View Full Version : Jolla phones: not so open
GameboyRMH
2012-07-18, 17:26
Well here's the bad news we've all been dreading about the Jolla phones:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/364288/20120718/jolla-mobile-launch-app-store-angry-birds.htm
"It is true that we have not heard too much from Open Moko for quite some time. But one has to remember that Jolla's main goal is not to create an open source phone. We aim to create a competitive smartphone almost everybody would want for themselves," Hurmola said.
"The phone will be a smartphone for mass market. It will not be a tech phone intended for Linux hackers. Consumers are not able to hack the kernel or flash new software for the device."
:(
First of all, sure, boring. secondly , we dont need a new thread for this, but now that we have we can use it. Not so strange. Tizen and jolla can't be more open than other OS like maemo or meego. Why? I don't even care to anwser this again.
let's be honest here, shall we?
Maemo (MeeGo blabla...) never was profitable
N9 may have scratched it if it had been marketed aggressively enough, indeed, certainly with Nitdroid, but... how would that have looked, claiming they don't want to become another "Android OEM" maker and having (one of) their most successful device of the moment... mostly be used under Android :eek:
without Flop / Fart's burning hara-kiri NOKIA would have been able to go on supporting Maemo
the only reason Android is so successful is because it is so open.
the only reason i can be so open is because Google can afford to give it away.
again see opening remark, no way a startup will be able to sustain that business model.
period
end of discussion :confused:
end of dream... :(
open source is not a viable business model
never has been, never will be.
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why the N9 is a whitefly with one blue eye and one green ...a rarity
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http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8959/moscabrancaa.jpg
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why the N9 is a whitefly with one blue eye and one green ...a rarity
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http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8959/moscabrancaa.jpg
did they make a green one after all ?!? :rolleyes:
thus, a 2nd red / magenta eye :p
let's be honest here, shall we?
Maemo (MeeGo blabla...) never was profitable
N9 may have scratched it if it had been marketed aggressively enough, indeed, certainly with Nitdroid, but... how would that have looked, claiming they don't want to become another "Android OEM" maker and having (one of) their most successful device of the moment... mostly be used under Android :eek:
without Flop / Fart's burning hara-kiri NOKIA would have been able to go on supporting Maemo
the only reason Android is so successful is because it is so open.
the only reason i can be so open is because Google can afford to give it away.
again see opening remark, no way a startup will be able to sustain that business model.
period
end of discussion :confused:
end of dream... :(
open source is not a viable business model
never has been, never will be.
I agree with the open source not being viable business model.
Though there was comment from Jolla that more than 200 000 phones would keep them alive, i don't see that impossible if the product will be actually good
What gives me some hope about Jolla is that these people at least seem to understand the market and know what it needs to get phone out to the market.
Proof of that would be if they truly could release device before years end, something that would be quite mind boggling for company like this.
If they can nurse the economy, community and can actually give us something amazing they might have niche covered. There's some truth on what the CEO said that the hardware is easy these days as most of the manufacturers just go shopping for the chips.
Jolla wont of course ever have things like PureView or custom chips like Samsung.
The orginal Jolla thread has already degenarated into 100 or pages about the same matter. Lively discussion about semantics of few words in interviews, both fanboism and hatred before any product and the whole nine yards of convoluted interwebs miscommunication.
No need for a new thread.
I agree with the open source not being viable business model.
Though there was comment from Jolla that more than 200 000 phones would keep them alive, i don't see that impossible if the product will be actually good
What gives me some hope about Jolla is that these people at least seem to understand the market and know what it needs to get phone out to the market.
Proof of that would be if they truly could release device before years end, something that would be quite mind boggling for company like this.
If they can nurse the economy, community and can actually give us something amazing they might have niche covered. There's some truth on what the CEO said that the hardware is easy these days as most of the manufacturers just go shopping for the chips.
Jolla wont of course ever have things like PureView or custom chips like Samsung.
true!
i was thinking in terms of "manufacturer" with factory, design dptmt, Q&A, Marketing & Sales and tutti quanti :D
if they are just making a design based on an Open Source OS...
that's roughly what Google was doing with their Nexus, right?
and now they bought Motorola...
in fact the FOSS based design seems the only way to go for a startup indeed
only... will "it" happen again? :confused: :eek:
The orginal Jolla thread has already degenarated into 100 or pages about the same matter. Lively discussion about semantics of few words in interviews, both fanboism and hatred before any product and the whole nine yards of convoluted interwebs miscommunication.
No need for a new thread.
feel free... not to post :cool:
I think the wording is not entirely clear. "consumers are not able to ..." could mean "average consumer does not know how to ..." (meaning ultimately "they will not be required to know how to ...")
Or of course it could mean "we will not allow them to ..."
Consumers are not able to hack the kernel or flash new software for the device
Why not? Almost all Androids are hackable and flashable. I see no reason why it can be a consumer device and still be hackable and flashable.
I think the Finns have lost it. They have been drinking too much Koskenkorva and staid too long in the sauna. Only one brian cell left and unable to have two thoughts in the head at any given time. I guess this means no multitasking either, too difficult.
Okay, but the phones not being so open isn't anything new.
Maemo 5, not fully open.
Harmattan, not fully open.
Just as long as we don't have to jump through the kind of hurdles that Aegis brought along with it and Jolla allows Mer to be as open to create anything we (the community) wants just like it was on the N900 (Maemo 5), then I see no real problem.
Bring something like Aegis to the table... problem. And if I have to void a warranty to get that freedom, so be it.
Stskeeps
2012-07-18, 20:01
Okay, but the phones not being so open isn't anything new.
Maemo 5, not fully open.
Harmattan, not fully open.
Just as long as we don't have to jump through the kind of hurdles that Aegis brought along with it and Jolla allows Mer to be as open to create anything we (the community) wants just like it was on the N900 (Maemo 5), then I see no real problem.
Bring something like Aegis to the table... problem. And if I have to void a warranty to get that freedom, so be it.
(edit: apologies to gerbick for using his post, but his interpretation is really the closest to sanity..)
This entire firestorm really seems to rely on the interpretation of something that can mean many different things and many different methods. Entirely blown too much out of proportion.
You'll have to wait for something offical on twitter, but in essence, it doesn't make much sense that Jolla is taking away freedoms they themselves use and have used to prototype their own systems on devices. Flashing own kernel and own OS and getting to keep both pieces if they break as a principle, is entirely fine with me, for example.
Read everything together in context (both text and target audience) instead of just those lines and things look darned much better.
I think the wording is not entirely clear. "consumers are not able to ..." could mean "average consumer does not know how to ..." (meaning ultimately "they will not be required to know how to ...")
Or of course it could mean "we will not allow them to ..."
this.......... exactly this is the reason why are modern products of any kind so boring, so look-alike, so simple, so restricted.............
mikecomputing
2012-07-18, 20:13
Wasn't there some upcoming plan that jolla should help with some hosting of mer OBS or similar. And also there was some plan to setup an event with deevamo and jolla?
I think people here should stop draw theyr own conclusions before we knows better! But two things we know:
1. No hw company will EVER be fully open source
2. Jolla has already said they will work with the community in some way.
wont be hacked?
i give it one day
Creamy Goodness
2012-07-18, 20:38
They already said it will be more open than windows phone for developers, and they are using a lot of open source stuff so it would be pretty hard to block us from modifying, recompiling, and adding things even if they wanted to. Just saying it's pretty hard to do the security "right" if that's the intent.
They also said the UI will be customizable, which hopefully means we can build our own swipeUI clone or whatever we want.
wont be hacked?
i give it one day
well said :D
Why not? Almost all Androids are hackable and flashable. I see no reason why it can be a consumer device and still be hackable and flashable.
I think the Finns have lost it. They have been drinking too much Koskenkorva and staid too long in the sauna. Only one brian cell left and unable to have two thoughts in the head at any given time. I guess this means no multitasking either, too difficult.
Full multitasking and customization is a go.
http://nokiagadgets.com/2012/07/16/new-jolla-interview-customization-and-real-multitasking-coming/
I would just chill at this point. There seems to be version where you are able to do this. How it will actually be restricted and so on. Jolla also seems to stay away from giving a picture on interviews that Jolla's phone will be just a nerd toy, stigma that didn't really serve MeeGo, N9, Maemo and N900.
I mean really, we don't know absolutely nothing yet.
You'll have to wait for something offical on twitter
Perhaps I'm getting old, but I can't get over how absurd that sounds :-)
but in essence, it doesn't make much sense that Jolla is taking away freedoms they themselves use and have used to prototype their own systems on devices.
It doesn't make any sense, but the thing is, if they did they wouldn't be the first ones, and such a move wouldn't be entirely unexpected from former Nokia or MeeGo people in the first place.
Flashing own kernel and own OS and getting to keep both pieces if they break as a principle, is entirely fine with me, for example.
Where do you draw the line? Is it reasonable to void the warranty (again, not sure of the legality of this) if you install an entirely different OS? If you recompile the vendor kernel but with a software feature like IPv6 enabled? If you remove Big Brother anti-features? If you fix a bug in the email client?
And why is it appropriate that the people who can and want to do some of the above, the very people who write/test/debug a lot of the code that comes pre-installed on the device, be treated like undesirable second hand citizens?
Having non-free parts is one thing, but locking down the device to prevent tinkering is a whole different kettle of fish. I for one don't want to be a customer of such a company, even if I can jump through some hoops and obtain their Royal Highnesses' concession to modify the device (which I paid for and theoretically own) to do what I want.
Read everything together in context (both text and target audience) instead of just those lines and things look darned much better.
I'm trying, but they still don't. If things are better than they seem, would it be unreasonable to ask them to make a brief statement re: device freedom to the audience that actually cares about the issue?
Android_808
2012-07-18, 22:01
if you read the full interview, they mention 2 phones. first out the door is more locked down as you've stated, for the less technically inclined. second is likely to be more open, more of a developer device.
i suppose the idea is to push a mass market device first to build brand.
Open, closed, open, closed, open, closed, open, closed. Is It open? Is It closed? Open, closed, open...
if you read the full interview, they mention 2 phones. first out the door is more locked down as you've stated, for the less technically inclined. second is likely to be more open, more of a developer device.
[...]
with a hardware keyboard ?!? :-D
" We did not expect that people will misinterpret this statement. As for the open part: Just follow what we are doing with Mer and Nemo -- our development there is completely in the open, and try to figure out how we would benefit from working on community projects now, only to later annoy them with a locked phone ;)" posted by employee of jolla....
so, it is more-less like harmattan but seems like without aegis :D
guess more open than we figured :S
Lumiaman
2012-07-18, 22:13
Do you really want to own dinghy phones?
Creamy Goodness
2012-07-18, 22:27
better than fruit phones
jpetrise
2012-07-19, 02:58
there will be developer mode so you can hack to your hearts content
Do you really want to own dinghy phones?
always better then Titanic ¦-))))))))))))))))))))))))
the only reason Android is so successful is because it is so open.1st:
Android isn't successful because it's open but because it's "end-user friendly" (whatever that means - most people can use it intuitively).
My father is a good example for this. He has a Galaxy S2 and has what is usually called "advanced computer skills": He can maintain his Windows PC, is clever enough to avoid the common PEBKAC problems and in theory knows how to code. But he hasn't coded himself for more than 20 years now, so he couldn't care less about his phone's operating system being open source.
2nd:
Google frequently fails to deliver the source code as required by #2 of the open source definition [1] and has to be reminded very often to release it.
Also, even though it's not strictly a failure in terms of the OSD #2 & #3 since these paragraphs only refer to the license Google's Android is (or at least has been in the past when I checked) technically designed to make derived works hard without ripping the whole system apart and putting it back together from scratch. For example in Android 2.2 it was not possible even on a rooted phone to load additional kernel modules simply because the /system partition where these modules HAD to be stored had virtually no free space left. Resizing the partition was not possible due to automated integrity checks that complained about wrong partition sizes.
bottom line:
Yes, strictly spoken Android is open source by the terms of the OSD once they released the source code. But if you don't go by the definition but by the spirit of open source Android is not open. Google only makes it as open as is required by the licenses they are obliged to respect. Unfortunately this kind of openness is worthless.
[1] http://opensource.org/docs/osd
Android_808
2012-07-19, 07:51
with a hardware keyboard ?!? :-D
They haven't released any specifications yet, and won't do until the time is right. Why say were going ship a device with X amount of RAM, Y GHz etc now, when there may be better options or more constraints nearer the time.
Full interview
http://www.ossimantylahti.com/2012/07/interview-of-jussi-hurmola-jolla-mobiles-managing-director/
1st:
Android isn't successful because it's open but because it's "end-user friendly" (whatever that means - most people can use it intuitively).
My father is a good example for this. He has a Galaxy S2 and has what is usually called "advanced computer skills": He can maintain his Windows PC, is clever enough to avoid the common PEBKAC problems and in theory knows how to code. But he hasn't coded himself for more than 20 years now, so he couldn't care less about his phone's operating system being open source.
2nd:
Google frequently fails to deliver the source code as required by #2 of the open source definition [1] and has to be reminded very often to release it.
Also, even though it's not strictly a failure in terms of the OSD #2 & #3 since these paragraphs only refer to the license Google's Android is (or at least has been in the past when I checked) technically designed to make derived works hard without ripping the whole system apart and putting it back together from scratch. For example in Android 2.2 it was not possible even on a rooted phone to load additional kernel modules simply because the /system partition where these modules HAD to be stored had virtually no free space left. Resizing the partition was not possible due to automated integrity checks that complained about wrong partition sizes.
bottom line:
Yes, strictly spoken Android is open source by the terms of the OSD once they released the source code. But if you don't go by the definition but by the spirit of open source Android is not open. Google only makes it as open as is required by the licenses they are obliged to respect. Unfortunately this kind of openness is worthless.
[1] http://opensource.org/docs/osd
So by "your" definition OSD is worthless because it is not in accordance to the "spirit" of open source. Please....
Why is a thing popular? Android is popular because it is available and most brands have chosen to use Android as their main OS. That's the real reason.
Keyword is availability. Android is popular because it soars as the most available OS ever to have seen the light of day. More available in every sense of the word than Maemo ever was, not to speak of Harmattan.
That is another nail in the coffin for Jolla. They have no perception for the idea of availability (in a broad sense). Trust me!
Jolla was very very clear that they would be releasing a consumer product,
ie one that is locked down.
Then they would also release an enthusiastic device, which would cater for the open source community.
The OSS device is not locked down, but rather, open
There are trying to cater for the mass market and then also cater for the hardcore OSS users.
Half-Life_4_Life
2012-07-19, 09:21
I don't care if it is hackable or whatever.If they succeed they will show what Nokia could've done with MeeGo.It just shows that MeeGo isn't all dead.And they might add support for custom ROM's if they really succeed (I think i wrote that correctly :) )
Well here's the bad news we've all been dreading about the Jolla phones:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/364288/20120718/jolla-mobile-launch-app-store-angry-birds.htm
:(
I think you need to learn to read between the lines here....
Read his comment again, there will be hackability there for those that want it & (ideally) know what they're doing.
It just won't be there OOTB, as it shouldn't be when you're targeting mass-market/mainstream.
I'd be surprised if they had a security framework as convoluted as AEGIS (or one at all), but that remains to be seen.
Oh and here is the original Jolla general discussion thread:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85315
Let keep it there please, better to have everyone's thoughts/findings focused in the one place.
" We did not expect that people will misinterpret this statement. As for the open part: Just follow what we are doing with Mer and Nemo -- our development there is completely in the open, and try to figure out how we would benefit from working on community projects now, only to later annoy them with a locked phone ;)" posted by employee of jolla....
Source please?
I think you need to learn to read between the lines here....
Read his comment again, there will be hackability there for those that want it & (ideally) know what they're doing.
It just won't be there OOTB, as it shouldn't be when you're targeting mass-market/mainstream.
I'd be surprised if they had a security framework as convoluted as AEGIS (or one at all), but that remains to be seen.
I have to disagree. STOP reading between the lines. That's what's been going on with Maemo all the time. People pretending things are better than they actually are. Regarding Jolla, this is it. It won't become more open just because you want it to be more open, just because you have an urge to "read between the lines"
I mean this is totally wacko. A company (Jolla) who can't communicate straight, and a community that can't listen straight, not even when Jolla is communicating straight. I would believe you have learned from 5-6 years with Nokia, but no.
So by "your" definition OSD is worthless because it is not in accordance to the "spirit" of open source. Please....No. All I'm saying is that strictly going by the OSD may be a necessary condition for a product to be open source but it can't be a sufficient one.
It's the same with all legal definitions. You may have high aims and you may even be able to write them down in a pretty precise way, but all that doesn't help if someone who is obliged to obey to the rules you wrote down doesn't really embrace your reason for formulating them in the first place. He'll always find a way around it so he can still point at your list of rules and say he obeys to all of them but at the same time he can use those tiny gaps that exist in every set of rules to do the exact opposite of what you as a person (not your sheet of rules) originally had in mind.
In that (and only in that) case I say someone's claim to obey to your rules is worthless if he doesn't really share your motifs.
I have to disagree. STOP reading between the lines. That's what's been going on with Maemo all the time. People pretending things are better than they actually are. Regarding Jolla, this is it. It won't become more open just because you want it to be more open, just because you have an urge to "read between the lines"
I mean this is totally wacko. A company (Jolla) who can't communicate straight, and a community that can't listen straight, not even when Jolla is communicating straight. I would believe you have learned from 5-6 years with Nokia, but no.
Have you been READING the main thread & comments from people involved in the project AND closely associated entities?
Apparently not......
No "wackoness" here, but thanks for the compliment, just inferring from what we know, and what has been explained.
Source please?
it's @ facebook, Jolla Pioneer Fans, one of replies on post by Zerstörer Romero
i am not quite sure how to link posts from facebook though
edit:
i never said that Zerstörer Romero works for jolla, but that guy who works for jolla made comment on Zerstörer Romero's post in that group
Stskeeps
2012-07-19, 11:47
it's @ facebook, Jolla Pioneer Fans, one of replies on post by Zerstörer Romero
i am not quite sure how to link posts from facebook though
He's not a Jolla employee and that facebook group is not official.
He's not a Jolla employee and that facebook group is not official.
group is not official, but I am a Jolla employee. This statement should not be read as "the device will be locked" 15th comment on that post.
so...idk, really
crisscross
2012-07-19, 11:56
He's not a Jolla employee and that facebook group is not official.
He is not but apparently the guy who posted the comment is, Bernd Wachter. Engineer at jolla.
Some other comments he made:
"I am a Jolla employee. This statement should not be read as "the device will be locked""
"I can only repeat what I already said: This statement is supposed to be read as 'the average customer lacks the skill to hack the kernel', and to emphasize that we never announced that we will lock the device. Before you get annoyed with us: Please check sources when reading news articles, to see if there might be translation errors from Finnish articles. Re-read carefully, especially when english is not your mother-tongue, and bear in mind that some or all parties involved in the interview might not be native speakers as well."
"Please read my comments, I already clarified it in more than one post. One last time: According to Merriam-Webster dictionary one definition of 'able' is 'having sufficient power, skill, or resources to accomplish an object'. If you apply this definition to the sentence mentioned you should come to the conclusion that the statement was "Consumers don't have the skill to hack the device", not -- what you constantly repeat -- consumers will be prevented from hacking the device."
Stskeeps
2012-07-19, 12:09
He is not but apparently the guy who posted the comment is, Bernd Wachter. Engineer at jolla.
Some other comments he made:
"I am a Jolla employee. This statement should not be read as "the device will be locked""
"I can only repeat what I already said: This statement is supposed to be read as 'the average customer lacks the skill to hack the kernel', and to emphasize that we never announced that we will lock the device. Before you get annoyed with us: Please check sources when reading news articles, to see if there might be translation errors from Finnish articles. Re-read carefully, especially when english is not your mother-tongue, and bear in mind that some or all parties involved in the interview might not be native speakers as well."
"Please read my comments, I already clarified it in more than one post. One last time: According to Merriam-Webster dictionary one definition of 'able' is 'having sufficient power, skill, or resources to accomplish an object'. If you apply this definition to the sentence mentioned you should come to the conclusion that the statement was "Consumers don't have the skill to hack the device", not -- what you constantly repeat -- consumers will be prevented from hacking the device."
I can confirm that Bernd is an employee and this is accurate.
Think 'developer mode' that doesn't suck and enables you to flash own OS/kernel if you want.
"Please read my comments, I already clarified it in more than one post. One last time: According to Merriam-Webster dictionary one definition of 'able' is 'having sufficient power, skill, or resources to accomplish an object'. If you apply this definition to the sentence mentioned you should come to the conclusion that the statement was "Consumers don't have the skill to hack the device", not -- what you constantly repeat -- consumers will be prevented from hacking the device."
Thank-you. Which was exactly my point in my first post here...
I can confirm that Bernd is an employee and this is accurate.
Think 'developer mode' that doesn't suck and enables you to flash own OS/kernel if you want.
Exactly, the people that still don't get this but have been reading the main thread & other main sources.
Well, I can only assume they have very poor reading comprehension or they just enjoy flame-baiting.
onethreealpha
2012-07-19, 12:50
I can only assume they have very poor reading comprehension or they just enjoy flame-baiting.
Bang on the money with both points.
Easier to argue here where you have a captive audience, than at the pub where you might get a black eye for you stupidity...
Generally speaking, people seem to have forgetten that this is a tiny startup that suddenly got 10k+ twitter followers and a flood of interviews and media attention from all the way to the Wall Street Journal.
Their communication capabilities have been totally overreached. Lets just wait until they got something to show and judge them on that basis. Right now I would prefer that they communicate even less and instead focus on finishing the product and business plans. Both the positive hype and (especially) scepticism on maemotalk has gone totally overboard.
Might I suggest that they try to get their PR message together and put it on an official website or something rather than badly translated interviews and random posts on twitter and facebook?
That's reasonable, but it doesn't excuse the sheer FUD due to folks who can't or won't read.
Not talking about the MANY MORE who haven't read or know, not entirely their fault.
That's reasonable, but it doesn't excuse the sheer FUD due to folks who can't or won't read.
Not talking about the MANY MORE who haven't read or know, not entirely their fault.
FUD? if Jolla knew the basics of communication things would be much better.
What he did was to say one thing, then turn 180 degree and say what he really meant was the opposite! Grow up! or at least learn basic communication. Stop talking in half finished sentences and half truths is a good start.
thedead1440
2012-07-19, 14:08
looking at the responses here i can honestly say i totally agree with the tags...sometimes its about broadening your own vision...
FUD? if Jolla knew the basics of communication things would be much better.
What he did was to say one thing, then turn 180 degree and say what he really meant was the opposite! Grow up! or at least learn basic communication. Stop talking in half finished sentences and half truths is a good start.
Okay you're right, totally terrible communication, they should just give up now while they're behind.
Argument done and dusted, you win, now can we go back to the main thread please.
Might I suggest that they try to get their PR message together and put it on an official website or something rather than badly translated interviews and random posts on twitter and facebook?
Good idea, but you should be telling it to them (http://twitter.com/JollaMobile) instead of us.
Good idea, but you should be telling it to them (http://twitter.com/JollaMobile) instead of us.
If they are so into open source and the community (as they all of the sudden started being), why aren't they here, at least one of them. If for no other reason than to set things straight.
Just some short straight sentences of what to expect wouldn't hurt.
mariusmssj
2012-07-19, 15:17
There we go, now please close this thread !
There we go, now please close this thread !
Not good enough. They have to come here and tell us "in person" !
Stskeeps
2012-07-19, 15:40
We did, but nobody seems to listen..
There we go, now please close this thread !
Cheers, looks like pretty proactive & clear communication.
Please report your post to the mods, I've reported one of mine here.
The more that do, the greater the chance they'll close this redundant thread.
Don't everyone do it, that may just piss them off! :-)
Not good enough. They have to come here and tell us "in person" !
C'mon now, now you really are just flame-baiting ;)
We did, but nobody seems to listen..
I hear/feel ya :rolleyes:
Here's a thought: why don't we do our own interview? We could collect questions here and once we have a good set have the council forward them via email, or perhaps a moderated chat on #maemo-meeting?
Odd_gunnic
2012-07-19, 15:46
Not good enough. They have to come here and tell us "in person" !
Hahaha this guy! Let's also ask them to send all of us prototypes so we can physically verify this! :D
Here's a thought: why don't we do our own interview? We could collect questions here and once we have a good set have the council forward them via email, or perhaps a moderated chat on #maemo-meeting?
Great idea, MyNokiaBlog has recently done this, it has many members from this commune, but TMO-centric would be better
But collect them in the original thread (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85315) & close this one....
mrsellout
2012-07-19, 15:58
Here's a thought: why don't we do our own interview? We could collect questions here and once we have a good set have the council forward them via email, or perhaps a moderated chat on #maemo-meeting?
It's a great idea, but do we have to ask the Council to do this? They've got their work cut out with the whole transition thing and to heap more work might be unkind.
I think the moderated chat idea might be far better so people ca ask what they like, and Jolla can answer what they want to. Although can we already do that at #jollamobile?
mikecomputing
2012-07-19, 16:15
Have you been READING the main thread & comments from people involved in the project AND closely associated entities?
Apparently not......
No "wackoness" here, but thanks for the compliment, just inferring from what we know, and what has been explained.
Please don't feed the troll...
mikecomputing
2012-07-19, 16:21
Might I suggest that they try to get their PR message together and put it on an official website or something rather than badly translated interviews and random posts on twitter and facebook?
Yes they should have a site but setting up such proffesionell site is not done in a week, they can't just setup a random "wordpress site" with all the attention they had gotten latelly.
Give them some time for got sake. Have anyone here ever tried to setup a new company? I doubt....
It's a great idea, but do we have to ask the Council to do this? They've got their work cut out with the whole transition thing and to heap more work might be unkind.
I think the moderated chat idea might be far better so people ca ask what they like, and Jolla can answer what they want to. Although can we already do that at #jollamobile?
Better to formulate a list of Qns systematically, instead of devising them on-the-spot in a chat session...
Even if we had pre-formulated Qns, still best to let them have time to mull over them, instead of having to answer "real-time" in a chat session.
Even if they had time to mull over them before the chat session, it's still all a bit messy, not to mention exlusionary.
The thread's best suited IMO, we can link to a Google doc or wiki from it, so we have one central repository in which to place all our thoughts/Qns.
Then when done we can send the link & they can answer in-line, or directly in the thread, whatever suits.
thedead1440
2012-07-19, 16:36
jalyst i think you should start a thread where people can post their suggested questions then accordingly create a wiki for it....if everyone from the very beginning starts editing the wiki, its going to be a mess and some people as we have seen earlier today will just be posting madness...
Okay I've placed a link to a google doc in the main thread here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239863#post1239863).
If others strongly disagree with this approach for some reason we can do something else, doesn't bother me either way.
I can confirm that Bernd is an employee and this is accurate.
Think 'developer mode' that doesn't suck and enables you to flash own OS/kernel if you want.
Fremantle?
[...]
Well, I can only assume they have very poor reading comprehension or they just enjoy flame-baiting.
or simply don't have the time to read nearly 1'000 posts...
:rolleyes:
not yet locked :-O :S (how to add tags? :D)
or simply don't have the time to read nearly 1'000 posts...
:rolleyes:
Nice of you to conveniently omit the sentence before the one you quoted:
Exactly, the people that still don't get this but have been reading the main thread & other main sources.
Well, I can only assume they have very poor reading comprehension or they just enjoy flame-baiting.
Anyway, why flog a dead horse, we're going to get answers to many of the lingering Qns now.
Which should hopefully make people at least a bit happier...
onethreealpha
2012-07-20, 00:17
... we're going to get answers to many of the lingering Qns now.
Which should hopefully make people at least a bit happier...
Can't make strawberry jam out of cowsh*t.
the people complaining loudest have already been given the answers, but unlike most of us, have chosen to ignore them.
If nothing else this, and the other Jolla thread has allowed me to add some new idiots to my blocked list
So with the closed/open discussion behind us, I want to see the device now.
Or at least a few screens.
We did, but nobody seems to listen..
:D Fair enough. But you are a soft spoken person. What is needed is load and clear speech, accurate and precise. That's the only thing working to clear these woods of all the trolls ;)
not yet locked :-O :S (how to add tags? :D)
You can create tags after you reach 300 posts.
Keep plugging away, you are almost there mate :)
So with the closed/open discussion behind us, I want to see the device now.
Or at least a few screens.
This have to be it... Nice design, something familiar bout it though, don't know what exactly :rolleyes:
http://www.lajollabluebook.com/assets/find-it/find-it-la-jolla-iPhone.jpg
Eeewww, where is the keyboard, Is that one of Taliban phones that I keep reading about?
;)
Yes, strictly spoken Android is open source by the terms of the OSD once they released the source code. But if you don't go by the definition but by the spirit of open source Android is not open. Google only makes it as open as is required by the licenses they are obliged to respect. Unfortunately this kind of openness is worthless.
Still, it's possible to build a working AOSP with working userspace for the N900/N9 (phone calls, etc.. are "hardware adaption", and that's just not done yet), but you can't build Harmattan for an Android device (driver issues aside). The equivalent to AOSP would be Nemo, but it's not day-to-day usable as a phone OS (at least for me). The AOSP UX is (basically) used by Google for their Nexus phones, so it has to work as "standalone product".
Differentiation in Android happens by adding non-essential components or replacing fully working components in AOSP by something from the vendor (TouchWiz, Sense, etc..) whereas in MeeGo/Maemo (what I've seen so far), it happens by *providing* components in the first place - with no or incomplete open source replacements available (mostly that's the UX - "window manager", phone, SMS, contacts apps, web browser, camera app, etc...).
don_falcone
2012-07-20, 08:56
Hahaha, i knew i've seen this around two months ago in .AU:
>>http://cdn.portfoliobox.net/__clients/11387/settings/menu-logo.png (http://specc.portfoliobox.net/)<<
onethreealpha
2012-07-20, 09:04
Hahaha, i knew i've seen this around two months ago in .AU:
>>http://cdn.portfoliobox.net/__clients/11387/settings/menu-logo.png (http://specc.portfoliobox.net/)<<
I take offense to the insinuation!!! ;)
Hahaha, i knew i've seen this around two months ago in .AU:
>>http://cdn.portfoliobox.net/__clients/11387/settings/menu-logo.png (http://specc.portfoliobox.net/)<<
mmmmm food :D
I don't see the point in sending of a bunch of questions to Jolla to get some straight answers as I don't see them being more straight than allready stated from them.
It's a company and they will be kind of blured as they could change direction along the cause and if they promise/state something and in the end it won't be as stated alot will come whinning and moning about broken promises and stuff.
Why not just use the channels already provided and get your info there or better wait for the device to surface.
Regards Dousan...
Well it was suggested here (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239831#post1239831) by Ima, discussed further, & we've begun (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aBs6y-UbmMPQGLT4DIethLxfwfDhh9vx2lOn-v9TphY/edit?pli=1), so we may as well finish it.
Sounded like a sound idea in principle, we're the ones with the "gazillion" questions...
Of course they can't or won't answer many of them....
But if it clears up at least some of the misconceptions/concerns, then that's better than nothing.
I just wish this thread would be closed or merged into the main one already...
Andre Klapper
2012-07-21, 22:09
Well here's the bad news
:(
As per https://twitter.com/JollaMobile :
"Most of the Jolla OS will be open source, yes."
"The details about developer mode and device will be clarified in near future, thanks!"
Nobody ever promised something that is 100% open and it's been explained a billion times on this forum why it's so hard to be 100% open. If people still know better, they can try themselves. ;)
dumpystig
2012-07-21, 23:22
Jolla phones: not so open
OK. That's fine with me.
End of story.
What do you mean by 'not so open'? Do you think maemo/meego are fully open? If yes, you are very, very wrong. I will give you some examples on the N900's maemo - camera app, music player, phone app, calendar and many many more are not open source.
PERSONALLY What I need from a 'open' phone is
1.Based on Linux
2.The ability to tweak files inside the phone, modifying system/settings files
and if jolla devices or any other newer OS doesn't offer me that ability I will stay with my N900, even if it has to be forever!
mikecomputing
2013-06-02, 14:08
Here we go again....
Here we go again....
Yes, thats why it's a forum and everybody can freely say his/her opinion, if you dont like it - leave.
mikecomputing
2013-06-02, 14:16
Yes, thats why it's a forum and everybody can freely say his/her opinion, if you dont like it - leave.
thread reloop
If I say it's open. Someone say it's not open.
If I say it's not open. Someone say it open.
It's not open and it's not closed.
thread reloop
blah-blah-blah
Are all your comments like that? Seriously, type something meaningful. Maybe some real sentences will do the trick.
If I say it's open. Someone say it's not open.
If I say it's not open. Someone say it open.
It's not open and it's not closed.
Are you talking about me? Because I dont remember saying its fully open/closed.
danested
2013-06-02, 14:57
Woah, Tanago why so upset?
We don't know yet how open Sailfish will be. Hopefully fully open. So no point to speculate until the release and further announcements.
javispedro
2013-06-02, 15:50
Actually, there is a point to speculation: so that Jolla knows what will happen when/if they fail to deliver a fully open phone :)
bingomion
2013-06-02, 15:52
We don't know yet how open Sailfish will be. Hopefully fully open. So no point to speculate until the release and further announcements.
think nokia, with the nokia price tag only difference is the cheap hardware.
Dont expect it to be open at all!
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239418#post1239418
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239730#post1239730
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239825#post1239825
After skimming through this entire thread again, I wonder why it never ended-up being closed at #82 or #84.
It was def. redundant at the time given the several other points of discussion we already had, perhaps there wasn't enough mods then.
think nokia, with the nokia price tag only difference is the cheap hardware.
Dont expect it to be open at all!
Which Nokia price tag?
I paid for my Nokia N9 on 26th of November 2011:577,90 EUR
For my Jolla I will pay not more than 399€. So it could be even less than 399€.
How do you know it's cheap hardware? Have you seen the final product quality, do you know final hardware specs?
Go away troll.
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239418#post1239418
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239730#post1239730
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239825#post1239825
After skimming through this entire thread again, I wonder why it never ended-up being closed at #82 or #84.
It was def. redundant at the time given the several other points of discussion we already had, perhaps there wasn't enough mods then.
Reported your post with a request to close this thread.
When this thread was last most active, we knew very little, far more has become known since, there's still unanswered elements admittedly.
I suppose we could establish a thread dedicated to this area of discussion (or renew this one), but it seems redundant when:
(1)
We already have threads where we can (& do) discuss such subject matter
(2)
We're not likely to get the final pieces to the puzzle until after the 1st device is out
(We've been given several explanations as-to-why that's the case...)
How do we know more now then we did before about this?
So, Jolla admits that there'll be no custom ROMs or kernels.
Well, if it's truly a more open experience that people want, why not go Android? I had a custom kernel and ROM flashed in no time, after unlocking the bootloader, rooting, getting ADB + Fastboot, and flashing a custom recovery.
I just flashed a custom ROM based on 4.2.2 yesterday on my HTC One. The freedom does make a positive difference.
To each his or her own, and I still may get the Jolla phone later this year, but I'm sure it won't be as open.
How do we know more now then we did before about this?
REALLY? REALLY?
Are you srsly trying to suggest we haven't learnt a **** load more about their approach since July 2012 when we 1st heard about them? What about all the **** we learnt just before/after Slush?
Just because you have some kind of short --> long-term memory problem, doesn't mean folks should have to constantly re-hash stuff for you. :rolleyes:
So, Jolla admits that there'll be no custom ROMs or kernels.
Relax, very old thread, someone massively necro'd it, it died July 20th 2012.
Skim through it, or if you can't do that, at least see my post at #95...
ArchiMark
2013-06-02, 17:30
Actually, there is a point to speculation: so that Jolla knows what will happen when/if they fail to deliver a fully open phone :)
Yeah, I'm sure that Jolla has someone monitoring this thread to help determine their strategic direction...
;)
Reported this thread to be closed.. Nothing new will come out of it that hasn't been already said.
REALLY? REALLY?
Are you srsly trying to suggest we haven't learnt a **** load more about their approach since July 2012 when we 1st heard about them? What about all the **** we learnt just before/after Slush?
Just because you have some kind of short --> long-term memory problem, doesn't mean folks should have to constantly re-hash stuff for you. :rolleyes:
Relax, very old thread, someone massively necro'd it, it died July 20th 2012.
Skim through it, or if you can't do that, at least see my post at #95...
We might have learned a **** load of stuff between now and then. But you don't know if and how open or closed or what you need to do to access the phone. Sure we know what Stskeeps are saying. But he doesn't make the decisions at jolla. And even to I trust his character and expertise, I don't take it as facts until jolla announce it and neither should you.
We can discuss it here or in another thread. But closing the thread doesn't help us get any answers or the device.
So, Jolla admits that there'll be no custom ROMs or kernels.
Where did you get that kind of information?
AFAIK the device will have open kernel and open middleware, only the top part of Sailfish is closed.
Open or closed, if it doesn't sell well, it won't matter.
Open or closed, if it doesn't sell well, it won't matter.
You are wrong. It might not matter to you but I bet it still matters to the once with the device. Except mikecomputing it seems. :D
jellyroll
2013-06-02, 22:59
Well here's the bad news we've all been dreading about the Jolla phones:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/364288/20120718/jolla-mobile-launch-app-store-angry-birds.htm
:(
"Jolla is going to release a developer edition of the device which gives full access to linux hackers and technology enthusiasts. Jolla will fully support the communities and be part of them, and wants them to be part of creating and developing our device," the spokeswoman confirmed.
But you don't know if and how open or closed or what you need to do to access the phone.
Um yes we do, not all of it, but we have found out significant chunks, your memory failing you doesn't make it true for most who've been following along.
Sure we know what Stskeeps are saying. But he doesn't make the decisions at jolla. And even to I trust his character and expertise, I don't take it as facts until jolla announce it and neither should you.
There's no qualifications about what he said in this area, if there was any doubt whatsoever he wouldn't say a word, this is one area we know they'll deliver on.
There's been other areas he/others won't comment on, but this is one in which they've come out very early, & stated the facts in no uncertain terms.
And it makes sense, it's not something that'd hurt them, to the contrary, given their background & all their stated intents, it's something they would do.
We can discuss it here or in another thread. But closing the thread doesn't help us get any answers or the device.
And having a 2nd, 3rd, or 7th thread discussing the same content doesn't make getting answers more effective, if messaging is scattered/confused it only hinders that.
Besides, I already said perhaps a dedicated thread for this topic is fine...
I merely qualified that by saying it doesn't make much sense, because they're not likely to reveal the "final pieces" until after the first device is out.
Where did you get that kind of information?
AFAIK the device will have open kernel and open middleware, only the top part of Sailfish is closed.
Yep, all this was asked & then clarified towards the end of last year, & early this year.
But, once again, the same users are out & about, feeding on their staple diet of FUD.
"Jolla is going to release a developer edition of the device which gives full access to linux hackers and technology enthusiasts<SNIP>," the spokeswoman confirmed.
The article is deprecated/irrelevant, read through the thread....
Ok, let's not close the thread. The thread close itself when the time is right.
Wasn't there some upcoming plan that jolla should help with some hosting of mer OBS or similar. And also there was some plan to setup an event with deevamo and jolla?
I think people here should stop draw theyr own conclusions before we knows better! But two things we know:
1. No hw company will EVER be fully open source
2. Jolla has already said they will work with the community in some way.
GTA-04 is open source hardware which is commercially produced. It is based on another open source hardware project - BeagleBoard. Arduino is open hardware, which makes it possible to produce Arduino's in Armenia: http://norayr.arnet.am/weblog/tag/arduino/
mikecomputing
2013-06-21, 15:13
GTA-04 is open source hardware which is commercially produced. It is based on another open source hardware project - BeagleBoard. Arduino is open hardware, which makes it possible to produce Arduino's in Armenia: http://norayr.arnet.am/weblog/tag/arduino/
no no, beagle is NOT fully open source.
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