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woody14619 is offline woody14619
2010-04-29 , 22:16
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#71
Originally Posted by cBeam View Post
Concentrating on flash I would like to be able to come by without flash.
That's what plugins and the like are for, to help filter content. AdBlock drops most flash based adds from the N900, and NoScript allows flash items to be blocked or unblocked on a per-site basis. Enable it for sites you go to that you like flash on, disable it for those you don't.

As for H.264, yes there are more hardware bits being made to support it. But not all machines have it. Flash could easily be modified to support that hardware and provide a seamless software emulation mode for devices without it. (In fact, I'm pretty sure that's in the works for 10.1 or 10.2.) Using that and other tricks, Flash can be just as efficient while providing a rich development environment, not to mention a code-once use-anywhere base, which you will not get with HTML5. HTML5, like most of it's predecessors, has some open and undefined areas that will no doubt be different from browser to browser, meaning your code will still have to make adjustments based on the browser it's in, just like HTML and JavaScript do today.

At lot of this looks like rationalization for not wanting people to be able to run things on iCrap that's not generating Apple money. And before you say anything about "free" software, know that to get the SDK to write "free" games, you have to pay Apple a fee. So even on "free" games, Apple is making money from the developers.
 
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Benson is offline Benson
2010-04-30 , 00:37
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#72
You can have it both ways!
(or, how to lie without lying)

Originally Posted by Steve Jobs
Adobe has repeatedly said that Apple mobile devices cannot access "the full web" because 75% of video on the web is in Flash. What they don't say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264, and viewable on iPhones, iPods and iPads.
Originally Posted by Steve Jobs
Although Flash has recently added support for H.264, the video on almost all Flash websites currently requires an older generation decoder that is not implemented in mobile chips and must be run in software.
What he said is not necessarily contradictory -- maybe "almost all this video" is H.264, and "almost all Flash websites" are not, because most of the video is on a few large sites, and most of the sites have a tiny portion of video.


I love it!

On the other hand, of course, there's some very blatant lies -- perhaps most jarring being the notion that there's no flash on smartphones yet. But that's a plain whopper; it doesn't have the... artistry of the above quotes.
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gobuki is offline gobuki
2010-04-30 , 12:38
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#73
Adobes CEO Shantanu Narayen answered Steve Jobs letter with a flash video: http://online.wsj.com/video/adobe-an...8A5A04E49.html

A random funny quote from the interview: "Open systems always triumph."



I'm off to get some popcorn.
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Last edited by gobuki; 2010-04-30 at 12:43.
 

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ArnimS is offline ArnimS
2010-04-30 , 16:04
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#74
Originally Posted by rmerren View Post
If they had flash, they would have fast and glitzy locally running apps from any website they visited.
Don't make me insult you.



The rest was sensible....
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tzsm98 is offline tzsm98
2010-04-30 , 16:28
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#75
Originally Posted by rmerren View Post
While there are real criticisms of Flash in there (which I agree with) I have to chime in on the "he's full of poop" side of this divide. The iPhone could easily let users opt in to using flash, or even give them a nag screen that they have to approve with every flash app they try and run online (that would probably kill flash faster than anything).

But Apple isn't concerned about maintaining open standards any more than I am concerned with ensuring that there is a good cheesburger to be found in Oklahoma (I am from Texas, and we don't go there). He is concerned about controlling the user experience so that nobody does anything on the iPhone that isn't approved by Apple.

The big danger Apple faces is that users could get apps which are not approved by apple. If they had flash, they would have fast and glitzy locally running apps from any website they visited. Apple would no longer get to decide whether the app was acceptable or not and (more importantly) would not get their percentage of any purchase price for something used on the phone.

If you doubt this, then ask why you can't run python on the iPhone. Aside from the fact that you can't download a file and use it in any other app on the iPhone, someone could very easily write pygame based or (the horror) pyqt based apps for the iPhone. But apple says no interpreters. So nobody else is going to have a subscription based (or ad-supported) pygame system for the i-stuff.

Mr. Jobs does a great job of explaining why he doesn't like Flash. But he doesn't explain why he doesn't trust iPhone users to decide for themselves whether they want long battery life or access to farmville on any given day. (Today, by the way, I chose short battery life but full access to all my IM accounts because I am working offsite...that's what freedom lets me do.)

You have hit the nail on the head in referencing the monetary motivations of the Apple crowd. If they can get millions of people to buy their product without a technology that would cause a money leak then why should they include it? What would be the business case for that? They have their stockholders to think of on a quarterly basis. Showing an ever-growing revenue stream from a growing deployed device base helps to maintain that "golden aura" around Apple's stock. If the deployed device base begins to shrink rapidly no doubt there will be some re-thinking about what to include and what not to include in future devices.
 
bunanson is offline bunanson
2010-04-30 , 17:21
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#76
"Apple issued a new clause in its developer policy, which stipulated that iPhone apps must be coded with Apple-approved programming languages (not Flash)"

You got to be kidding!!! Apple commands you how to use their products and even commands developers how to do programming. Thank god, I am not a applefanboy

bun
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Last edited by bunanson; 2010-04-30 at 17:24.
 
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2010-04-30 , 19:22
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#77
Great rebuttal from an open source perspective:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...m_campaign=rss
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gerbick is offline gerbick
2010-05-01 , 07:54
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#78
Originally Posted by wmarone View Post
h.264 is open, but not free. And sadly, Theora is behind the times and itself is likely beset by unexplored patents. No one is really willing to find out, however, which is why it's largely unsupported (directly) by vendors.

Google buying On2 and porting VP8 is much more promising, assuming they do something with it and it catches on, but it likely still sits under the same spectre as Theora.
H.264 as "open" is now in dispute:

"May I remind you that H.264 is not an open standard? This video codec is covered by patents, and 'vendors and commercial users of products which make use of H.264/AVC are expected to pay patent licensing royalties for the patented technology'," Roy writes, "This is why Mozilla Firefox and Opera have not adopted this video codec for their HTML5 implementation, and decided to chose Theora as a sustainable and open alternative."
Jobs: Patent Pool Being Assembled to go Against Theora
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Bec is offline Bec
2010-05-01 , 18:02
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#79
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
There are a couple points of Jobs that I agree with:

- Keeping the web more open/neutral. I know html5 is not perfect, but at least it's a backed by more than one company... compare that with Adobe Flash.

btw, I think he's careful enough to differentiate about using proprietary standards as a shared resource on the web, vs proprietary tech in products (which Apple heavily implements).

- Hover mode sucks. It's a clunky relic from mouse based system. The only way to gracefully implements it on a stylus-based handheld is by active digitizer system where it can register click and point separately.
Say Ysss, you/your avatar really reminds me of a younger steve jobs

But seriously, remember how FireWire was superior to USB at the very beginning, but apple had a patent in it and exercised greed without hesitation? Soon after, FireWire failed and is rarely used now days.

I don't know how H264 licensing will exactly fit with the flash plugin/player, but I suspect there might be something at hand that pushes our dear Stevie to act like some hysterical schoolgirl.

HTML5 has a long way to go, it's in no way less resource demanding on my laptop than Flash (yes I've done a few test to relate to some online tests I read about) and not having flash in a mobile device is simply pathetic as long as HTML5 is not fully implemented and even then.

I can only hope Google/VP8.VP9/OGG Theora will prevail to shut the clowns mouth for good. His silly blabler will cause just a few years of fragmentation and in the end things will probably end as they ended with quicktime and windows mediaplayer(online embedded one) - DEAD END.
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Last edited by Bec; 2010-05-01 at 18:05.
 
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tso is offline tso
2010-05-01 , 18:24
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#80
Originally Posted by Bec View Post
But seriously, remember how FireWire was superior to USB at the very beginning, but apple had a patent in it and exercised greed without hesitation? Soon after, FireWire failed and is rarely used now days.
careful, apple have teamed up with intel (who failed in making usb3 a one year intel exclusive) in the creation of lightpeak.
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