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bergie is offline bergie
2010-02-19 , 08:57
Posts: 381 | Thanked: 847 times | Joined on Jan 2007 @ Helsinki
#51
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
- The General rank would be useful to e.g. define who can be eligible in Council elections, Hall of Fame, etc.

- Specific ranks would be useful for specific purposes. Developer devices for top app developers, fresh protos for top platform developers, pre-sales devices for review to top bloggers, documentation hackfest somewhere inviting top wiki editors....
Isn't that exactly what we have now?

I would say most of that seems quite reasonable. There is slight skewing of blog karma because you're getting a lot of it for posting announcements on maemo.org for new devices etc, but that could be easily fixed by removing the "official news releases" out of blog karma count.

Karma helps to figure out the most productive members of the community for various purposes, and to give an incentive for people to be more active. If it wasn't in place then the "top Maemo contributors" list used for stuff like sponsoring people to events would be based purely on gut feel. And that would reward people who are more vocal, not the ones more helpful.
 

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lma is offline lma
2010-02-19 , 09:18
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#52
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
But then, in maemo.org karma has got always some (strong?) relation with the expectation of getting a free / discounted / loan device. This is something that generate uncomfortable, distorted or even childish situations. You have seen it and I have seen it to the extreme.
Indeed, and IMHO it's very silly and counter-productive. We want people who contribute because they enjoy it / it scratches their itch / they feel it's worthwhile according to their own value systems etc, not because of a carrot they might get if they "score" > x.

If I love bug reporting I see the incentive and usefulness of having a senior rank in Bugzilla.
Even that is debatable. Rank on its own (as opposed to objective stats) is little more than a vanity exercise. In practical terms, all I had to do to get triaging rights was ping Andre, and as far as I know karma was not involved in the decision at all.

But... what is the point of mixing all these stats, in a single and quite arbitrary value? Please answer.
There isn't one IMHO, because fundamentally there is no valid way to assign values to each activity that make sense relative to each other, and there is no valid way to differentiate between signal and noise.

For example, your profile has 50 karma points for bugzilla comments and over four times as much for favourites. As absolute figures these have some usefulness (eg you can see at a glance that qgil has commented more than lma and favourited less than vdvsx), but once you aggregate them together and treat them as a single figure the result makes no sense.

What is the final purpose? Is it the distribution of devices as an incentive or is it something more. Please answer.
Things for which maemo.org karma has been used in the past:
  • Council nomination eligibility: I don't think it has made any difference there.
  • Council vote eligibility: This is more of a filter to prevent lots of last minute sockpuppet accounts, but the account age criteria are perfectly adequate for that. To be honest the main problem we have with elections is getting even the eligible people to vote.
  • As one of the sub-criteria for Summit sponsorship: At the end of the day applicants and talks were evaluated on their individual merits.
  • Nokia Developer Discount Program: in Meego context there is less need for such programs as we will be able to run Meego "natively" on commodity PC hardware we already own. At the same time, programs like this are likely to come from more companies, each with their own selection criteria (most likely individual projects/proposals).

So overall I don't think it has added any real value to the maemo.org community, and bringing it over to meego.com is just baggage.
 

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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2010-02-19 , 09:21
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#53
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
But... what is the point of mixing all these stats, in a single and quite arbitrary value? Please answer.

What is the message? That I am more contributor than you because I'm lucky that blogging is overrated compared to app downloads or git commits? Please answer.

What is the final purpose? Is it the distribution of devices as an incentive or is it something more. Please answer.
This was discussed and answered in this thread and other threads before (the last one not even a month ago IIRC). Is it really helpful to pretend not to have read any of that and start from square one again? It has a tiring effect and is a tactic I've only known from my business life so far.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
But then, in maemo.org karma has got always some (strong?) relation with the expectation of getting a free / discounted / loan device.
The opposite is true. There was only one device program that was based on Karma. Until then (end 2009), karma wasn't an issue and wasn't discussed much. So it has not always had a strong relation to free/discounted/loan devices. It never earned you free or loan devices. It only once it history earned you a discounted device.

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
This is relevant because when comparing different activities the rankings are more difficult to deny: you were the 5th blogger, the 17th top bug reporter, the 137th wiki editor....

There could be a simple way to combine those values and conclude your ranking. That common value would implicitly promote that contributors get involved in more than one task in order to get higher "community rank", since "only Talk", "only git", "only blog" ight get you to the top of one rank, but far off the "Top of the Pops". Decent performers in several areas would be better candidates to get on the general charts, which probably makes sense since they will have a nive overview on several areas of the project and not just a couple of corners.
Sounds very reasonable. I like the idea. (Actually, I already liked it a month ago when we discussed exactly the same topic.) I like it and it's what we already have, as Bergie pointed out. Can we move this over to meego.com now, please?
 

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qole is offline qole
2010-02-19 , 09:26
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#54
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
PS: Thanks buttons reward forum contributors. There is no thanks button in e.g. Bugzilla.
I can't count the number of times I've tried to hit a Thanks button in bugzilla, the mailing lists, etc... I wish there was a way to give karma or thumbs-up or something to helpful community members all over the site.
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qgil is offline qgil
2010-02-19 , 10:08
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#55
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
Is it really helpful to pretend not to have read any of that and start from square one again?
I'm following this thread, but honestly I didn't follow the last round of karma discussion. Being the reason that already then I was thinking that we just spend too much time discussing karma.
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bergie is offline bergie
2010-02-19 , 10:52
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#56
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
Being the reason that already then I was thinking that we just spend too much time discussing karma.
If we want to build a great community for MeeGo (as I think we do), we should plan these things properly and thoroughly. Such a potentially huge community will need lots of infrastructure to support it and bind it together. Forums, Karma, Brainstorm and Social News can be important parts of that.
 

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2010-02-19 , 11:12
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#57
Originally Posted by bergie View Post
If we want to build a great community for MeeGo (as I think we do), we should plan these things properly and thoroughly.
I think we should take a Milestone for having the definition for Community activities e.g. end of Feb. And implementation in 1 week

Then the MeeGo sources go online and the whole thing will get into motion.
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TA-t3 is offline TA-t3
2010-02-19 , 15:32
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#58
Originally Posted by penguinbait View Post
I personally like an idea I heard a while back. Everyone earns some amounts of Karma regularly, but they can only give them to others.[..]
This sounds a bit like the 'reputation' system which was used over at Brighthand for a while. You had some 'rep to give' and so on. The system didn't turn out to be troubleless though so it was abandoned in the end.
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qgil's Avatar
qgil is offline qgil
2010-02-22 , 15:39
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#59
Seeing another round of karma debate. Makes me think we can happily stiock to absolute values in MeeGol (bugs reported, forum posts, thanks received etc)

At least for me personally this is one of the lowest items in the priority list. If anybody is interested in pushing it higher please go for it.
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bergie is offline bergie
2010-02-22 , 15:41
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#60
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
At least for me personally this is one of the lowest items in the priority list. If anybody is interested in pushing it higher please go for it.
Probably best to discuss once we know the general direction of how the MeeGo community is going to be built. I'm quite happy with the maemo one, so from my PoV following as many of the examples from here as possible makes sense.
 

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