually having time and work on a solution before it's too late, or you'd rather be told by everybody how nice and beautiful your baby is, feel all nice, cozy and warm inside, and end up with a prematurely dead baby? Maybe a harsh comparation, but I think we're moving to a turning point here, and NITs must not miss the consumer boat.

Hee hee, I meant "baby" in the sense of girlfriend. And she ain't disfigured, just a little battered up from falling out of my pocket when I bend over and having my 2 year old scribble pictures in Maemopad+. Although if I keep dropping her, she's gonna be prematurely dead

Hurry up, N900!

I hope Nokia understands this: I'd rather have a niche product I can afford than a consumer product I can't.

Benson | # 88 | 2008-06-10, 22:32 | Report

Originally Posted by Bundyo View Post

What exactly is better in iPhone's hardware?

Capacitive multi-touch; in conjunction with a resistive screen for stylus use, this'd be pretty sweet on a NIT.

Bundyo | # 89 | 2008-06-10, 23:09 | Report

So you want two styluses?

Or planning on having long nails?

Of course there's the accelerometers, but I'm not counting them

Wes Doobner | # 90 | 2008-06-10, 23:21 | Report

Hmm, I use my N800 at least 3-4 hours per day. Often more. Between general web browsing for news, checking emails, blogging, dowloading and listening to podcasts and/or music, listening to FM radio, jotting notes in Xournal... sometimes I IM chat w/ my sister or mom...

... I use it in the living room while the family is watching TV - so that I don't have to sequester myself in the den with the desktop; in the, uh, restroom on occasion - wouldn't dare lug the laptop in there; in the car to listen to music/podcasts via AUX plug on my stereo; at work I listen to podcasts/music/FM radio at my desk (THANK YOU NOKIA for the external speakers! DO NOT remove these on the next version)... sometimes I sit out on my back porch eating breakfast in the morning, or having a drink in the evening, and surf the net or listen to internet radio - or both at the same time!... I have pulled my tablet out of my pocket and used it in restaurants, movie theaters, bookstores, airports...

... and NOW I find out it is good for nothing? Damnit. Why am I always the last to find out?

Like benny1967 said - it's changed the way I use the internet.

Last edited by Wes Doobner; 2008-06-10 at 23:30.

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