I´m sorry I would not bee too optimistic about this :| Don't you see any problems with extras enabled out of box on device that is quite a far away from n900 the "developers" device. It was marketed only in couple of countries and lately we have seen that it should not have been marketed as it was :|

@thp your first sentence IMO differers you probably quite far away from upcoming meego devices main market where they harvest money so think about that when trying to see whole picture.

I also think that extras is positive thing and it really distinguishes maemo platform from rest, but still Nokia has to think about end user experience and "what if..." and worst case scenario and minimize the risk.

This is quite multilateral thing and should be approached on many angles and think all the positive and negative sides of them.

I don't see the issue really. As has been stated; there is no testing or devel at all for the Android Marketplace. A developer simply uploads an app to the market, people download it, and leave feedback.

Google has virtually no input or care for what quality of apps go into their marketplace.

When I look at even the Ovi Store I don't immediately think "This app sucks, whats wrong with Nokia?!" ... Um.. no. The developers made the apps; not Nokia. The people supporting the apps are not Nokia, they are the developers. You leave feedback for the app, not for Nokia. It's entirely up to the developers whether to fix them or not.

The one thing I see is that a truly malicious app can be removed if necessary by either Google or Nokia for their respective official channels. But considering chromium was just removed upon being asked I don't see a problem there either. Worst case is allowing Nokia to remove apps if necesary. But this is a very extreme measure; the only app I ever heard of Google actually removing was the tether app, and that was only because T-Mobile was the only carrier of their phones at the time and they complained. I believe they are back now (tethering apps) because Google doesn't have to bend to the whims of a single carriers ToS anymore.

I look at Nokia, and I see a far more stringent control on getting apps into the market on both the Extras/Community side, and on the Ovi Store - than either Google or Apple for their apps. Now, Apple makes you pay, and they take a cut, so they're kinda out there in left field. But the Android Market, AFAIK, is a simple sign up for a dev account, and start uploading. The Android market operates much like our Extras-Devel does.. no need for votes of any kind to get it anywhere.

So this whole argument about QA or control over apps from Nokia makes no sense to me... they are the only company (if they are) that cares about such a thing regarding their app store.

Guess that's not entirely true, Apple will remove an app if it doesn't (or does) fit a certain category: Such as Jailbreaking, or Porn. But as far as the actual quality of the app, they don't care as long as they get their cut of the profits. Look at all the fart apps out there.. ridiculous.

And google... well... like I said: I'm unaware of google getting involved with apps at all in the Marketplace except for that one. Which leads me to believe it has to be really bad before Google gets involved.

So.. I guess it really comes down to: Does Nokia want to be another Apple; or Google? Personally, I prefer the manage style of the latter to the former.

That was my opinion as a developer. In times where "app count" is important for a mobile platform to take off, these platforms are also marketed to developers (in addition to the "main market"), because those are the ones who create the apps. I've seen Maemo as a platform where developers are given the choice to use the best tool they can find to solve a problem, and I hope they will continue to provide that choice. It's a pleasure to write apps for Maemo 5 and see non-geek users obtain and use them from Extras.

The Extras repository is important for bringing these applications to the end user. And the apps I *write* are totally targeted at the "main market" you are speaking of (even though I may or may not be part of that market *myself* - that doesn't matter in this case).

oh dear. I was trying to say that maemo as platform differs quite much from android and iOS because it´s open. I have understood that even in android apps are run in sanboxed environment. This means that that they can control leaks and malicious behaviour on some extent as in maemo you can do pretty much anything and single widget or odd behaving daemon can take system down slowly.

Please someone correct me if i have understood something completely wrong.

It is true that there is no sandboxing in the sense of Android or iOS, however sandboxing does NOT give you any implicit leak of performance guarantees, unless we’re talking about complete virtualization (and we aren’t if we’re talking about Android and iOS). There is no way for the OS to tell whether CPU/memory usage is a leak or rightful use, regardless if you’re inside a sandbox or not. It *can* be easier to manage, but sandboxing is NOT a performance oriented measure, especially as most sandboxing methods incur a certain level of overhead. Security is of course a different story.

I am talking from a managerial point of view. From an OS point of view, Android and iOS are more controlled on their apps, sure - but that isn't to say malicious apps still can't be developed for them and distributed.

I am not arguing our OS is or isn't more open than the competition, but from a company perspective on QA and management I don't think there should be much of a difference.

If there is no Extras enabled by default, then I don't think Extras will have any more authority than other repos as "the community's own repo". It is the implicit approval of Nokia that is granted by enabling Extras that gives it all of its authority.

I guarantee that if Extras is not enabled by default, the third party repositories will again spring up like weeds. I think there will be lots of third-party repos simply because the platform will be so huge and mainstream, but without a default-enabled Extras, there will be more weeds than grass in the Harmattan lawn.

EDIT: You think we've got QA problems now? If you don't enable Extras, it will be a nightmare out there.

Think also that if MeeGo-Harmattan really goes mainstream is probably because operators bring it to the masses. Nokia will produce a vanilla version of the OS, but operators will have a decision about the repositories enabled or installable in the devices they sell to their customers.

About proliferation of repositories, the Security Framework is a guardian that didn't exist before. Installing a non-recognized repositories will be possible only in the open device mode. As said, Extras is *the* recognized community repo according to the current plans.

So any application that makes it into Extras will have to respect DRM? I suspect that will constrain the number of truly interesting programs that are allowed in... perhaps I should request an "open" category (similar to "free non-free".)

I don't think that's what he meant.. or at least hope not.

I would image he simply means we cannot add third party repositories ourselves in the "closed" mode operation of the device. Where someone said above that people will make their own repositories instead of using extras if it's not the official repo.

So, essentially if Extras is enabled by default then users will be able to use it in closed mode (regardless of DRM, I would hope...) .. whereas if it is not - then users would be unable to add it.