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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2008-11-23 , 12:59
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#21
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
It's just a beta and S60 is a very broadly licensed platform. I don't think it should be criticized because it isn't free and completely open.

And as to "walled garden" comment, Nokia is much more open than others in mobile community (at least in the US).

I'm not sure we're talking about the same issue here. In fact, there are several different issues with this Friend View thing, not all of them being under Nokia's control.

Issue #1: S60 isn't wide-spread enough
While S60 might be a well-established platform and attractive for developers, it's not popular enough to ensure a group of people who know each other in real life and would be willing to share their locations also own compatible phones. - It's the other way round: Although most people I know own Nokia phones (estimated 60%), not one of them has a S60/3rd Edition device.
While this sounds like a real bummer, in fact it's a minor issue. If Nokia really wants to push such a service, they could try to make it available for other devices after the research period.

Issue #2: Somebody should have done this before
Not Nokia's fault, of course. But it's so obvious that with a clever mixture of existing, well-established technologies (XMPP und RSS), this kind of service would have been possible before. There's no magic to it.
This is exactly the creative input missing from the community, BTW, that people sometimes talk about. And this is the reason why I started ranting about the project in an Internet Tablet forum: The N810 is the perfect device for this service. Friend View by <enter your most admired Maemo developer here> should have been on the N810 from day 1.
(Don't get me wrong here - I'm not really accusing developers here of missing this opportunity. I know it doesn't work that way. I just sometimes wonder why and how a group/community as a whole could become more creative in inventing new services instead of copying another media player feature from the big guys. The developer can't start to work without the brilliant idea, and the brilliant idea needn't necessarily be his own.)

Issue #3: They should have used documented technology
From my point of view, this is the main thing. I really don't care if they release a research project as proprietary software on one single platform only... That's not ideal, but it's not such a big deal, either.
The really interesting stuff goes on beyond the application. How data is exchanged, which data, which server, .... all this. The focus should have been on establishing a de facto standard on how to re-use existing, open technology for such a project. This way, it wouldn't matter much that their own client only runs on a few devices. People could toy with the idea and both improve and spread it.
So what I feel is "so 1980s" is the concept that (that's how I interpret it) Nokia thinks they could gain any commercial advantage by not using open standards and tying the service to both their devices and their servers.
A good service would allow me to switch client and service provider and still have the same basic functionality with the same contacts I had before. Like I can change my mail client and my mail server and still write mails to the same people I did before - because mail, in fact, is POP3/IMAP/SMTP, and not Outlook/mx3.isp.net.

Solution to #3
What should they do instead? Well, what do we have? We have XMPP to indicate presence (online/offline) and location (via XEP-0080). That's already half of what Friend View does. The other half is the micro-blogging thing that doesn't fit well into XMPP because of its non-realtime nature. Well, there are microblogging services. Microblogs can be processed as RSS, and RSS has standard ways of including latitude/longitude in machine readable form into feed items.
What we also have is gateways between XMPP and existing microblogging services. They are in productive use and even recommended by Nokia Beta Labs as an additional value for their Nokia Chat service.
So the full functionality of Friend View could be mimicked by a location-aware XMPP-client that posts to and processes RSS from a micro-blog. How exactly this is done and how you handle access control in this case would be the content of this research project. The result would be
  1. a location-aware microblogging service that works with any location-aware XMPP-client people want to write for any platform
  2. location aware, RSS-processing clients that work with any location-aware microblogging service
This would be the 21st century way to do it. And I don't even think Nokia would need to be afraid of the competition if they show them how to do it: They'd still have this advantage of making it work 'out of the box'. So they'd be the gravity center of the community, even if some (who am I according to some people here? Oh yes:) nerds choose to join in from their GPS-equipped laptops or (even worse) Internet Tablets.
 

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lcuk is offline lcuk
2008-11-23 , 15:11
Posts: 1,635 | Thanked: 1,816 times | Joined on Apr 2008 @ Manchester, England
#22
i can teleport with this software, and also time travel!!!

i posted from the future and managed to get from Manchester to London to New York (and back again) in a matter of seconds.

the interface is a bit quirky however and not as slick as jaiku.

having friends is one thing, but having friends listed together is another, the default map starts at localized resolution but having only a couple of worldwide contacts on there is a bit bare.

my world needs filling up.
quim, as you said it needs an easy way to import contacts.
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SD69 is offline SD69
2008-11-24 , 01:00
Posts: 1,513 | Thanked: 2,248 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ US
#23
B]Issue #1: S60 isn't wide-spread enough[/B]
While S60 might be a well-established platform and attractive for developers, it's not popular enough to ensure a group of people who know each other in real life and would be willing to share their locations also own compatible phones. - It's the other way round: Although most people I know own Nokia phones (estimated 60%), not one of them has a S60/3rd Edition device.
While this sounds like a real bummer, in fact it's a minor issue. If Nokia really wants to push such a service, they could try to make it available for other devices after the research period.
I don't currently have an S60 device either, but it is the most widespread mobile OS in developed countries (your friends notwithstanding). And a social network app optimally shouldn't be limited to any OS, but your comments fail to recognize that (at least in the US and Canada) there are no open standards in the cellular ecosystem. We couldn't even make SMS and MMS work for the longest time because the network operators refused to cooperate to provide interoperability. Most device manufacturers have capitulated (iphone, G1, BB Storm are all operator exclusive). The situation is EVEN WORSE for service providers. Even Apple with their iTunes decided they wouldn't try to buck the system. Nokia has at least pushed S60 independently of the network operators; and to a large extent that you are apparently ignorant of and certainly unappreciative of.

Issue #2: Somebody should have done this before
Not Nokia's fault, of course. But it's so obvious that with a clever mixture of existing, well-established technologies (XMPP und RSS), this kind of service would have been possible before. There's no magic to it.
This is exactly the creative input missing from the community, BTW, that people sometimes talk about. And this is the reason why I started ranting about the project in an Internet Tablet forum: The N810 is the perfect device for this service. Friend View by <enter your most admired Maemo developer here> should have been on the N810 from day 1.
One operator did already try a similar service, limited to their own customers and certain devices (much smaller than the world of S60), and for a hefty fee. N810 is not the perfect device for this since: 1) by your own admission, there aren't enough devices; 2) a S60 phone has the right performance match. Let me also point out that it is internally inconsistent and the epitome of hindsight to say "so obvious that with a clever mixture of existing, well-established technologies ..., this kind of service would have been possible before"


Issue #3: They should have used documented technology
From my point of view, this is the main thing. I really don't care if they release a research project as proprietary software on one single platform only... That's not ideal, but it's not such a big deal, either.
The really interesting stuff goes on beyond the application. How data is exchanged, which data, which server, .... all this. The focus should have been on establishing a de facto standard on how to re-use existing, open technology for such a project. This way, it wouldn't matter much that their own client only runs on a few devices. People could toy with the idea and both improve and spread it.
See my comments on #1 regarding the cellular ecosystem. A suggestion of someone other than a network operator establishing a "de facto standard" (broader than S60) isn't credible.

So what I feel is "so 1980s" is the concept that (that's how I interpret it) Nokia thinks they could gain any commercial advantage by not using open standards and tying the service to both their devices and their servers.
A good service would allow me to switch client and service provider and still have the same basic functionality with the same contacts I had before. Like I can change my mail client and my mail server and still write mails to the same people I did before - because mail, in fact, is POP3/IMAP/SMTP, and not Outlook/mx3.isp.net.
Nokia certainly would like to have an app work across service providers. But there are large practical constraints. The network operators in US largely control the client devices as well (except for S60).


Solution to #3
What should they do instead? Well, what do we have? We have XMPP to indicate presence (online/offline) and location (via XEP-0080). That's already half of what Friend View does. The other half is the micro-blogging thing that doesn't fit well into XMPP because of its non-realtime nature. Well, there are microblogging services. Microblogs can be processed as RSS, and RSS has standard ways of including latitude/longitude in machine readable form into feed items.
What we also have is gateways between XMPP and existing microblogging services. They are in productive use and even recommended by Nokia Beta Labs as an additional value for their Nokia Chat service.
So the full functionality of Friend View could be mimicked by a location-aware XMPP-client that posts to and processes RSS from a micro-blog. How exactly this is done and how you handle access control in this case would be the content of this research project.
If I'm not mistaken, the network operators don't share XMPP or XEP-0080. Now if you want tunnel that inside TCP/IP packets, the network operators in US control the client devices too (except S60).

This would be the 21st century way to do it. And I don't even think Nokia would need to be afraid of the competition if they show them how to do it: They'd still have this advantage of making it work 'out of the box'. So they'd be the gravity center of the community, even if some (who am I according to some people here? Oh yes nerds choose to join in from their GPS-equipped laptops or (even worse) Internet Tablets.
The network operators are the gravity center (some would say the black hole) of services innovation in the US.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-11-24 , 07:13
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#24
While I do agree with SD69's comments (sorry Benny) I still have to believe there is way to deploy friendview using technology friendlier to more devices... perhaps Flash?
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2008-11-24 , 08:47
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#25
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
And a social network app optimally shouldn't be limited to any OS, but your comments fail to recognize that (at least in the US and Canada) there are no open standards in the cellular ecosystem.
Please re-read my post. I'm not talking about the cellular ecosystem, I'm talking about a service for all kinds of mobile devices (laptops, cell phones, PDAs, tablets...) and even desktop PCs.

Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
Nokia has at least pushed S60 independently of the network operators; and to a large extent that you are apparently ignorant of and certainly unappreciative of.
Thank you, I'll try to reach your level of wisdom eventually.


Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
N810 is not the perfect device for this since: 1) by your own admission, there aren't enough devices; 2) a S60 phone has the right performance match.
How would the number of devices in use influence the usefulness of a service that's build on open standards? Would you say email isn't useful on the N810 because there are not enough devices?

I don't understand your remark about performance. (Language, not content.) Could you paraphrase it?


Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
See my comments on #1 regarding the cellular ecosystem. A suggestion of someone other than a network operator establishing a "de facto standard" (broader than S60) isn't credible.
Again, please re-read my post. I'm not talking about the cellular ecosystem. I'm not talking about a network operator and I'm not talking about a standard in terms of platforms (as S60). I'm suggesting a standard that describes how geotagged microblogging feeds are processed by clients. This is completely independent of any platform, ecosystem or operator.

Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the network operators don't share XMPP or XEP-0080.
If they wouldn't, I couldn't use Google Talk on my N800 (or Nokia Chat on my S60 phone...).

And even if some of them don't: It's just the same as if they would for some reason try to block SMTP. That doesn't mean the concept doesn't work. It only means you can't use it on this one network. (Friend View as it is today could be blocked by the network operator, too. So what?)

Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
The network operators are the gravity center (some would say the black hole) of services innovation in the US.
The US cell phone market is relatively irrelevant here:
You build a service that can work on everything as long as it processes bits and bytes and is connected to the internet. So as possible clients you have desktop PCs, laptops, PDAs, tablets, cell phones... worldwide. This is the 100%-basis we're talking about. Let's say (because it's a mobile service) 60% of the users will run it on cell phones. The US is roughly 10% of the worldwide cell phone market, IIRC. (Probably a bit more, but 10% makes it so easy.)
So even if all US operators would block this, 94% of the potential customers worldwide wouldn't even know, let alone be affected.
Not exactly a gravity center...
Last edited by benny1967; 2008-11-24 at 09:12.
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-01-29 , 09:20
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#26
So, finally, this is evolving in the right direction with (Telepathy-based) Empathy now:

http://blog.pierlux.com/2009/01/22/e...re-are-you/en/

It will be interesting to see how much of it Nokia uses in upcoming Maemo versions, as this software uses Geoclue and Nokia doesn't.
 
lardman is offline lardman
2009-01-29 , 09:52
Posts: 2,102 | Thanked: 1,309 times | Joined on Sep 2006
#27
using technology friendlier to more devices... perhaps Flash?
Is flash friendly to any device?!
 

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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-01-29 , 12:14
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#28
Originally Posted by lardman View Post
Is flash friendly to any device?!
... or user?
 
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