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Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-06-19 , 20:39
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#51
We have never engaged in "whack-em-and-get-out". We are still in Germany and Japan as what amounts to an occupying force (yeah, yeah, I've heard every explanation of why we "aren't").

And I do see the contradition still, but only because I believe you are operating under severe misconceptions over the jingoism behind what's been touted as "spreading democracy".

You don't force democracy down anyone's throat. THAT is a big contradiction.
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sondjata's Avatar
sondjata is offline sondjata
2008-06-19 , 20:39
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#52
If Libertarians think that government ought to be respective of individual liberty and stay out of the business of the people, then libertarians would also believe that whatever government they have ought not be involving themselves with the internal policies of any other people with liberty. An imperialist thinks they have the right to go to other peoples countries for the benefit of the mother country. Doing so means that the imperialist government must interfere with the liberties of those subject to the imperial government. That is a contradiction.
 
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2008-06-19 , 22:23
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#53
1. There's a fscking war going on that isn't going nearly as well as planned. At a cost of $250 million *per day* add it up and tell me how we're paying for that.
2. Hugely more consumption by India and China.
3. The U.S. dollar is worth a lot less than it was a short while ago.

I am not at all surprised that fuel costs what it does. We ain't seen nothing yet....

Why is this the top priority for voters during arguably the most important election in a very long time? I'm completely dumbfounded by this. Your boys are dieing in a sandy ******** for an unknown cause and we're concerned about fuel prices?

My solution:
. Get out of Iraq right now. Today. This should be the top priority during the America's Next Top President show.

. Shut the fsck up about oil prices and deal with it like the rest of the world has done for a long time. They dealt with it without a meltdown. Innovate like the old days.

. Stop looking to save pennies and do more manufacturing in the U.S. instead of everything from China. Get that dollar back up before it is on par with the peso or lira (no offense to other countries).
 
qole's Avatar
qole is offline qole
2008-06-20 , 00:22
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#54
The best thing about peak oil and huge fuel costs is that it will soon be just as cheap to do on-shore manufacturing as it is to import everything from China. This will create local manufacturing jobs, and reverse some of the worst aspects of globalization. Sure, it will still be cheaper to put your call centers in India, but it won't make sense to design something in the West, get it made in the East, and then ship it back to the West to sell it...

That is, unless China decides to dispense with the facade and turn its almost-slave factory workers into true, unpaid slaves in order to keep the business of the West. They would probably have to provide rudimentary meals and housing, but they wouldn't be able to pay them anymore in order to keep the transportation costs from making their goods less affordable than locally made goods.

I wonder if anyone in the West will really complain?

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
You don't force democracy down anyone's throat. THAT is a big contradiction.
Well, I think you can easily believe that you can force democracy on a nation. It's a very paternalistic notion, but as a father, I can say from experience that the temptation is often strong to force someone weaker than you into doing something that you believe is for their own good. "You'll thank me later," you say as you strong-arm the person into doing what you want them to do.
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Last edited by qole; 2008-06-20 at 00:30.
 
YoDude's Avatar
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2008-06-20 , 00:53
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#55
The spec bubble will pop after the money changers have moved on. The Saudis can stop the spec by temorarily overproducing. The smart money will bail and the lemmings will then stampede to the next junk bond or financial manipulation.

Speaking of spec. How many know where their retirement fund managers have put your funds now that the dollar has tanked? I bet oil and commodities are a big chunk of these investments.
 
Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-06-20 , 01:31
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#56
Originally Posted by qole View Post
Well, I think you can easily believe that you can force democracy on a nation. It's a very paternalistic notion, but as a father, I can say from experience that the temptation is often strong to force someone weaker than you into doing something that you believe is for their own good. "You'll thank me later," you say as you strong-arm the person into doing what you want them to do.
You're correct, and what you just said is what I meant.
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sondjata is offline sondjata
2008-06-20 , 01:53
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#57
Originally Posted by IcelandDreams View Post
1. There's a fscking war going on that isn't going nearly as well as planned. At a cost of $250 million *per day* add it up and tell me how we're paying for that.
2. Hugely more consumption by India and China.
3. The U.S. dollar is worth a lot less than it was a short while ago.
Just note that according to OPEC, Supply has been met, there is clearly room for more supply AND consumption in the US has dropped, so the fact of consumption in India and China does not fully explain the rises.

Originally Posted by IcelandDreams View Post
I am not at all surprised that fuel costs what it does. We ain't seen nothing yet....

Why is this the top priority for voters during arguably the most important election in a very long time? I'm completely dumbfounded by this. Your boys are dieing in a sandy ******** for an unknown cause and we're concerned about fuel prices?
Well it's because your average American is well, stupid. They can see and taste fuel costs not abstract things like SIV's, Speculation and currency rates.

Originally Posted by IcelandDreams View Post
My solution:
. Get out of Iraq right now. Today. This should be the top priority during the America's Next Top President show.
I like that. Top President Show. No doubt.

Originally Posted by IcelandDreams View Post
. Shut the fsck up about oil prices and deal with it like the rest of the world has done for a long time. They dealt with it without a meltdown. Innovate like the old days.
Well the rest of the world, well Europe, knows exactly why prices are so high. Much of it is taxes. That excuse doesn't exist stateside. Most places outside of cities have sh*t public transport and massive sprawl. There are some places here in the states where if prices go up far enough people will be literally unable to go to work. In some cases you're talking about the entire economies of towns going up in smoke.

Anyways, I wont even discuss those rolling strikes happening in certain parts of Europe.

In other areas of the world, they are either not dependent on private transport, have cheap gas, or have so much poverty that gas prices are simply not on the radar. Not really fair to compare that.

Originally Posted by IcelandDreams View Post
. Stop looking to save pennies and do more manufacturing in the U.S. instead of everything from China. Get that dollar back up before it is on par with the peso or lira (no offense to other countries).
I agree 100%.
 
Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-06-20 , 02:13
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#58
Good post Sondjata.
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joepagiii is offline joepagiii
2008-06-20 , 02:30
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#59
Well it's because your average American is well, stupid. They can see and taste fuel costs not abstract things like SIV's, Speculation and currency rates.
to be fair most Americans are not stupid just distracted with crap that they really don't need....just want. half of my customers couldnt tell me the real difference between ram and hardrive but they could tell me who won American idol...sad real sad...im not the brightest bulb when it comes to really trying to see whats going on...but i do recognize a bread and circus when i see one
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IcelandDreams is offline IcelandDreams
2008-06-20 , 03:23
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#60
Originally Posted by sondjata View Post
Just note that according to OPEC, Supply has been met, there is clearly room for more supply AND consumption in the US has dropped, so the fact of consumption in India and China does not fully explain the rises.
I'll disagree with one point. Quoting OPEC and believing it is like, well, believing CNN. Or Bush Inc., or statistics, or car salesmen, or anyone with an agenda. None of these explain it all but together they go a long way. I believe that the worst thing that could possibly happen regarding gas prices is for the government to come in and somehow magically lower it so that the masses all start to feel better.

Distractions indeed. Bread and circus indeed.

No I don't mean the entire world is to be compared but in many top economies they have somehow managed to thrive for decades in spite of the prices. Every argument I've heard about the differences and why we can't make the changes doesn't hold up, we're simply asleep at the wheel. The current increases are a tough issue once again and most of Europe will adjust. They have a lot more room in the taxes to maneuver. Not to mention having put those high taxes to good use over the decades compared to the U.S.

It isn't that gas prices don't hurt my bottom line, it does and has already forced changes in my life; it's just that I don't much care anymore. There are much more serious issues that are affecting me, my kids, and their future than the cost of anything. What is in my food and not the cost worries me more. The thought of the Bush disaster continuing under any other name after November scares the hell out of me. And it isn't looking very hopeful already.

screw the gas, get your troops out of Iraq. Better yet stop buying any oil from the middle east. Not a drop. I'd pay $5/litre for world peace.
...and drive even less...
 
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