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2010-03-03
, 14:19
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Posts: 1,217 |
Thanked: 446 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Bedfordshire, UK
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#112
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Originally Posted by Bratag
Unfortunately I agree with you on this point. I have actually had to put a complete block on development for Maemo platform at present due to this and other issues. We were hoping to port some commercial software onto the platform and hoped to take it into the corporate sector. The software fits the need in the marketplace far better than similar offerings on the fruitphone and Android but it is just not worth investing the time and effort in a platform where we can't protect our investment and unfortunately where this view is become more prevalent.
So essentially what I am getting from the majority of replies in this thread is that as a developer - my time and skills are worth nothing. The education I went through, the effort I dedicated to learning the languages I code in, the time spent developing an idea and actually writing and debugging the code - not to mention the time spent supporting that code (in reply to the "Whaaaa it doesnt work" emails I get). All of that is worthless and I should be expected to code and support for free, because really people who obtain my software for free are not actually depriving me of anything physical.
Let me ask you this. If you managed to get a bunch of bricks for free - would you expect the bricklayer to put up your house for free, or are his skills and time worth money?
The attitude in this thread seriously makes me question writing any software for public consumption ever again.
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2010-03-03
, 14:23
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Posts: 3,617 |
Thanked: 2,412 times |
Joined on Nov 2009
@ Cambridge, UK
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#113
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Originally Posted by Bratag
That's certainly not what I'm saying anyway. The facts are that the marginal cost of the software is pretty much zero, and that copyright violation is not physically depriving you of anything though (except income, and how the potential and actual lost sales equate is a hotly debated topic) - that's the very reason that copyright legislation is actually in place. That doesn't mean that there is any moral or legal justification for violating copyright (or any other wishes of the author) in this way.
So essentially what I am getting from the majority of replies in this thread is that as a developer - my time and skills are worth nothing. The education I went through, the effort I dedicated to learning the languages I code in, the time spent developing an idea and actually writing and debugging the code - not to mention the time spent supporting that code (in reply to the "Whaaaa it doesnt work" emails I get). All of that is worthless and I should be expected to code and support for free, because really people who obtain my software for free are not actually depriving me of anything physical.
Originally Posted by Bratag
His time is obviously worth money, and that is easily quantifiable (hence the labour cost is often separated from the parts cost). His skills cannot easily be quantified though, and (similarly to software development), the cost has been invested already, so there's no marginal cost involved. Your example here equates to someone expecting you to write a program for free, rather than someone feeling they have the right to take a copy of a program you've already written. Again though, I'm not trying to claim that either of these are in any way justified.
Let me ask you this. If you managed to get a bunch of bricks for free - would you expect the bricklayer to put up your house for free, or are his skills and time worth money?
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2010-03-03
, 14:29
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Posts: 1,217 |
Thanked: 446 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Bedfordshire, UK
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#114
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Originally Posted by Rob1n
This all comes down to whether the software sold is a right to use the software (service orientated) or commodity. As the only physical item involved in the transaction is the media then this becomes an issue. If you go for the service orientated approach this equates to one person in a street paying for cable subsrciption and then hooking everyone else up for free. The price paid was for the use of a service in a single instance, multiple uses therefore breaks the original representation.
..
His time is obviously worth money, and that is easily quantifiable (hence the labour cost is often separated from the parts cost). His skills cannot easily be quantified though, and (similarly to software development), the cost has been invested already, so there's no marginal cost involved. Your example here equates to someone expecting you to write a program for free, rather than someone feeling they have the right to take a copy of a program you've already written. Again though, I'm not trying to claim that either of these are in any way justified.
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2010-03-03
, 14:30
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Posts: 16 |
Thanked: 1 time |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Paris, France
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#115
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Originally Posted by Fargus
Well actually in France both tying and denial of selling are illegals.
Well the point made earlier was that with an EULA or similar then the person in question should be aware of the intent too.
Why should it always be possible to buy without a brand? Why should someone have to provide you something they have worked on? Most countries have the right for a vendor to refuse sale and in your case I can see why!
But even without this, and after all I can very well understand that we should not force anyone to sell something if he doesn't want to.
Even if I can't buy a Rolls Royce without the branding (so that I can do everything I want to it), Roll Royce should not forbid any other firm to build copies of Roll Royce's car, as exact as they can, but without the branding.
For the same reason, I don't see why, after you bought a software, you could not copy it and give it or even sell it (but the buyer would be idiot) as long as you don't pretend you wrote it.
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2010-03-03
, 14:30
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Posts: 1,559 |
Thanked: 1,786 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Boston
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#116
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I have to agree that software development in this arena is a fairly null value proposition for the developer (by any external measure of "reward"). Between the attitude of entitlement fairly widespread amongst the affluent population (and make no mistake: almost anyone who has an N900 is affluent by global standards) and the (mis)interpretation of "free" in the libre software ecosystem we occupy here, it's no wonder that this thread is a depressing read for anyone who makes IP for a living (or even a hobby).
The borrowed metaphor that pretty much summarizes the attitude:
Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
Last edited by Flandry; 2010-03-03 at 14:37.
The borrowed metaphor that pretty much summarizes the attitude:
Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
__________________
Unofficial PR1.3/Meego 1.1 FAQ
Unofficial PR1.3/Meego 1.1 FAQ
***
Classic example of arbitrary Nokia decision making. Couldn't just fallback to the no brainer of tagging with lat/lon if network isn't accessible, could you Nokia?
Last edited by Flandry; 2010-03-03 at 14:37.
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2010-03-03
, 14:32
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#117
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Originally Posted by nidO
Actually, the analogy works pretty well if you add just one tiny presumption to the mix - that you have no idea how much money there is on your bank account. So you're withdrawing money still, but you don't know how much you have lost by others tapping in. The 'righteous' crowd will of course say they have not taken a single dollar/pound/dinar/etc (or that they would even put it back with interest after checking how the bills look like), but have rather used the card just for avoiding verification purposes on the Internet - thus claiming that even though they broke a few terms of use, you have not actually suffered financial damage. None of the potential scenarios is truly measurable so it's difficult to determine the actual damage - the only clear cut scenario is if you stay away (which many apparently can't bring themselves to).
This analogy seems rather broken - In itself, I couldn't give much of a toss whether someone had cloned my debit card, were it not for the fact that they cloned it to enable them steal my money (ie take it from me, meaning I no longer have the money theyve taken that I previously did have, ie theft).
__________________
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
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2010-03-03
, 14:38
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Posts: 16 |
Thanked: 1 time |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Paris, France
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#118
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Originally Posted by Bratag
This question has already been answered by myself and others on this thread. Let me say it again.
So essentially what I am getting from the majority of replies in this thread is that as a developer - my time and skills are worth nothing. The education I went through, the effort I dedicated to learning the languages I code in, the time spent developing an idea and actually writing and debugging the code - not to mention the time spent supporting that code (in reply to the "Whaaaa it doesnt work" emails I get). All of that is worthless and I should be expected to code and support for free, because really people who obtain my software for free are not actually depriving me of anything physical.
Let me ask you this. If you managed to get a bunch of bricks for free - would you expect the bricklayer to put up your house for free, or are his skills and time worth money?
The attitude in this thread seriously makes me question writing any software for public consumption ever again.
Your work and your skills are not worthless. Your ability to design and implement software can be hired by a firm. But you will sell your work, and the first instances of your work, not several instances of the same work.
As I said, to me software industry is a service industry, not a goods industry.
Your brick analogy is very relevant, and if the metaphor can be used in your case, I would say that as a software developer, you are a house builder, not a brick seller.
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2010-03-03
, 14:40
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Posts: 1,217 |
Thanked: 446 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Bedfordshire, UK
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#119
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Originally Posted by azorni
So maybe this is why the French market is avoided by some companies?
Well actually in France both tying and denial of selling are illegals.
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Originally Posted by azorni
Ah - common sense?
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But even without this, and after all I can very well understand that we should not force anyone to sell something if he doesn't want to.
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Originally Posted by azorni
So basically research and development are worth nothing? Way to remove innovation!
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Even if I can't buy a Rolls Royce without the branding (so that I can do everything I want to it), Roll Royce should not forbid any other firm to build copies of Roll Royce's car, as exact as they can, but without the branding.
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Originally Posted by azorni
So basically you think that developers of any item shoud do so for free? Who is going to provide the food they need during this time and the other services you obviously take for granted?
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For the same reason, I don't see why, after you bought a software, you could not copy it and give it or even sell it (but the buyer would be idiot) as long as you don't pretend you wrote it.
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2010-03-03
, 14:41
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#120
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Originally Posted by azorni
Because you agreed to something else (that's the license agreement and terms-of-use part many conveniently skip). It's like saying, yeah, I have an agreement with the bank that I'll return the money plus interest in a year, but they have so much money anyway, so I don't see what's the fuss if I return it in two years, it's not like I said I don't owe them...
For the same reason, I don't see why, after you bought a software, you could not copy it and give it or even sell it (but the buyer would be idiot) as long as you don't pretend you wrote it.
__________________
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
Let me ask you this. If you managed to get a bunch of bricks for free - would you expect the bricklayer to put up your house for free, or are his skills and time worth money?
The attitude in this thread seriously makes me question writing any software for public consumption ever again.
Class .. : Power Poster, Potential Coder
Humor .. : [*********] Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Patience : [***-------] Weapon(s): +2 Logic Mace
Agro ... : |*****-----] Relic(s) : G1, N900