Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation - Page 18 - maemo.org

lma | # 171 | 2009-01-11, 12:21 | Report

Originally Posted by ragnar View Post

This d-pad thing is quite interesting to me. Probably the best touch mobile UI's right now in the market (or at least launched), the iPhone and the Palm Pre, neither has a d-pad in the device. ...

Best as in "usable" or "pretty"?

Originally Posted by

Why would you really need the d-pad?

Text editing, command line, item list scrolling/selection, moving focus across frames in modest, rss reader etc. If you are planning to remove the d-pad at least put arrow keys on the virtual and hardware keyboards.

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to lma For This Useful Post:
benny1967, luso, SD69, Texrat

qgil | # 172 | 2009-01-11, 12:31 | Report

Originally Posted by Texrat View Post

But for reasons I still cannot put together we have not yet managed to create a cohesive community of developers.

This topic is too interesting for this thread. Moved to

The cohesive community: from talking to doing

allnameswereout | # 173 | 2009-01-11, 13:05 | Report

Originally Posted by frank.wagner View Post

Prio. 1 - Skype inside

Skype is a proprietary lock-in, and overpriced. Get real SIP support instead. It allows you to pick your client instead, and its much cheaper than Skype.

If you insist, Skype works on J2ME.

When you say iPhone-like you really say you want the UI to work more intuitive. See for (fictional) examples http://tabletui.wordpress.com

Originally Posted by vvaz View Post

From marketing point of view look for KDE4 - it was delayed for *2* years if I remember initial projects correctly. Plus for one year more it is barely usable for regular user (although 4.2 is really, really good). In total: 3 years behind the schedule. But with good campaign, blogs, screencasts really showing what is happening behind the curtains they managed to keep interest - even hype beyond common sense. Technical advantage? Well, everything I see today in mobile world looks like some variation of Plasma...

Some (rather basic or useful) things you cannot do with KDE4 while they're possible with KDE3. Some people who are used to these things in KDE3 miss them in KDE4. Which one is better is a lot of plus and minus and weighting. This is pretty normal: every advantage has its other side. A knife has 2 sides; not 1.

The Following User Says Thank You to allnameswereout For This Useful Post:
benny1967

ragnar | # 174 | 2009-01-11, 14:03 | Report

Originally Posted by Naranek View Post

This is simple. Because of it's clear, fast & simple feedback, or in layman's terms - it clicks

The d-pad may not be sexy, but it's really fast to use because it's located conveniently under the thumb (N800). It's easy and quick tool for navigating in menus. It also works well together with the touch screen, for example I might open a menu with right thumb, and then browse and select items with the d-pad.

The usability is emphasized when using the tablet on the move like walking. It's a lot easier to navigate with the d-pad, because I don't need two hands and I don't need to look where I touch and I don't need to verify visually on the screen that the touch is interpreted correctly.

Even though palm's latest doesn't have a d-pad, their earlier PDA line and OS made the usage of d-pad an art. You could do pretty much anything with it. The fact that the latest competitors don't have it doesn't mean that it's become obsolete. It just means that the UI people don't know how to utilise it. D-pads might also be seen as too old and boring technology for a hype product - a bit like our old fashioned keyboards, but they aren't going anywhere.

The way I see this is that the challenge for Nokia is to make a d-pad that is useable, but still sleek looking to please the modern consumers aesthetics. (For example the Motorola Razr's d-pad failed terribly on the usability part.)

For goodness sakes - you have d-pads on all your mobile phones as the main navigation tool. Do I really need to point this out?!

But... I guess the problem might not be self-evident for somebody who has not done designs on this area, but what exactly would you control with the d-pad?

You're talking for instance about navigating in menus. That assumes that there is a focus element on screen. Look at the iPhone UI, for instance. There is no focus element there. For a proper touch UI, you shouldn't have a focus element.

A traditional UI style is to have focus elements and then means to move this focus element around; first click to move the focus to position on screen, second click to confirm. Another style is to have no focus on lists and menus: first click always selects whatever you click. But you can't really mix these styles together very well. The current S60 touch UI does this, and I'm not sure that people are very pleased with the results. (Blackberry Storm tries to do this half-child of pressing lightly focusing and pressing heavily activating, but that's slightly hackish.)

There are major implications to whether you have an UI that supports a focus element or then not. Take an example... for instance, of a file manager style application: content list on screen, toolbar on screen. If you have a focus, you can click on an element and then choose a command from the toolbar. If you have no focus, then you cannot do UI's like that, but must set the commands differently. Or take another example from the S60 UI designs. They have the Options menu for commands for the focused item. It's essentially the same as the toolbar: the first click cannot activate an item, because the user must be able to click once to select item, then press Options to get commands for the focused item. It makes good sense for HW keys, but not really for touch screens.

The more you try to stick on to hard key based navigation, the less you can optimize for touch UI's. It's really that simple, fortunately or unfortunately.

Last edited by ragnar; 2009-01-11 at 14:39.

The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to ragnar For This Useful Post:
ARJWright, dafrabbit, Jaffa, namtastic, Naranek, theflew

Lord Raiden | # 175 | 2009-01-11, 14:11 | Report

Originally Posted by qole View Post

What the heck is a CD doing sticking out of that tablet? You realize that even with dual layer blu-ray you're only talking about 50GB, and you've gotta power the laser and a motor, right?

Even the N810, with the elegant craves1 hack, now has up to 32GB of relatively inexpensive removable storage on it, without the hassle of motors or lasers or anything.

If we're going retro, why not have a VHS tape pop out instead?

Actually, if you look at the picture closer, the tablet is sitting ON TOP of the CD, as the cd is just there for a size reference. And if that's a size reference, that's going to be one seriously huge tablet. In fact, it's twice the size of the n8xx series in width, and nearly 3x in length. Which means it falls into the UMPC tablet arena, as the n8xx series is only 2.5" wide, and 5" long.

Oddly enough though, despite it's size, I'd still buy it.

Assuming of course it runs Linux obviously.

The Following User Says Thank You to Lord Raiden For This Useful Post:
qole

Bundyo | # 176 | 2009-01-11, 14:29 | Report

Originally Posted by ragnar View Post

But... I guess the problem might not be self-evident for somebody who has not done designs on this area, but what exactly would you control with the d-pad?

You're talking for instance about navigating in menus. That assumes that there is a focus element on screen. Look at the iPhone UI, for instance. There is no focus element there. For a proper touch UI, you shouldn't have a focus element.

A traditional UI style is to have focus elements and then means to move this focus element around; first click to move the focus to position on screen, second click to confirm. Another style is to have no focus on lists and menus: first click always selects whatever you click. But you can't really mix these styles together very well. The current S60 touch UI does this, and I'm not sure that people are very pleased with the results. (Blackberry Storm tries to do this half-child of pressing lightly focusing and pressing heavily activating, but that's slightly hackish.)

There are major implications to whether you have an UI that supports a focus element or then not. Take an example... for instance, of a file manager style application: content list on screen, toolbar on button. If you have a focus, you can click on an element and then choose a command from the toolbar. If you have no focus, then you cannot do UI's like that, but must set the commands differently. Or take another example from the S60 UI designs. They have the Options menu for commands for the focused item. It's essentially the same as the toolbar: the first click cannot activate an item, because the user must be able to click once to select item, then press Options to get commands for the focused item. It makes good sense for HW keys, but not really for touch screens.

The more you try to stick on to hard key based navigation, the less you can optimize for touch UI's. It's really that simple, fortunately or unfortunately.

Окаy, imagine a textarea or an input in the browser. Do you click every time with your finger in the place you want to write? Now imagine a game - are you sure you will enjoy a fast paced action if half of the visible screen is under your controlling fingers?

There are some things a touchscreen is not suited for.

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bundyo For This Useful Post:
benny1967, danramos, Texrat

ragnar | # 177 | 2009-01-11, 14:32 | Report

Originally Posted by Bundyo View Post

Окаy, imagine a textarea or an input in the browser. Do you click every time with your finger in the place you want to write? Now imagine a game - are you sure you will enjoy a fast paced action if half of the visible screen is under your controlling fingers?

For 1) no, other means can be done. iPhone does it one way (with their zoom loupe), but other means can be used, either on-sceren or off-screen, depending on if there are hardware keys or not.

2) Well, touch screens work well with games suitable for touch screens. Just like you wouldn't enjoy Civilization with only HW keys (well, some do!), you wouldn't probably enjoy Quake with only the touch screen.

lcuk | # 178 | 2009-01-11, 14:40 | Report

a touch screen and accelerometer (if device includes everything from rx-51) allows interaction in a different way to old mouse+keyboard indirect interfacing.

I'm not gonna be so worried if we have no dpad on the [***front of the] next device, the menu and desktop ui wont need it and im sure that the accelerometer can be made to control things like doom in a new and better way than ever before.

its just different, not worse.

***i expect a hardware keyboard though and this still needs dpad (ala n97)

Last edited by lcuk; 2009-01-11 at 14:49.

Naranek | # 179 | 2009-01-11, 16:10 | Report

Originally Posted by ragnar View Post

You're talking for instance about navigating in menus. That assumes that there is a focus element on screen. Look at the iPhone UI, for instance. There is no focus element there. For a proper touch UI, you shouldn't have a focus element.

Thanks for the clarification. When I wrote the previous message and thought about how to generalise where the d-pad shines, it came down to navigating in a grid like structure. If we take that away, then I guess the usefulness of a d-pad does indeed diminish.

Still, the hard keys are a great tool when using the device on the go, so I hope they're not abandoned altogether even if the d-pad has to go.

The Following User Says Thank You to Naranek For This Useful Post:
SD69

daperl | # 180 | 2009-01-11, 16:27 | Report

Originally Posted by ragnar View Post

This d-pad thing is quite interesting to me. Probably the best touch mobile UI's right now in the market (or at least launched), the iPhone and the Palm Pre, neither has a d-pad in the device. ... Why would you really need the d-pad?

I think you get the point from the other responses, but I'll pile on just because.

I read the screen and I tap the screen, I don't touch the screen. I occasionally use my left thumb nail and I occasionally use my right index nail. And if the microb menu and toolbar were better designed I probably wouldn't have to use any nail.

With the n800 in my left hand (right hand holding, say, a cup of coffee) I can control everything with my thumb and index finger without obscuring/smudging the screen. An iPhone, Palm Pre or [insert other sh*tty device here] takes 2 hands or the screen is thumb-obscured. Just plain dumb. Thus, made for sheep.

And an accelerometer for use in video games on this platform? I have an iron constitution but this would even give me motion sickness. While I'm Sitting Down! Currently, this is my favorite example of technology abuse. Can you imagine watching an F1 race with your 50" plasma tilting back and forth?

Voice recognition isn't an option either. I read in silence; my own included. That's why I own this ARM device. In fact, I might just be one rev C away from buying a Beagle Board so I can start replacing all my x86 computers. Silence, for me, is platinum.

Bring back the n800 control layout or design something better, but please don't make me touch the screen. Pretty please with sugar on top.

The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to daperl For This Useful Post:
benny1967, Bundyo, danramos, davadio, lma, Texrat