wmarone | # 81 | 2010-12-24, 06:26 | Report

But what qualifies as a "real alternative"? I'd hardly believe a device running WP7 does, especially if they're still sticking around here.

Never said it was. All I said was I'd not care if MS wasn't going all Apple on people.

W7 is not WP7. Please don't conflate them.

Those require digging and learning. OSes like WP7 and iOS are designed to discourage you from digging and encourage consuming.

I've spent a long time using Windows, it's very much not like Linux.

I know, it only took them 15+ years to realize that people might not want a full GUI to do some simple tasks. Of course, I have far more philosophical problems with MS and the way they do business than anything technical.

I use Windows, and largely on the desktop it's a wash. But I won't use their mobile "solution." And I won't be pushing Linux out in favor of Windows, no matter if it can be administered over the CLI.

ndi | # 82 | 2010-12-24, 13:22 | Report

@mikecomputing:

I don't think it's grim. If it were, there would be only one, Highlander style. Just because you also offer an alternative doesn't mean the death of it all. How about this, Nokia designs and builds phones for Microsoft. How would that kill QT?

Something that can competitively push against iGo and the like. Fast routing, good UI, all the features you ever need, inluding input filtering for entering text on the move. I'm not saying it's all needed, but by now this solutuon is widespread, cheap and among the best.

I sort of see you point, but since WM7 is still very, very young I have little hint from the future. I close to look at same generation, same company work. I may be way off, Steve might run the Mobile division at MS for what I know.

Discourage != forbid. Can't say about iOS, but last I checked WM was quite "hackable". I see little wrong with discouraging meddling with internals, as long as it's still possible.

I'm not sure I can reply to this and maintain full objectivity. I'll keep my view.

That's cool, but I did little defending of thier business practice.

MoJo | # 83 | 2010-12-24, 19:51 | Report

WMP7 is a fresh OS and is tantalizing to say the least ... but Nokia and Microsoft are competitors in the OS space and for Nokia to even progress WMP7 to their detriment is not a good policy.

I can see it as a hedging of bets, with MeeGo coming (it's too late to shelve it) and the uncertainty surrounding its adoption ... the Nokia handlers might be scared and decide to release a WMP7 line alongside the MeeGo launch, after all Nokia is a hardware company first most and they can throw out the hardware quick enough. This although underscores the MeeGo launch and eventhough it would be meant to act as a backup success story ... MeeGo which is new, not advertised, and untested in the public would lose out to a WMP7 launch.

I think this is bad if were true, and I hope Nokia can stick out the storm ... they have a winner in MeeGo eventhough I'm peeved at the canning of Maemo for MeeGo. Also it would be too obvious, the North American from Microsoft moves Nokia's future towards the direction of Microsoft ... I'm sure the board would stop such a move.

What they can do is make the MeeGo phones compatible with WMP7 OS and allow people to buy the license and install the OS themselves ... that would be a new revenue stream. The company that makes this happen will see success and would be innovating the mobile world.

HellFlyer | # 84 | 2010-12-24, 20:00 | Report

Ars has an interesting article , read it and stop believing in bullsiht Eldar says

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/...not-likely.ars

gerbick | # 85 | 2010-12-24, 20:17 | Report

This will invariably get ignored since this too also comes from an American blogging site by this forum.

That seems to be the mantra behind most of the dissent in regards to how popular media, namely American media regards Nokia's brand in North America and Japan.

Too bad the problem isn't with the blogging - they're just reporting on how lacking advertising and information is here in North America.

Crashdamage | # 86 | 2010-12-24, 21:54 | Report

I posted in another thread long ago that with the M$ mole Elop at the wheel, it was likely he would drive Nokia into the WinPhone7 ditch. I still think it will happen. Nokia wants into the NA market badly and M$ is absolutely desperate for WP7 to make it big - very big.

To that end, both companies will bend a little. No doubt Nokia would be willing to cede some hardware control to M$ and the WP7 specs. More important, to get a partnership with the worldwide clout of Nokia, M$ will happily give WP7 to Nokia for free (though they may say otherwise publicly). In fact, M$ would likely pay Nokia billions to take WP7. That's Billions with a B. They have plenty and have shown several times they're willing to take huge losses to get into markets. And they're finally beginning to realize the future is mobile and the future success of the company could be decided by WP7. They know it's time to push their chips to the middle of the table.

So far so good for both sides. Nokia finally gets into NA, maybe boatloads of M$ dollars for the privilege. The stockholders dance. Elop is a hero. M$ gets a monster worldwide mobile partner. MonkeyBoy Ballmer dances, sweats profusely and chants 'Nokia! Nokia! Nokia!'

But where does that leave Meego and Qt? Ballmer will never let WP7 compete with a Linux offering, especially one marketed as the flagship OS over WP7. At this point Nokia has no significant skin in the MeeGo game. Nothing MeeGo on the market, no advertising dollars invested, no real public awareness it even exists. MeeGo would have to go.

But Nokia still needs Symbian and all its existing apps for low-mid market offerings. Both companies need all the apps and developers they can get to compete with Apple and Android. Qt is the way to connect the dots between Symbian and WP7 apps. So although they won't like it, M$ might allow Qt on WP7 under certain conditions and restrictions.

Now, of course I hope I'm all wrong. MeeGo's potential is enormous. Nokia's Linux/MeeGo/Qt plan is clearly the correct one long-term and down the road will result in both the best products and best financial results. But that's a ways out. I fear quick money will overrule solid long-term planning. It usually does.

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Last edited by Crashdamage; 2010-12-25 at 00:36. Reason: tidy up

NvyUs | # 87 | 2010-12-24, 22:03 | Report

Take in to account the writer is Pro linux and open source so no matter where he's from he is going to be against the Rumours

Rauha | # 88 | 2010-12-25, 18:59 | Report

Arstechnica is one of those quickly disappearing natural reserves - an actual techblog that does some thinking and analysis instead of just swimming with the current as fast as possible.

ericsson | # 89 | 2010-12-25, 21:23 | Report

I agree with Arstechnica except the last sentence. A Nokia phone similar to the N8 (same camera, same build quality, same radio bands, amoled screen etc) could be a hit all over the world with tremendous long term value. Ordinary folks in Europe used to Nokia would think, oh cool - nice OS. Ordinary folks in North America would think, oh nice - real quality HW with MS Logo. The down-side; there would be no going back for Nokia - ever (at least not in the foreseeable future), and they would be firmly in the hands of MS.

I don't think it will happen like that, although I do think something is going on between Nokia and MS. I think MS will take over the responsibility of Symbian, the core OS, and we will see a mix of MS and OVI blending together. Then we will see a "new" OS based on WM7, but with Qt. MS will eventually deliver both Symbian and WM7 core OS'es to Nokia, and Nokia will maintain the UX themselves, at least for some time. At the same time MS services will be tightly integrated into all Symbian devices. I think we will see lots of strange things before it eventually settles down on some preferred solutions both with Symbian and WM (but they will both be called WM by then). This is the only way MS can compete with MeeGo, and Nokia really doesn't care if they use Linux or WM, as long as they can put Qt on it, a Qt they have full control of. As a core OS for a smartphone though, WM is much better than Linux. The benefit for Nokia: they can focus on the core business of making phones (including UX) and developing online services. The benefit for MS: potentially world leading OS for phones and mobile devices, including online services with Nokia. - or something similar but i think we will find out sooner rather than later.

ericsson | # 90 | 2010-12-26, 11:08 | Report

My take on it, is that if there are something real about all the rumors, this got to be it.

Nokias problem right now is not poor sales or a Symbian that can't compete with Google. Even S60 v5 is competing with Android, and it is doing well in the market segment it is supposed to be competing in. Symbian^3 is doing extremely well on the N8. But developing and maintaining the core OS'es is draining on Nokia's recourses, recourses that would be put to much better use in Qt/UX and OVI in particular, but also in core low level software subsystems (RT OS and so on). On top of this, MeeGo is also draining recourses, not nearly as much as Symbian, but much more than the potential benefits would dictate.

MS has one huge headache. WM7 is sold on devices that are too expensive on HW that is second rate in terms of build quality. It really has no chance in NA against Google and Apple, and in the rest of the world it has to compete with Nokia as well. In fact, the only place it sell, at least some, is in the NA. Everywhere else people are simply thinking why? Why, when I can get Android or Nokia at a better price, or I could go all Apple. On top of this, MeeGo is lurking, an OS that potentially could blow MS out of the water all together (if all goes well).

The core businesses of Nokia and MS (in the mobile/phone segment) is very different, but they have one thing in common: online services. They both want that very badly, without it they will both be doomed. Nokia have their hands too full with Symbian and MeeGo, they are not able to execute their plans on any level, they have bit off way more than they can chew, and MS is getting nowhere.

Together they can solve each other's problems. MS can take over the responsibility of maintaining and developing Symbian, the core OS, and do a really good job at it. This will solve Nokias problem overnight, and they can put their best people back into core Nokia stuff. Nokia is not going to sacrifice Qt, but they are more than willing to sacrifice MeeGo if MS can deliver a core WM7 OS that Nokia can put their Qt on top of. So Nokia will also have solved their OS problem, and MS will have solved their potential MeeGo problem. Nokia would have to give some more, and that will be tightly integrated MS services in all Nokia phones, services that are compatible with native WM7 services. In fact they will both benefit from this, this is the common denominator that will lift both Nokia and WM7 into the future.

Nokia may, or may not make HW for MS to put native WM7 onto, but another option is a WM7 like UX made in Qt, not only for WM core, but also for Symbian core. Or simply a special "Qt-enabled" WM7 version for all Nokia phones. There are endless possibilities here, but a Nokia with native WM7 including WM7 UX and no Qt is probably not very likely.

For MS to keep maintaining two OS'es with pretty much equal performance and functionality, is not going to happen in the long run, so Symbian will eventually be left out (in the cold) to the open source community, and Nokia will be all WM core. This may happen very fast, depending on how flexible the new WM core is and how it adopts running on low spec HW.

LOL