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switch-hitter is offline switch-hitter
2013-08-21 , 21:49
Posts: 207 | Thanked: 552 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#11
Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
Rrreally? I was webdeveloper, and I got sick of the speed of HTML5 development and they way it was done. (not using XML by default is just inexcusable, for example) Also, HTML is general simply sucks or application-like development. It was meant for text, and for that it's fine. But doing easy layout, consistent GUI elements, easy GUI development and interacting with the rest of the platform, that is still a disaster. And no relief in sight.
Qooxdoo.

Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
And low-end devices running Firefox? Hm. Yeah I guess at some point in the future even low-end devices are capable enough, but that point isn't now.
FFOS will bring that time closer.


Originally Posted by mikecomputing
As soon as a server is down the app is non functional.
Sorry mike but that's complete and utter b0ll0ck5, web apps are cached and run perfectly fine offline.
 

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switch-hitter is offline switch-hitter
2013-08-21 , 21:55
Posts: 207 | Thanked: 552 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#12
Originally Posted by pichlo View Post
From the POV of someone who's had the misfortune of having done some development on Symbian, I do not mourn its demise at all. Like thalidomide, it may have its use but I wouldn't touch it.
There was plenty of options for developing for Symbian: Java, ActionScript, Python, BASIC and HTML/CSS/JS as well as C++.

If Elop hadn't had his evil way we'd have Qt/Qt Quick as well by now.
 

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Wikiwide is offline Wikiwide
2013-08-22 , 11:35
Posts: 1,994 | Thanked: 3,342 times | Joined on Jun 2010 @ N900: Battery low. N950: torx 4 re-used once and fine; SIM port torn apart
#13
Originally Posted by switch-hitter View Post
Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
Rrreally? I was web-developer, and I got sick of the speed of HTML5 development and the way it was done. (not using XML by default is just inexcusable, for example) Also, HTML is general simply sucks for application-like development. It was meant for text, and for that it's fine. But doing easy layout, consistent GUI elements, easy GUI development and interacting with the rest of the platform, that is still a disaster. And no relief in sight.
Qooxdoo.
In any environment, you can get tired of the way it is done. For example, I am annoyed that Qt applications attempting to use maemo's gtk theme have hard-coded paths to images, instead of somehow using GTK styles. But yes, HTML is not intended for consistent layouts. How can you get consistency across screens with different dots-per-inch, screen size, touch-or-not, multi-or-not?
Originally Posted by switch-hitter View Post
Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
And low-end devices running Firefox? Hm. Yeah I guess at some point in the future even low-end devices are capable enough, but that point isn't now.
FFOS will bring that time closer.
Hmm... Give me an operating system and applications written in low-level languages and optimized for hardware, and they will run stunningly quickly on these 'low-end' devices, and be capable of complex calculations. It's not what hardware you have; it's how you use it.
Originally Posted by switch-hitter View Post
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
As soon as a server is down the app is non functional.
Sorry mike but that's complete and utter b0ll0ck5, web apps are cached and run perfectly fine offline.
To be precise, they would be then not web applications, but HTML5 applications. They can be written, stored and run offline, on localhost. Though it's usually more mixed than that.
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
also the fact that HTTP is mostly done as a one way communication protocol makes it less good in many ways.
Agree. That's why ConnectionPeer API can be found in HTML specification.
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
Also it makes we wonder why on earth people needs triple core CPU:s smartphones if 'everything is about HTML5 this days' why do we need that when HTML5 will make apps dogslow cause the app constantly have to request data from the cloud?
HTML5 or not, cloud-oriented apps are unfortunately ubiquitous. Like, weather widget, or mail client.
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
No, seriously HTML5 may work in many ways but there are a lot places it will not work.
The same could be said about almost any past or future version of HTML.
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
That's why I say its over-hyped. But developers are lazy this days and don't want to learn more low/mid-level programing languages and thinks HTML5 is soooo good for everything.
People often strive to find an interface where they have to make the least number of movements (mouse clicks, keyboard presses) to achieve a goal. If HTML developers were forced to write HTML code in Notepad-or-Leafpad, without any color-assistance, they would soon howl and for the other programming languages. Especially if they were asked to write down formulas in MathML - they would quickly say that Tex is better.
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
Not even in university in Sweden they learn anything less than Android SDK and HTML5 but nothing about low-level embedded Start make me wonder why the hell people bother to ask why Europe going down when the answer is obvious....
I understand and agree that people should learn more about how the Earth turns around. Why the tides happen? Which trees do acorns grow on? What's the difference between snakes and lizards? How are crocodile and tuatara different from lizards? Are computers more effective when their logic is 2-based or 3-based, and why do modern computers use bits? Why does global warming happen? Why do humans explore space? For how long can data be preserved on CD, DVD, hard-drive, flash-memory (like, USB flash drive), photographic negatives, paper, papyrus? What wars are currently going on in modern world? Which operating system is the most secure? Who was Leonardo da Vinci?..
Best wishes.
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Last edited by Wikiwide; 2013-08-22 at 21:46. Reason: oats->acorns
 

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switch-hitter is offline switch-hitter
2013-08-22 , 14:00
Posts: 207 | Thanked: 552 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#14
Originally Posted by Wikiwide View Post
Hmm... Give me an operating system and applications written in low-level languages and optimized for hardware, and they will run stunningly quickly on these 'low-end' devices, and be capable of complex calculations. It's not what hardware you have; it's how you use it.
JavaScript is getting faster and so is cheap hardware.

There are three levels of execution with Firefox - rarely used functions are interpreted, functions used fairly frequently get a quick compile and hot code gets a further level of compilation after which it runs extremely fast.

Basic coding errors can dramatically slow your app down, for example changing type information gets your lovely fast compiled code kicked back down to the much slower interpreter, but I don't think we're far from the point well coded JavaScript on cheap hardware will give a perfectly acceptable experience.

Also remember the HTML5 canvas uses hardware acceleration where possible. Most of the grunt work of a game is in the rendering not the game logic, I don't think games are going to be the big problem for FFOS many imagine they'll be.

If I were going to make an app for FFOS I'd consider using the canvas and a library like KineticJS rather than the DOM so I could make the UI transitions and animations very slick.
 

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rcolistete is offline rcolistete
2013-08-22 , 16:25
Posts: 1,269 | Thanked: 3,961 times | Joined on May 2011 @ Brazil
#15
Originally Posted by switch-hitter View Post
There was plenty of options for developing for Symbian: Java, ActionScript, Python, BASIC and HTML/CSS/JS as well as C++.

If Elop hadn't had his evil way we'd have Qt/Qt Quick as well by now.
Qt 4.7.4/Qt Quick 1.1 was and is available for Symbian development :
http://developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Qt_SDK
Last version from 28/03/2012.
Some Maemo/MeeGo developers also release Symbian versions of their softwares.
__________________
Python, C/C++, Qt and CAS developer. For Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish :
Integral, Derivative, Limit - calculating mathematical integrals, derivatives and limits. SymPy - Computer Algebra System.
MatPlotLib - 2D & 3D plots in Python. IPython - Python interactive shell.
-- My blog about mobile & scientific computing ---
Sailfish : Sony Xperia X, Gemini, Jolla, Jolla C, Jolla Tablet, Nexus 4. Nokia N9, N900, N810.
 

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Fuzzillogic is offline Fuzzillogic
2013-08-22 , 18:55
Posts: 479 | Thanked: 1,284 times | Joined on Jan 2012 @ Enschede, The Netherlands
#16
Originally Posted by switch-hitter View Post
Qooxdoo.
Code:
var manager = new qx.ui.mobile.page.Manager();
var page = new qx.ui.mobile.page.NavigationPage();
page.setTitle("Hello World");
page.addListener("initialize", function() {
  var button = new qx.ui.mobile.form.Button();
  page.getContent().add(button);
  button.addListener("tap", function() {
    alert("Hello World");
  }, this);
},this);
manager.addDetail(page);
page.show();
This crap makes me cry. While QML is based on javascript, it is lightyears ahead on this webstuff when doing GUI-stuff. And then some.

FFOS will bring that time closer.
Because Firefox is such a lean and mean platform?.. I guess I've missed something.

Kudos though on asm.js, according to (their own) benchmarks is is astonishingly fast. Still, it requires JIT compiling and lacks, for the moment, deep platform integration, whereas Qt always runs predictable, native and there's always the option of talking to the OS directly.

Sorry mike but that's complete and utter b0ll0ck5, web apps are cached and run perfectly fine offline.
That certainly is true.


EDIT

Here's a QML version:

Code:
import QtQuick 1.1
import com.nokia.meego 1.0
PageStackWindow {
    initialPage: Page {
        Button {
            onClicked: dialog.open()
        }
    }

    QueryDialog {
        id: dialog
        message: "Hello World"
    }
}
That's it, including the boilerplate You can run this on an N9. It had autocompletion in the IDE, there's are no magic strings like "initialize" and "tap", no this-pointers, no "addListener". It's simply more modern and much better suited for the task.
Note however there's no "alert" function as in javascript, so the QueryDialog is there to mimic it. And of course that QueryDialog is much more versatile than js's alert.
Last edited by Fuzzillogic; 2013-08-22 at 19:25.
 

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switch-hitter is offline switch-hitter
2013-08-22 , 19:44
Posts: 207 | Thanked: 552 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#17
Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
Code:
page.addListener("initialize", function() {
  var button = new qx.ui.mobile.form.Button();
  page.getContent().add(button);
  button.addListener("tap", function() {
    alert("Hello World");
  }, this);
},this);
This crap makes me cry.
Read it and weep, baby


Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
Because Firefox is such a lean and mean platform?.. I guess I've missed something.
Because it increases the incentive for more performant JavaScript - Baseline, ASM.JS, Emscripten... there's a lot going on here and success for FFOS and/or Tizen should serve to keep that momentum going. Like it or loath it JavaScript is everywhere now.


Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
Qt always runs predictable, native and there's always the option of talking to the OS directly.
I'm not knocking Qt or native apps but I think JavaScript is going to prove a lot more capable than many advocates of native apps would like to believe.

I've started to really like Go, I hope Google are quietly beavering away to make it target Android.
 

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switch-hitter is offline switch-hitter
2013-08-22 , 19:52
Posts: 207 | Thanked: 552 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#18
Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
there's are no magic strings like "initialize" and "tap", no this-pointers, no "addListener". It's simply more modern and much better suited for the task.
The this pointer is optional, by default this will be the object being listened to.
 

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Fuzzillogic is offline Fuzzillogic
2013-08-22 , 20:28
Posts: 479 | Thanked: 1,284 times | Joined on Jan 2012 @ Enschede, The Netherlands
#19
Originally Posted by switch-hitter View Post
The this pointer is optional, by default this will be the object being listened to.
Oh yes, that indeed makes a dramatic and total improvement. I'm totally convinced

Btw, there's this: http://akreuzkamp.de/2013/07/10/weba...ality-anymore/ Running QML in webbrowsers.
 

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switch-hitter is offline switch-hitter
2013-08-22 , 22:20
Posts: 207 | Thanked: 552 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#20
Originally Posted by Fuzzillogic View Post
Oh yes, that indeed makes a dramatic and total improvement. I'm totally convinced
Repeat after me: "Qooxdoo is cool. Qooxdoo is cool"

To me Qooxdoo feels much more like desktop programming than web programming, I really don't enjoy HTML/CSS.

Is this:
Code:
var win = new qx.ui.window.Window("First Window");
win.setWidth(300);
win.setHeight(200);

this.getRoot().add(win, {left:20, top:20});
win.open();
really that dissimilar to this:
Code:
#include <QtGui>  
     
int main(int argc, char *argv[]) {
    QApplication app(argc, argv);
    QWidget win;
    win.setWindowTitle("First Window");
    win.resize(300, 200);
    win.show();
    return app.exec();
}

With Qooxdoo you even get HBox, VBox and Grid sizers for laying out your widgets and there's a great selection of widgets too. I also like the fact you end up with a one page web app that communicates very easily with an RPC server.
 

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