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2010-01-30
, 19:31
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#22
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The Android OS is completely open source. You can take and build your own, functional, android OS to run on any device you damn well please. NITDroid is a perfect example of this.
However, you will not get certain closed source packages such as Maps, Market, Gmail, etc. Those are google's proprietary software that they sell as the "google experience" with certain manufacturers and their phones. If you actually pay attention the google's Cease and Desist they did not say cyanogen cannot provide ROM's to the public - he cannot provide roms with their proprietary software to the public (specifically: he released their shiny new market before they did and pissed them off). Now I personally disagree with google's take on this, especially with their "Do no Harm" motto, but they did have the right to do so.
You cannot take Maemo sources and build your own Maemo OS on any device you damn well please. There is closed source components to the basic Maemo functionality that prevent you from building from scratch and even getting to a usable desktop.
In this aspect: Android is more open than Maemo. With Android you can build and create your own, functional OS, from sources. Even Stskeeps, the creator of Mer, agrees with me that the core of the Maemo OS is not entirely OSS and it causes a LOT of headache for him in building Mer.
However: The only official devices with android on them are locked out and prevent root. Google spends a lot of time locking up and fixing bugs that caused people able to root their android devices to take control. On the other hand, Nokia doesn't give two shits if you grab the rootsh package from the Extras repository and do whatever the hell you want with your device.
In this aspect: Maemo has a more open environment than Android, as the oversearing company is more open to allowing people to have access to the device they purchased.
@DaveP1 - Android only allows you to gain root if you build your own.. there is no "root me" app in the official Google Market like there is in the (mostly) official Maemo Extras repository. So Both Android and Maemo aren't on the same field as far as "gaining root" and tinkering with it.
However, you will not get certain closed source packages such as Maps, Market, Gmail, etc. Those are google's proprietary software that they sell as the "google experience" with certain manufacturers and their phones. If you actually pay attention the google's Cease and Desist they did not say cyanogen cannot provide ROM's to the public - he cannot provide roms with their proprietary software to the public (specifically: he released their shiny new market before they did and pissed them off). Now I personally disagree with google's take on this, especially with their "Do no Harm" motto, but they did have the right to do so.
You cannot take Maemo sources and build your own Maemo OS on any device you damn well please. There is closed source components to the basic Maemo functionality that prevent you from building from scratch and even getting to a usable desktop.
In this aspect: Android is more open than Maemo. With Android you can build and create your own, functional OS, from sources. Even Stskeeps, the creator of Mer, agrees with me that the core of the Maemo OS is not entirely OSS and it causes a LOT of headache for him in building Mer.
However: The only official devices with android on them are locked out and prevent root. Google spends a lot of time locking up and fixing bugs that caused people able to root their android devices to take control. On the other hand, Nokia doesn't give two shits if you grab the rootsh package from the Extras repository and do whatever the hell you want with your device.
In this aspect: Maemo has a more open environment than Android, as the oversearing company is more open to allowing people to have access to the device they purchased.
@DaveP1 - Android only allows you to gain root if you build your own.. there is no "root me" app in the official Google Market like there is in the (mostly) official Maemo Extras repository. So Both Android and Maemo aren't on the same field as far as "gaining root" and tinkering with it.
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2010-01-31
, 05:35
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Posts: 310 |
Thanked: 383 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
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#23
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Can anyone explain exactly which parts of Maemo are not GPL (or point me to somewhere I can read about it)?
Are we talking things like the phone app and status bar, or base libraries?
Are we talking things like the phone app and status bar, or base libraries?
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2010-01-31
, 06:08
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Posts: 76 |
Thanked: 33 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Portland, Or
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#24
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I think the problem here is people who don't understand what "Android" is, Android is NOT GOOGLE Google simply owns the Trademark because they purchased Android, Inc. Android is fully developed by the Open Handset Alliance which Google happens to be a part of and dedicate developers too, all of Android as a whole is open source and available through AOSP(Android Open Source Project). The closed source parts are provided by Google themselves, and are not a part of Android, The Android Open Source Project, or developed by the OHA but Google themselves.
A direct quote from someone who actually works at Google "Android is the Open Handset Alliance's mobile software platform." -Jason Chen. There are plenty of companies who have coders that contribute to AOSP ranging from eBay to PacketVideo. But no one would claim that the eBay app is part of android and is open source, Neither are the Google Apps, that's just how Google makes money on Android, Licensing them out for distribution on Google Experience devices.
If you want a device with root, buy them as a Android Developer, The ADP1, ADP2, and Google Ion were all completely unlocked and pre rooted, just don't go buying a consumer device. The people locking them are Carriers w/ HTC doing it at their request because carriers don't want to deal with exchanges over bricked devices. Last I checked there aren't any carriers demanding the N900 be locked.
P.S. I'll be happy to get anyone a ADP1 or ADP2 through my developer account at cost + shipping =D
Last edited by ohwut; 2010-01-31 at 06:17.
A direct quote from someone who actually works at Google "Android is the Open Handset Alliance's mobile software platform." -Jason Chen. There are plenty of companies who have coders that contribute to AOSP ranging from eBay to PacketVideo. But no one would claim that the eBay app is part of android and is open source, Neither are the Google Apps, that's just how Google makes money on Android, Licensing them out for distribution on Google Experience devices.
However: The only official devices with android on them are locked out and prevent root. Google spends a lot of time locking up and fixing bugs that caused people able to root their android devices to take control. On the other hand, Nokia doesn't give two shits if you grab the rootsh package from the Extras repository and do whatever the hell you want with your device.
P.S. I'll be happy to get anyone a ADP1 or ADP2 through my developer account at cost + shipping =D
Last edited by ohwut; 2010-01-31 at 06:17.
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2010-01-31
, 06:21
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Posts: 1,245 |
Thanked: 421 times |
Joined on Dec 2005
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#25
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Not sure why I'm responding to this flame-bait, but I'm a sucker, always been, sooooo....
That does not mean that Android itself is not open source. It's very similar to the situation with many Linux distributions - in general, they are open source except for certain parts (like Nvidia's display drivers) that are not open source.
Actually, I find it hilarious that you bring up Cyanogen, since its existence is actually a great example of the openness of Android. You won't find anything like Cyanogen for Windows ME or iPhone OS, because it's simply not allowed by law. Cyanogen can exist because Android (the operating system - not Google's proprietary apps) is open source.
Another point of interest: you can install any app you like on an Android phone (pending copyright restrictions). Apple's devices do not allow that. So there's a huge difference between Apple and Google as far as their operating systems are concerned. Admittedly, Maemo is more open than either of them, but you cannot deny that Apple's mobile approach is far more closed than Google's.
Originally Posted by mrebanza
Every Android device can be "rooted" in a fairly trivial (and practically manufacturer-sanctioned) way. There are (realistically speaking) no measures in place to prevent you from rooting an Android device - they're just trying to make it harder for people to make themselves vulnerable to viruses or other attack vectors.
aaaaaant . . . WRONG!!!!!
FACT - Although the Android OS is based on Linux any and all Android devices that you can purchase on the mainstream market (aka HTC G1,MY TOUCH, DROID, NEXUS ONE ect) are locked by default and you the owner and user of the device are not given root access.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? - You know all the cool SUDO commands (you know those things you type into the terminal to fix problems and install cool hacks and apps that didn't make it into the Ubuntu App store yet?)
Yea those will not work on any Android/Linux OS device without major alterations (aka rooting or jail breaking the device)
Originally Posted by mrebanza
Technically, the reason that Fennec is not available on Android is because of the completely different architecture of Android. And technically, someone could write a (relatively) simple wrapper around Fennec that would allow it to run in Android. No one has considered it a worthwhile endeavor, however, perhaps a testiment to the worth of Android's built-in browser.
That is why Firefox's mobile web browser "Fennec" is not available for any Android device despite the fact that it is Linux compatible and can even run on any Ubuntu desktop.
Originally Posted by mrebanza
That's a gross over-simplification of the situation. Maemo is not "rooted" by default - you have to install a program that grants you sudo access. The process is actually relatively equivalent (in terms of difficulty) to the process for rooting Android.
When you buy a Nokia N900 your Maemo/Linux OS is rooted by default which means you can run and install virtually any APP you can get your hands on.
Originally Posted by mrebanza
Again, this is due to the architecture of Android, not the openness of Android. Someone could write a wrapper around Pidgin to run it on Android, but (in my experience) Android users generally prefer the built-in IM client.
Their is even Pidgin for Maemo OS (in case you didn't know Pidgin is an instant messaging client that allows you to manage multiple services at once - Everything from AIM to MSN - Grab it for FREE from the Ubuntu App store or at http://www.pidgin.im/)
Originally Posted by mrebanza
There are certain parts of Google's Android distribution that are not open source. Nokia actually does the exact same thing. Cyanogen violated the difference by including Google-proprietary software with its distributation.
FACT - Although Google claims that the Android OS is "Open Source" that did not stop Google's Lawyers from sending a "cease and desist" Letter to Android developer Cyanogen.
That does not mean that Android itself is not open source. It's very similar to the situation with many Linux distributions - in general, they are open source except for certain parts (like Nvidia's display drivers) that are not open source.
Originally Posted by mrebanza
It's important to note that 30,000 active users represents less than 1% of all Android users. So.... not a particularly massive group.
Cyanogen is one of the leading "INDEPENDENT" (aka not employed by Google and working solely to inprove the android OS for FREE) developers who contributes DISTROS (distributions of the OS or ROMS as they are call in the mobile world) of the Android OS custom built to make your Android Devices Work and Perform at it's BEST. Cyanogen Mod is easily the most popular custom Android rom with over 30,000 active users.
Actually, I find it hilarious that you bring up Cyanogen, since its existence is actually a great example of the openness of Android. You won't find anything like Cyanogen for Windows ME or iPhone OS, because it's simply not allowed by law. Cyanogen can exist because Android (the operating system - not Google's proprietary apps) is open source.
Another point of interest: you can install any app you like on an Android phone (pending copyright restrictions). Apple's devices do not allow that. So there's a huge difference between Apple and Google as far as their operating systems are concerned. Admittedly, Maemo is more open than either of them, but you cannot deny that Apple's mobile approach is far more closed than Google's.
Originally Posted by mrebanza
There's a clear difference between open source and proprietary software. I think everyone here knows that. Google understands that and has drawn a clear line between Android (the open-source operating system) and Google applications (proprietary software). That doesn't make Android (the operating system) any less open source than Linux, for which there is plenty of proprietary software.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? - While Google's Legal claims where over stock apps such as G-Mail and the Android App Download Center, this brings Google Inc's two-faced spirit of OPENNESS into the light of day. Simular to moves made my Apple with the iPhone - Google want to heavily control the applications you are able to run on your device. Worse than Apple they use the CLAIM of open source to get developers involved in fixing and finding bugs in the OS and creating FREE & OPEN SOURCE applications for the Android App Store, when in reality Google isn't for openness - They are against it!
Originally Posted by mrebanza
Yes, Maemo's core is open-source, just like Android's. But just as Google includes closed-source apps with its Android distributions, so does Nokia with its Maemo distributions.
On the other hand . . .
The Nokia N900's verison of the Maemo App Center is 100% OPEN and works a lot like it does in Ubuntu . . . . It comes loaded by default to update from the Official Nokia OVI.COM App Store but you can add an online sources for Apps and Updates that you want including Maemo.org and Maemo EXTRAS - After updating the software sources the app center is a mashup of all the available Apps from ALL SOURCES you choose!!!!
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2010-01-31
, 06:32
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#26
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Originally Posted by gnuite
Excuse me?? Short of the ADP's mentioned above which come with root... rooting almost *any* consumer android device is mostly a PITA. In the G1 you have to flash an older firmware first in order to exploit a kernel flaw, and here's your totally trivial way in which to root the Cliq.
N
Every Android device can be "rooted" in a fairly trivial (and practically manufacturer-sanctioned) way. There are (realistically speaking) no measures in place to prevent you from rooting an Android device - they're just trying to make it harder for people to make themselves vulnerable to viruses or other attack vectors.
Yeah ok...
Don't get me wrong.. I think Android is great.. but it's no where near the league of Nokia with regards to gaining root.
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2010-02-01
, 04:39
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Posts: 76 |
Thanked: 33 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Portland, Or
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#27
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Originally Posted by fatalsaint
Actually it's not at all, One Click Root still works on a majority of the HTC devices(MyTouch, G1), flashing the Droid is as simple as copying a update.zip to SD card and flashing. The Nexus One is as simple as putting it in bootloader mode and double clicking a .bat file. The Cliq is as simple as downloading 2 things, clicking a total of 3 buttons to re-flash, then entering one command in an ADB shell. Long gone are the days of goldcards and such.
Excuse me?? Short of the ADP's mentioned above which come with root... rooting almost *any* consumer android device is mostly a PITA. In the G1 you have to flash an older firmware first in order to exploit a kernel flaw, and here's your totally trivial way in which to root the Cliq.
Yeah ok...
Don't get me wrong.. I think Android is great.. but it's no where near the league of Nokia with regards to gaining root.
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2010-02-01
, 04:52
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#28
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First I'd like to thank you for proving my point so effectively.
Yes:
Download file,
rename file,
put file somewhere specific
reboot
press magic key combinations, in special order
wait
reboot
yayRoot!
Bat file?? I assume then this requires connecting to the computer .. right???
Yes.. 2 downloads, 3 buttons, plus a developer shell command...
And somehow all of these are supposed to compare to:
Open official Application Manager (HAM)
Install rootsh
Enjoy root!
No reboots, no flashing, no magic keypresses, and you're downloading from a trusted source - not some random website online who specializes in hacking devices for a living and hoping it's not malicious... and no connecting to a computer to do anything - unless you choose R&D Mode.
Sorry... I believe root should be available on the N900 by default, as all of this is "hacks" to get access to your device... but in terms of user-friendliness and easeness - no android or iphone device compares to Maemo. Maemo could, if they wanted, fix the problem that allows us to install rootsh so easily - but to this point, they've neither cared: and mostly made it public knowledge that you could do so. This is the huge difference between consumer Android, and consumer Maemo.
Originally Posted by ohwut
This only works on a particular firmware version. I forget the RC3x that it requires but it was patched... meaning that if you have one that is not that specific one this won't work, and you have to first flash *back* to that one using update.zip and then get this app.
Actually it's not at all, One Click Root still works on a majority of the HTC devices(MyTouch, G1),
flashing the Droid is as simple as copying a update.zip to SD card and flashing.
Download file,
rename file,
put file somewhere specific
reboot
press magic key combinations, in special order
wait
reboot
yayRoot!
The Nexus One is as simple as putting it in bootloader mode and double clicking a .bat file.
The Cliq is as simple as downloading 2 things, clicking a total of 3 buttons to re-flash, then entering one command in an ADB shell. Long gone are the days of goldcards and such.
And somehow all of these are supposed to compare to:
Open official Application Manager (HAM)
Install rootsh
Enjoy root!
No reboots, no flashing, no magic keypresses, and you're downloading from a trusted source - not some random website online who specializes in hacking devices for a living and hoping it's not malicious... and no connecting to a computer to do anything - unless you choose R&D Mode.
Sorry... I believe root should be available on the N900 by default, as all of this is "hacks" to get access to your device... but in terms of user-friendliness and easeness - no android or iphone device compares to Maemo. Maemo could, if they wanted, fix the problem that allows us to install rootsh so easily - but to this point, they've neither cared: and mostly made it public knowledge that you could do so. This is the huge difference between consumer Android, and consumer Maemo.
| The Following User Says Thank You to fatalsaint For This Useful Post: | ||
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2010-02-01
, 04:57
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Posts: 76 |
Thanked: 33 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Portland, Or
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#29
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Originally Posted by fatalsaint
I agree it's definitely not on the same level as Maemo, but it's hardly a PITA especially the PITA it used to be, all of the platforms are relatively easy to gain root access on, I guess I just personally don't consider connecting a device to a computer, and clicking one .exe to be entirely difficult(iPhone/Android) or copying one file to a SD card and flashing it(WM/Other Android). But yes compared to "sudo gainroot" it's definitely more effort.
First I'd like to thank you for proving my point so effectively.
This only works on a particular firmware version. I forget the RC3x that it requires but it was patched... meaning that if you have one that is not that specific one this won't work, and you have to first flash *back* to that one using update.zip and then get this app.
Yes:
Download file,
rename file,
put file somewhere specific
reboot
press magic key combinations, in special order
wait
reboot
yayRoot!
Bat file?? I assume then this requires connecting to the computer .. right???
Yes.. 2 downloads, 3 buttons, plus a developer shell command...
And somehow all of these are supposed to compare to:
Open official Application Manager (HAM)
Install rootsh
Enjoy root!
No reboots, no flashing, no magic keypresses, and you're downloading from a trusted source - not some random website online who specializes in hacking devices for a living and hoping it's not malicious... and no connecting to a computer to do anything - unless you choose R&D Mode.
Sorry... I believe root should be available on the N900 by default, as all of this is "hacks" to get access to your device... but in terms of user-friendliness and easeness - no android or iphone device compares to Maemo. Maemo could, if they wanted, fix the problem that allows us to install rootsh so easily - but to this point, they've neither cared: and mostly made it public knowledge that you could do so. This is the huge difference between consumer Android, and consumer Maemo.
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2010-02-01
, 04:59
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Posts: 27 |
Thanked: 2 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Sydney, Australia
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#30
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yeah sorry, post is very inaccurate.
In the end it doesn't matter for most users. Both Android and Maemo allow tinkerers to gain root (and if you brick your phone as a result, both have warranties that allow them to deny responsibility). For non-tinkerers, both provide a platform with a number of useful apps which can be installed and it comes down to which features and which apps are useful to you.
Now can we get on with life?