Here, here! /wave

Talk like this makes me wonder if we have reached the point where some sort of certification should be required for apps to even install on the tablets. Now, I'm not thinking anything overly restrictive--- just, say, proof that a project was maintained in Garage or it either can't be loaded at all or some sort of warning comes up...

Or maybe just a "This app was Garaged" sort of badge...

EDIT: formal discussion opened here to avoid sidetrack-- http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...859#post311859

No, I assure you, it's meant quite seriously. Guess what? We wouldn't have a NIT to even talk about if there weren't people that decided to pick up and learn how to program. I'm not saying everyone HAS to, but if you're going to come here to ***** about the state of open source apps - apps that people generally have written on their own FREE time - you should at least be willing to put up some of your own free time to help... or at least be constructive about the situation.

It's his first time with open source... fine, I can appreciate that. What I can't appreciate is the whole "it better be 100% up to my standards and if it's not, I want to force you to spend more of your free time to get it there" attitude.

For anyone to say that the "why don't you learn coding" response is an excuse seems to be forgetting what we're using here. These tablets are possible only because so many people around the world decided to give their time to learn and write the programs the tablets are based around... or who decided "you know what? I think I can do better".. or someone thought that and then hired someone else to do the job... no excuses needed.

Think about it.

Never mind the most visible parts of the system, such as microb, Tear, modest... I'm talking about stuff like dbus, sqlite, etc... You're complaining about software that was given freely to you. If you needed a car and someone gave it to you and asked nothing in return, are you going to run back and say "hey.. the radio doesn't work! Fix it!"

I know that when you're someone that comes from the Windows world, the Linux world seems like there's a lot of those "radio doesn't work" moments... and it's true, there are. The state of software on Linux is ever changing. Things are different here.

I know you (and I mean the OP here) just see it as "I paid for a tablet and all I got was some half-finished software". If there's anyone that you have a right to complain to or about with regards to the state of software on the tablets, it's Nokia. They sold you the tablet. They give you support. Yes, there are others that share the OPs frustrations.

It's fair to point at Nokia and say "I don't think you guys gave me enough support". It's not fair to turn around to those writing some of the programs you like/love and do it. I'm sure it helps their morale, especially when a lot of people working on Linux stuff (not just tablet stuff) are lone coders. And most of them, I assure you, aren't working for Nokia.

If open source was a failure, this tablet wouldn't have been possible. There are numerous times when an open source project was abandoned by a programmer and other people decided to pick up the slack... or even a non-programmer deciding to rally people behind it.

What I'm asking you to do is just simply show the people who have worked so hard on some of this 3rd party software - finished in your eyes or not - some respect.

They don't owe you (or me or anyone else on the planet) anything and they deserve all the thanks in the world for what they've done.

I seriously can't even begin to understand what post(s) you think you're reading. Your are clearly believing in a tiered (read: elitist) community where the developers are the prime community members and the 'users', at their feet, take what they can get or get shut up (by posts like yours) and told to 'go code it yourself'.

Funny thing is, I had always envisioned that a community was about sharing - and that part of that was to air ones concerns about the future of a device and community one finds valuable so that the community can assess if there's any validity to such ideas.

There is no 'disrespect' intended to any developer but rather simply one voice saying that as a user I love the things that are being accomplished but it scares me how there is no structure at all to how development is maintained (and how Nokia is seemingly ignoring software updates). It makes me as a, I thought at least up until now, community member concerned. Will it eventually cause the end of a device I really like? I don't know but I can tell you that it sure as heck should be dealt with by telling users to shut up and go code it themselves.

Oh and please don't create 'quotes like ""it better be 100% up to my standards and if it's not, I want to force you to spend more of your free time to get it there"" as that is neither a quote in text nor in gist.


What on earth does that have to do with anything in the post that stresses concerns about continuity?

You quite obviously have your own agenda and choose to continue to go down that road so even though I did have comments on the rest of your post I'll exercise some restraints and stop here as I sadly don't think you are able to comprehend the idea behind the post.

I am also a recent user, but I have previous FLOSS experience. I do understand your frustrations. They are not much different from the feelings of new users of free software in other situations, such as desktops.

These problem have been around for some time, and there is no easy solution. There are compromises making the different worlds better and worse for different tasks.

Great! You must have learned some offense like "your vodka is water" or "you suck at deer hunting!"

Not sure what you mean. What I'm saying is that when there is a product, and you pay for it, you are just paying for the right to use that specific product. The fact that you are helping the developer to release new versions is indirect, if present at all.

You seem to be wanting to hire people to develop tools that are missing in Maemo today. This is one thing. There is even someone putting up a bounty in another thread.

It is one thing to give money for developed products, as a gratification or as the price to earn the right to use that product, and give money for the development of something new. As I understand, you are saying you wish the software in Maemo were not free, because then you would be able to criticize the developers for not making updates. But this is not so.

I'm not saying I'm happy with Nokia. But the truth is we bought a half baked product hoping it would improve much in a near future. Turns out we were not so lucky. But it's just fair, because the price we paid was for the product "as is".

If putting everything in an app store would make a difference in continuing development, it is not because developers would feel some sort of obligation towards the users who already paid him to make the software they are using. Unless some program has a major bug, and actually doesn't work as advertised, if a paid programmer decides to stop development even tough he promised you some future enhancements, there is nothing we can do. You can only say that programmers could be stimulated by receiving more money selling updates, but I don't agree that programmers would keep enhancing an application based on a payment he already received.

Yes, absolutely.

Perfectly valid. Apparently everyone working on Maemo at Nokia got moved to Fremantle early, causing the lack of software updates for the official software.

It isn't simply saying "shut up and go code it yourself"... I'm saying that if there's something lacking and that you're passionate about it and want to have it, you're going to need to try to push to make it happen sometimes, instead of sitting on the sidelines.

You're concerned about the lack of updates for the tablets... so why don't you try to find a way to get involved in Mer, the community's answer for the lack of updates for the current tablets? Come and get yourself even more involved in making the device you love continue to live on.

I'm trying to do my part right now by pushing a new way to have localization and strings done and checked by the community. If you've got free time, pick something you'd like to see added/fixed or changed and do what you can to get involved.

You don't *have* to become a programmer to do that. There are other tasks that you can also help with, such as testing, localization, brainstorming, etc... Even just filing a bug or two for the features you'd like to see would help.

I know that this whole way of working and community is way outside the norm for the average consumer device. I know it probably hasn't given you the experience you wanted or expected when you bought it. We're sorry. We aren't all exactly happy with the state of the devices either and that's why we're trying to work on it. You have the chance to do the same.

@silvermountain

if you didn't see crazy-*** arguments ensuing after the creation of this thread, then i dunno....

(I read this thread when it had 1 post, and I saw them coming a mile (or kilometer ) away)

I (mostly) agree with you, tho...

One thing about opensource developments though, it's not user\customer driven.

And I wonder about long term alignments, especially from the more naive (read: idealistic) developers if\when this thing takes off and Nokia manages to monetize the platform further.

I disagree. Free/Open projects typically have bug trackers and mailing lists where the user/customer can submit bug reports and feature requests. Closed ones typically don't.

Hey silvetmountain, how much did you pay for your N810? I'm guessing about $200?

What other devices with roughly similar functionality are available in that price range?

If you feel that you can find a device with a similar range of software, with more polish and professionalism in the apps, then, seriously, buy it.

As for me, my experience is the opposite of yours. My tablet is like a Christmas present that I get to keep unwrapping, month after month, year after year.

The community developers keep surprising me with unexpected gifts; I keep finding new ways to use this astonishing little thing; and mostly the devs are helpful and friendly.

Zerojay has an excellent point. Ask not what the developers can do for you! Ask what you can do for the developers!

(typed on the screen of my N800 -- in 180 degree rotated left-handed mode in Tear <both community-developed projects>-- on my new, hand-built back deck )