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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (3)
to General by Kalatti - 21 hrs, 51 mins ago - more...
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2009-05-05
, 22:11
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#2
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This is a good thread.
One of the main problems right now is the preference of the different groups. Developers tend to like mailing-lists as they can respond via email. End-users on the other hand, prefer forums.
If you ask me, unless private, all discussions should be made in the forums.
One of the main problems right now is the preference of the different groups. Developers tend to like mailing-lists as they can respond via email. End-users on the other hand, prefer forums.
If you ask me, unless private, all discussions should be made in the forums.
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Reggie Suplido
Reggie Suplido
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2009-05-05
, 22:16
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Joined on Apr 2008
@ Manchester, England
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#3
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general word of mouth in irc is a very powerful mechanism for information.
I dont really care how many places there are as long as people speak up about them happening.
the more we talk, the closer we become.
#maemo has been a bit quiet of late.
I dont really care how many places there are as long as people speak up about them happening.
the more we talk, the closer we become.
#maemo has been a bit quiet of late.
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2009-05-05
, 22:36
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@ Vienna, Austria
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#4
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#1:
I doubt we'll have the perfect solution until we close down all channels but one. Kill IRC, stop the mailing lists, ... until we have one thread in one forum. If you don't like that (I don't), we'll have to live with the fact that people talk about issues in different places.
#2:
Thank you, penguinbait, for pointing out how many places there actually are. I keep going here, going there, and I just assumed everybody would eventually get to know everything - at least everything that's important. Now I'm no longer sure.
#3:
I think the community council is doing a pretty good job ATM pointing out whenever our input is really important and keeping us up to date with the big changes:
http://maemo.org/community/council/
It just gets lost in the noise on the news page and on the planet. If articles from this source would stay on top of the news at the front page (http://maemo.org/) for, say, a week or two, with an icon similar to what's used for the "get involved" link, would this solve the problem?
As an addition, the most recent news from this source should maybe replace the current wiki-headlines on http://maemo.org/community/.
One could also indicate on http://maemo.org/community/ that people who want this kind of community information should subscribe to the council's RSS feed. (And, of course, once these mechanisms are established, the council needs to take extra care not to miss a topic. But from what I see, they covered everything relevant so far.)
I doubt we'll have the perfect solution until we close down all channels but one. Kill IRC, stop the mailing lists, ... until we have one thread in one forum. If you don't like that (I don't), we'll have to live with the fact that people talk about issues in different places.
#2:
Thank you, penguinbait, for pointing out how many places there actually are. I keep going here, going there, and I just assumed everybody would eventually get to know everything - at least everything that's important. Now I'm no longer sure.
#3:
I think the community council is doing a pretty good job ATM pointing out whenever our input is really important and keeping us up to date with the big changes:
http://maemo.org/community/council/
It just gets lost in the noise on the news page and on the planet. If articles from this source would stay on top of the news at the front page (http://maemo.org/) for, say, a week or two, with an icon similar to what's used for the "get involved" link, would this solve the problem?
As an addition, the most recent news from this source should maybe replace the current wiki-headlines on http://maemo.org/community/.
One could also indicate on http://maemo.org/community/ that people who want this kind of community information should subscribe to the council's RSS feed. (And, of course, once these mechanisms are established, the council needs to take extra care not to miss a topic. But from what I see, they covered everything relevant so far.)
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2009-05-05
, 23:30
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@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#5
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@penguinbait, note that in the title you ask about "being informed" but then the poll is about requiring "community input". They overlap but are not the same. Being informed of everything is time consuming, but it should be more doable being aware of the topics where your input is formally requested.
I think the basic unit of discussion about community topics should be this maemo.org forum at talk.maemo.org.
The community council blog should be enough to highlight whethever interesting discussions in this maemo.org forum want more awareness, feedback or votes.
The maemo.org announcements should be enough to highlight the deepest topics requiring a community-wide decision. Optionally an email to everybody can be sent for crucial topics.
Doesn't sound that complicated to follow, if a community member wants to follow.
Then there are plenty more places where discussions happen and decisions are made, but I think the own place or topics defines the audience, and that is fine. For instance the maemo-developers list or bugs.maemo.org or #maemo.
The maemo-community list sounds like redundant now. Most of the people active there are active here. We clould consider closing it and we would have one redundant channel less.
I think the basic unit of discussion about community topics should be this maemo.org forum at talk.maemo.org.
The community council blog should be enough to highlight whethever interesting discussions in this maemo.org forum want more awareness, feedback or votes.
The maemo.org announcements should be enough to highlight the deepest topics requiring a community-wide decision. Optionally an email to everybody can be sent for crucial topics.
Doesn't sound that complicated to follow, if a community member wants to follow.
Then there are plenty more places where discussions happen and decisions are made, but I think the own place or topics defines the audience, and that is fine. For instance the maemo-developers list or bugs.maemo.org or #maemo.
The maemo-community list sounds like redundant now. Most of the people active there are active here. We clould consider closing it and we would have one redundant channel less.
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2009-05-05
, 23:49
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@ Ohio
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#6
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I voted that there should be a one stop shopping site for community information. Perhaps in the "Announcements" section of the forums. Looking there, the 2nd most recent thread had a last post date of Dec-14-08.
As much as some will hate to have any kind of discussion on the forums, I think it is the best place for it to reach the most people. Just checking there are over 22,000 people registered on the forums. Even if you figure only half are active, that's still a lot of people. Probably many more that on any mailing list or irc channel. Probably more than read any blogs or visit other pages.
I participate in other forums where the administrators can force you to view a particular thread before continuing into the forum. Could that be an option to highlight particular topics for the community?
Obviously, we aren't looking to be informed of everything going on. But *ANY* topics that can affect the community should be discussed in the forums *in detail*, not discussed elsewhere first, then brought to the forums once the groundwork has already been laid.
For instance, I would have loved to vote in the last council election, but it wasn't clear to me the multiple steps that needed to be taken to be eligible to vote. I believe that I would have had enough karma. I saw a thread on the upcoming elections, even found a maemo.org page with some nominations. I read that an email would be sent with further instructions for voting. I didn't read anywhere that I needed to 1) register with maemo.org (I thought "community" would include ITT), 2) create a link in my maemo.org profile to my ITT user profile web address (as opposed to my user name) 3) wait a day or two for my karma to be calculated.
I suppose I should have spent several hours googling on what I needed to do, and what the requirements were before I would be allowed to vote. Instead, I stupidly mis-read the information I did find, and assumed that voting for a "community" council would be easier and involve more of the community they purport to represent.
Of course a single thread detailing the required steps in the forum would have given far more people access to voting and likely resulted in far more than 160 votes. Just my 2 cents.
As much as some will hate to have any kind of discussion on the forums, I think it is the best place for it to reach the most people. Just checking there are over 22,000 people registered on the forums. Even if you figure only half are active, that's still a lot of people. Probably many more that on any mailing list or irc channel. Probably more than read any blogs or visit other pages.
I participate in other forums where the administrators can force you to view a particular thread before continuing into the forum. Could that be an option to highlight particular topics for the community?
Obviously, we aren't looking to be informed of everything going on. But *ANY* topics that can affect the community should be discussed in the forums *in detail*, not discussed elsewhere first, then brought to the forums once the groundwork has already been laid.
For instance, I would have loved to vote in the last council election, but it wasn't clear to me the multiple steps that needed to be taken to be eligible to vote. I believe that I would have had enough karma. I saw a thread on the upcoming elections, even found a maemo.org page with some nominations. I read that an email would be sent with further instructions for voting. I didn't read anywhere that I needed to 1) register with maemo.org (I thought "community" would include ITT), 2) create a link in my maemo.org profile to my ITT user profile web address (as opposed to my user name) 3) wait a day or two for my karma to be calculated.
I suppose I should have spent several hours googling on what I needed to do, and what the requirements were before I would be allowed to vote. Instead, I stupidly mis-read the information I did find, and assumed that voting for a "community" council would be easier and involve more of the community they purport to represent.
Of course a single thread detailing the required steps in the forum would have given far more people access to voting and likely resulted in far more than 160 votes. Just my 2 cents.
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2009-05-05
, 23:50
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@ Vancouver, BC, Canada
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#7
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Penguinbait: I agreed with you in March, already.
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2009-05-06
, 00:04
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@ Michigan, USA
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#8
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Originally Posted by qgil
I believe there is a communication problem. I have put forth my poll. When I tried to put in the poll question in the Title, it would not fit. Perhaps I should file a bug, but that is another topic.
@penguinbait, note that in the title you ask about "being informed" but then the poll is about requiring "community input". They overlap but are not the same. Being informed of everything is time consuming, but it should be more doable being aware of the topics where your input is formally requested.
I think the basic unit of discussion about community topics should be this maemo.org forum at talk.maemo.org.
The community council blog should be enough to highlight whethever interesting discussions in this maemo.org forum want more awareness, feedback or votes.
There is one post in the blogs about the beta site going live, it was posted on 4/16 and the final design was already decided upon by that time. I have seen nothing on the blogs about sub-forums being deleted??
The maemo.org announcements should be enough to highlight the deepest topics requiring a community-wide decision.
Also neither of these topics were discussed
Optionally an email to everybody can be sent for crucial topics.
I welcome this idea, just like I got an email to vote for council
Doesn't sound that complicated to follow, if a community member wants to follow.
Then there are plenty more places where discussions happen and decisions are made, but I think the own place or topics defines the audience, and that is fine. For instance the maemo-developers list or bugs.maemo.org or #maemo.
The maemo-community list sounds like redundant now. Most of the people active there are active here. We clould consider closing it and we would have one redundant channel less.
I think the poll question on the topic are fine, but thats really irrelevant.
I NEVER ASKED ANYONE TO CLOSE ANYTHING, NOR DO I SUPPORT THAT.
The community has lots of places to go and explore, fine. Topics are discussed in several places, fine. NOBODY wants to change that.
What I am requesting, it a single location to INFORM THE COMMUNITY when, community input is requested.
If its a topic that involves the whole community, then I want you to SAY, HEY COMMUNITY, COME GIVE US YOUR INPUT. LOUDLY
I am not saying to do this for ever topic, I am not saying everything that is done has to be put to a vote. However from my understanding, the new theme was voted upon? I am not sure I was not informed there was a vote? I hear there was a discussion and vote to remove the sub-forums under alternatives.
When people "complained" about the changes made ,they were told there were many discussions, why didn't they participate.
IT IS CLEAR, THAT IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ALL
So I am asking, I want my advocates "Maemo Community Council" to promote important issues up to the community for discussion in a consistent manner in a consistent location.
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To all my Maemo friends. I will no longer be monitoring any of my threads here on a regular basis. I am no longer supporting anything I did under maemo at maemo.org. If you need some help with something you can reach me at tablethacker.com or www.facebook.com/penguinbait. I have disabled my PM's here, and removed myself from Council email and Community mailing list. There has been some fun times, see you around.
To all my Maemo friends. I will no longer be monitoring any of my threads here on a regular basis. I am no longer supporting anything I did under maemo at maemo.org. If you need some help with something you can reach me at tablethacker.com or www.facebook.com/penguinbait. I have disabled my PM's here, and removed myself from Council email and Community mailing list. There has been some fun times, see you around.
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2009-05-06
, 00:25
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#9
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I've already voiced my concerns in one of the Theme-change threads. (I was addressing community council member timsamoff).
Originally Posted by BrentDC
Tim, the problem was that the new maemo.org style was never discussed here. I don't subscribe to any maemo.org mailing lists -- I don't really like mailing lists, I prefer forums.
I did not know that maemo.org was changing its style until relatively recently and after the theme was nearly complete.
I did know itT was moving to t.m.o and acquiring its theme, but thought it would acquire the old maemo.org theme (which I was more or less OK with) not a new one that I didn't even know about.
If, for example, back in August there was a thread started here titled "Input on a new maemo.org and talk theme required" I do not believe we would be having this discussion.
[...]
It is unfair to say the new maemo.org theme was openly discussed by the community, and everyone had a chance to give their opinions, when in fact I, and I'm sure many other itT readers knew of no such change. And were of course never given the opportunity to voice their opinions and concerns.
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Author of TouchSearch -- web searching software for Maemo 5.
Mobile Device lineage: Palm Z22 -> Palm TX -> Nokia N800 -> Nokia N900
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2009-05-06
, 00:39
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@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#10
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Originally Posted by penguinbait
There was a proposal made on 2009-03-10 that was discussed through a week and about 50 posts before Reggie executed the changes.
I hear there was a discussion and vote to remove the sub-forums under alternatives.
You might argue that was a short period of time. Fair enough. On the othr hand if you follow the posters and the thanks you see that most of the usual suspects had a say, so it looked like having reached a critical mass for a change.
No votes, but no huge discussion either. There were many opinions and the original proposal evolved to integrate them.
I notice this is the opposite approach you have: throw a poll first and discuss after. Well, in my experience discussion helps to reach consensus while polls tend to stress divisions and polarize the debate. This is why I think voting is a last resort for making community decisions, not the first one.
It's like in this poll. You say "I don't have an answer, I only post to you my problem as I see it." but in fact you do have an answer and quite clear. The poll is a means for you to know how much support you get for that answer: "I want my advocates "Maemo Community Council" to promote important issues up to the community for discussion in a consistent manner in a consistent location." (2h after opening the poll)
You could have started with the proposal you actually have in mind asking for feedback to contest it or improve it.
Last edited by qgil; 2009-05-06 at 00:45.
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I understand that when meeting are held and people make decisions, they cannot wait around to get peoples input that did not bother to even come to the discussion's. The problem is, there are people willing to put in input, but feel lost as to how to do it. We seem to end up late to the show, and you guys are like we started watching that movie 15 minutes ago, what do you mean you want to watch another movie? Sorry, that ship sailed....
There is 5 mailing groups
Council Blogs
Council Wiki
Maemo Community
News
Announcements
Garage News
Contribute
Talk.Maemo.org Forum
Did I miss any others?
I would like to request a single resource, that will be responsible for soliciting community input. If you want to know what we think, we want to tell you. The best way to do this is to have a single webpage or mailing list that will tell me when you want to know what I think.
Consistency in notifications
Consistency in response requests (polls, IRC townhall meetings, active thread discussions?)
I don't have an answer, I only post to you my problem as I see it.
I ask this poll question?
Should there be a single site/location that will let you know whenever a community input is requested?
I personally think this will go a long way into turning this into a real community, where everyone feels like their opinion counts.
To all my Maemo friends. I will no longer be monitoring any of my threads here on a regular basis. I am no longer supporting anything I did under maemo at maemo.org. If you need some help with something you can reach me at tablethacker.com or www.facebook.com/penguinbait. I have disabled my PM's here, and removed myself from Council email and Community mailing list. There has been some fun times, see you around.