View Full Version : Microsoft buying Nokia's devices & services
It looks like the real situation has finally surfaced. The following article at engadget says it all. Microsoft is buying out Nokia.
http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/02/microsoft-will-acquire-nokias-devices-and-services-business/
Psst... started a thread in Off-Topic earlier (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1371421#post1371421)...
oops. And I did a search too. Can someone please merge the threads before it gets unwieldy?
Yeah, this was expected ever since Elop ditched Meego. Nothing good will come out of this - only more patent racket and etc.
So many people have said :never happen, no profit for Microsoft to do so and so forth.
I guess all are wrong...
My question. What is left of Nokia? Number of employees? Areas?
Will the Lumias phones be named...
Nokia Lumia?
Microsoft lumia?
Only lumia?
panjgoori
2013-09-03, 04:01
we all knew that Elop will sell Nokia to Microsoft and now it happened. but its still sad for me.
soryuuha
2013-09-03, 04:18
trojan horse!!!!
now lumiaman can fap to elop happily
nokiabot
2013-09-03, 04:31
awsome now the name just needs a change.....
well, this is really sad, but we can be happy some people escaped from this sinking ship to a dinghy - or like it's called in Finnish: Jolla
Is jolla the biggest mobile manufacturer in Finland now? :D or is the expensive phone manufacturer still based in Finland?
we all knew that Elop will sell Nokia to Microsoft and now it happened. but its still sad for me.
And at this point Elop can return to the dark side of the moon, claim Ballmer's throne and, first and foremost, GTFO.
Schturman
2013-09-03, 05:38
R.I.P Nokia... :(
Viva La Jolla :D
hardy_magnus
2013-09-03, 05:53
sad news. I think this was the deal between elop n ballmer. Elop Helping microsoft to buyout ruined nokia just to be in the race of becoming next microsoft ceo.
This is the Endgame of BlackBerry and Nokia, and the real question is what it will mean for Sailfish. The fall heavyweights are going to own the rest of the year and the challengers have been scattered.
Nokia runs for the hills, er that is, to Microsoft. We'll see how that works out. My guess is that it won't work out well. At any rate, Nokia saw the storm on the horizon and has been begging to be acquired by Microsoft ever since.
The Crackberry forum has been buzzing about BB devices being pulled from T-Mobile stores and going direct sale only. Best Buy also had similar news concerning BlackBerry inventories for Verizon and AT&T and going direct ship once inventories sell down, and the same story is happening at Radio Shack. Buh-bye BlackBerry.
So into this competitive landscape comes Sailfish. Predictions?
No surprise here.
We all knew this is going to happen.
snowboarder
2013-09-03, 06:45
Finally!!!...good riddance!!!!
I for one am glad that this company is now history and will be relegated to the dustbin of history. This explains perfectly why they ditched their linux portfolio of products. Microsoft considers linux a cancer and there was no way they were going to support or continue to manufacture linux based products. Many of us knew that fat slob was a Microsoft trojan and now it's all been laid out for everyone to see.
The only sad part to this is that now Microsoft owns all the Nokia mobile patents and they WILL start doing whatever they can to squash Android, Sailfish, Tizen...basically any linux based mobile will now be on their radar. Get ready for a slew of lawsuits against these linux based OSs...
SB
Is this really legal? Sending a trojan and buy it cheap when the castle has fallen? Do you know of any decent link regarding the legality of this matter? Not that I own Nokia/MS stocks just curious... :)
Also, could this pose a threat to the Neo900 project legal-wise?
zlatokosi
2013-09-03, 06:47
A big FU to Micro$oft and Elop.
A bigger FU to Nokia for letting it happen.
http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aAYdV9d_460s_v2.jpg
hate it, we may but i have a feeling this Nokia + MS marriage will actually be successful. maybe not successful enough to be #1 but definitely successful enough to hurt Apple and Google so that they feel pain.
MS has a lot of R&D which they have problems getting out the door (commercializing) in a good cadence. Nokia has cool R&D (not as many as MS) which they manage to get out of the door.
Nokia understands the mobile industry (and consumers) more so than MS could ever do in the next 10000000000 years.
MS understands the enterprise story more than Nokia could ever do in the next 999999999999 years.
yadda yadda yadda
i'll say give them 12-18 months to start seeing some really cool stuff that the average joe would want to buy.
MS and Nokia (prior to the purchase) are like a little mozzie bite to Apple and Google.
trojan horse!!!!
now lumiaman can fap to elop happily
LOL, hmm he was a MS until 2010, after which he joined Nokia - and sank it. You do the math :-O
Great news for nokia now we can enjoy the mighty square ui phones even more.
R.I.P Nokia... :(
You are about 2,5 years late.
RIP Nokia was in 2011 (Elopcalypse). It just took a while to bury the corpse.
LOL, hmm he was a MS until 2010, after which he joined Nokia - and sank it. You do the math :-O
I have to congratulate Elop for the job. Well done! He executed the plan perfectly.
My question is this. How can the board accept a low price like this? They are the once to blame. Elop did well. Sad but true.
http://www.mobilebulgaria.com/uploads/news/2013/09/pic_3_28277.jpg
Microsoft bought Nokia for 5,44 billion Euro
Microsoft to acquire Nokia’s devices & services business, license Nokia’s patents and mapping services
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2013/Sep13/09-02AnnouncementPR.aspx
The Next Chapter: An open letter from Steve Ballmer and Stephen Elop
http://conversations.nokia.com/2013/09/03/the-next-chapter-an-open-letter-from-steve-ballmer-and-stephen-elop/
Accelerating Growth
Microsoft’s strategic rationale for deal announced
with Nokia on September 3, 2013
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/download/press/2013/StrategicRationale.pdf
Can anyone clue me in: how can Microsoft buy Nokia for $7.2 billion, if the current market cap for NOK is $14 billion? How does acquisition of publicly traded companies work?
hate it, we may but i have a feeling this Nokia + MS marriage will actually be successful. maybe not successful enough to be #1 but definitely successful enough to hurt Apple and Google so that they feel pain.
Not really. It will continue to be something in the single digits percentage, a mosquito bothering pair of elephants.
MS has a lot of R&D which they have problems getting out the door (commercializing) in a good cadence. Nokia has cool R&D (not as many as MS) which they manage to get out of the door.
Not really. When was the last time you saw any innovations come from MS?
They are pretty good at this acquire and destroy business but cannot hold on to HW business.
Nokia understands the mobile industry (and consumers) more so than MS could ever do in the next 10000000000 years.
Not really. Or else they would not have fscked up their OS business so bad they fell into MS's gentle lap.
MS understands the enterprise story more than Nokia could ever do in the next 999999999999 years.
Not really. They are just forcing themselves on corporate environment by sheer force and through incapability of managers in general to understand tehcnical matters.
yadda yadda yadda
There, you finally got it :D
i'll say give them 12-18 months to start seeing some really cool stuff that the average joe would want to buy.
Not in a 1x10⁶ years.
MS and Nokia (prior to the purchase) are like a little mozzie bite to Apple and Google.
Yes. And continue to be.
Can anyone clue me in: how can Microsoft buy Nokia for $7.2 billion, if the current market cap for NOK is $14 billion? How does acquisition of publicly traded companies work?
Cos they only bought the Devices.
NSN is where the money in NOK comes from.
The only sad part to this is that now Microsoft owns all the Nokia mobile patents and they WILL start doing whatever they can to squash Android, Sailfish, Tizen...basically any linux based mobile will now be on their radar. Get ready for a slew of lawsuits against these linux based OSs...
SB
As far as I know, Nokia still owns its patents, they will not been sold to Microsoft. This is a good news for Finland.
pishta74
2013-09-03, 08:27
Looking from the marketing perspective, this is very good news for Jolla and the long waited sign for GO!
The patent thing can be harsh for everyone though
Cos they only bought the Devices.
NSN is where the money in NOK comes from.
Thanks, I figured that out eventually. A bit slow this morning...
Well, it seems like a decent deal for Nokia then.
Akkumaru
2013-09-03, 09:07
I think Jolla has more chance from this for some reason...
Remember this?
Elop is the 7th biggest Microsoft shareholder!
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=69745
I wonder how will this affect his shares ...
Mikkosssss
2013-09-03, 09:46
Elop is the 7th biggest Microsoft shareholder!
I wonder how will this affect his shares ...
10 characters
Nokia choices:
A) Try something different with lots of potential, do a partnership with said Megacorporation, go all-in
B) Do what everyone's doing. Go with Android (2.1 at the time), end up like HTC
C) Follows through with current plans. Roll-out MeeGo, end up like RIM
...Nokia was doomed from the "start".
Success for hindsight:
A) Nokia licenses WP with the ability to develop with MS. They release a WP7 device with Galaxy S worthy specifications in 2010. MS made to give tens of millions to port over Applications. Nokia allowed to distinguish itself from other WP vendors. Less investment, shared treasures.
B) Nokia decides to differentiate by skinning Android (mixture of MIUI, RIM, iOS). Makes the best hardware and doesn't go for the "cokc measuring contest" with SoC's. Puts full-weight behind developer friendly and marketing. Converts current success to a new medium.
C) Nokia pushes out a Galaxy S worthy specifications with SwipeUI in competition with Samsung and Apple's iPhone 4. Throws its wealth at rapid development and maturation, and tens of millions into getting Applications. Struggles until 2012 but becomes profitable and has a nice proposition of moving its ecosystem into tablets, laptops, TV and home console (and PSP competitor). Nokia transforms with the industry, where it becomes a "self made man" like the industry-leading Apple.
Excuse my language but... **** YOU ELOP AND NOKIA BoD!!!
http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aAYdV9d_460s_v2.jpg
Hahaha..
Brilliant
C) Follows through with current plans. Roll-out MeeGo, end up like RIM
...Nokia was doomed from the "start".
Yeah right.
<honestly and without any sarcasm>
I'm in awe of Ballmer and Elop. This was one the most brilliantly executed corporate takeovers in the whole history of capitalism.
This should be taught in business schools around the world for decades to come. Flawless excution.
http://greatreader.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/25ad8-slow_clap1.gif
hardy_magnus
2013-09-03, 10:44
now a new word "elop" will be added to dictionary meaning backstabbing bit*h, a trojan.
Just to make couple of things clear.
Microsoft bought Nokia's Devices & Services. So in revenue MS bought half of Nokia. The part that isn't making any profit.
Nokia keeps NSN, HERE and Advanced Technologies. What is Advanced Technologies?
Our Advanced Technologies business will build on several of Nokia’s current CTO and Intellectual Property Rights activities.Advanced Technologies will explore new business opportunities through advanced research, development and concept products in areas such as connectivity, sensing and material technologies, as well as web and cloud technologies. At the same time, Advanced Technologies plans to continue to build Nokia’s patent portfolio from this innovation and targets to expand its industry-leading technology licensing program, spanning technologies that enable mobility today and tomorrow.
Nokia did not sell its patents, it licensed them to MS for 10 years. Nokia got patent licenses from MS for HERE.
I think in general this is best news a while for all Maemo and Jolla fans. There is bound to be more Nokia fans joining Jolla. Might not be much, but still.
It also makes Nokia once again profitable company with quite a bit of cash and not attached to WP anymore.
Nokia jumping into smartphones might not happen soon, or not at all. I got a feeling Advanced Technologies will serve for some devices in the future, even as they might not be smartphones.
Nokia jumping into smartphones might not happen soon, or not at all. I got a feeling Advanced Technologies will serve for some devices in the future, even as they might not be smartphones.
Certainly not soon, since the deal made spesificly prohibits Nokia from making any phones until 2016.
But overall I agree with you. This was the best realistic solution for Nokia in 2013.
I suppose that it's natural for me, as a finn, to think about how many times Nokia has reinvented itself during it's history. I guess this deal gives small hope of something rising from the ashes. The realist in me just thinks that too much was destroyed, too many gifted people lost, too many technolgies haxed and on the whole the spirit of Nokia crushed during the last few years. Wait and see, but not holding my breath.
Nokia is now basicly an Ericcson. How Sweden and Finland went from dominating the whole mobile into being peripheral part of it so quickly... well another thing for business schools to think about.
Certainly not soon, since the deal made spesificly prohibits Nokia from making any phones until 2016.
But overall I agree with you. This was the best realistic solution for Nokia in 2013.
I suppose that it's natural for me, as a finn, to think about how many times Nokia has reinvented itself during it's history. I guess this deal gives small hope of something rising from the ashes. The realist in me just thinks that too much was destroyed, too many gifted people lost, too many technolgies haxed and on the whole the spirit of Nokia crushed during the last few years. Wait and see, but not holding my breath.
Nokia is now basicly an Ericcson. How Sweden and Finland went from dominating the whole mobile into being peripheral part of it so quickly... well another thing for business schools to think about.
Nokia is indeed pretty much exactly like Ericsson. Imo most surprising part was that Nokia kept HERE. In a way its kind if illogical part to keep for a company that would only aim to be network and engineering house.
My understanding was that Nokia is restricted to use the Nokia branding on their products till 2016. Though nothing stops them for making smartphones in general.
I can see Advanced Technologies gearing for something totally different than pure smartphones. That said as long as they don't suddenly buy Jolla, we will be waiting for 2 years for the very least before any hardware. Again, if that's to even happen.
Microsoft has agreed to a 10 year license arrangement with Nokia to use the Nokia brand on current Mobile Phones products. Nokia will continue to own and maintain the Nokia brand. Under the terms of the transaction, Microsoft has agreed to a 10 year license arrangement with Nokia to use the Nokia brand on current and subsequently developed products based on the Series 30 and Series 40 operating systems. Upon the closing of the transaction, Nokia would be restricted from licensing the Nokia brand for use in connection with mobile device sales for 30 months and from using the Nokia brand on Nokia’s own mobile devices until December 31, 2015.
Via http://press.nokia.fi/2013/09/03/nokia-myy-devices-services-liiketoimintansa-microsoftille-kteiskauppana-toteutettavassa-jrjestelyss-jonka-arvo-on-544-miljardia-euroa/
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 12:03
It all makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Ballmer is retiring and they had to keep Nokia manufacturing phones for them until others jump on the wp8 bandwagon. Nokia board engineered it all well and got rid of many headaches.
Now, what's the possibility of buying Jolla by Nokia?
Anyone knows the details of Nokia's non-competition agreement with M$ in his deal.
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 12:08
I am curious what the phones will be called. They are bound to change the name too.
Now, the US is now meaningfully conquering the mobile market (hardware and software) after lagging behind for quite some years....
It all makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Ballmer is retiring and they had to keep Nokia manufacturing phones for them
Very true. Without this smart move Nokia would sure have slipped thru their greasy fingers...
until others jump on the wp8 bandwagon.
And that will happen like.... ...well, NEVER.
No sane company will risk it all playing bedmates with MS ever again. Or if they do, they sure deserve the fate they get!
Nokia board engineered it all well and got rid of many headaches.
Again the greedy capitalists played their dirty games and guess who got thrown the gnawed bones... :(
I am curious what the phones will be called. They are bound to change the name too.
And why should they do that?
AFAIK the Lumia brand was created for this purpose only, to differentiate from Nokia and fade that brand to the background.
And why should they do that?
AFAIK the Lumia brand was created for this purpose only, to differentiate from Nokia and fade that brand to the background.
Lumia is the name (an old word) of a prostitute, so the name was very proper for Nokia phones after it agreed to be a slave for Microsoft on the palindromic day 1102-2011.
Now, what would one call a prostitute who has found a steady sugar daddy for herself? From that universe I would seek the new names for the M$WP-phones.
Not really. When was the last time you saw any innovations come from MS?
They are pretty good at this acquire and destroy business but cannot hold on to HW business.
didn't i just say they are bad at commercializing it??? you are just confirming what i said.
Not really. Or else they would not have fscked up their OS business so bad they fell into MS's gentle lap.
i disagree. who understands mobile channel partners better? nokia or microsoft? who understands ARPU better? etc. by microsoft's own admission, they wanted nokia because nokia had all the expertise in this area and microsoft didn't. just because nokia understands it better doesn't mean they executed it better. dig a little and you will remember why nokia died.
Not really. They are just forcing themselves on corporate environment by sheer force and through incapability of managers in general to understand tehcnical matters. my god.......if technical matters is all that matters, the world would be very different!
anyway, we shall see what happens next. :)
youmeego
2013-09-03, 15:05
so pureview is owned by microsoft or nokia? and will we see pureview pro on next microsoft lumia?
sixracer
2013-09-03, 15:27
Nokia will be sitting on close to $20B in cash after this deal. Their telecom infrastructure business is quite strong. They would have no trouble buying Alcatel-Lucent for $5-6B and consolidating the infrastructure business. Markets agree with 35% gain in stock.
Prediction: Nokia acquires Jolla in a year and reenters smart-phone business with Meego!
I dont care in whatever shape i get my jolla in. This abandon ship by nokia might favor them in the long run but its rather sad even so. I just curius in who owns meego harmattan now. They bought current devices or all. Could microsoft release a symbian if they wanted? I want to keep hope alive becouse for what i can see atleast meego swipe beats jollas ui big time. This dont say jollad aint good, just saying n9 still beats everything even today. I use android 4 the monent and hate it bigtime and i aint impresed by either play store apps or ios app store. They only have cooler games. Thats it really.
As i said i dont care who make my jolla phone, i just want it since it remind me of n9 but (hopefully) with better specs.
Nokia n9 is still today the only phone i have capable of more then eight hours heavy use.
so pureview is owned by microsoft or nokia? and will we see pureview pro on next microsoft lumia?
All of the patents are still owned by Nokia. The deal was to license Nokia patents to MS for 10 years.
I doubt Nokia would have any reason not to license PureView to MS. I also doubt Nokia's Advanced Technologies part includes Nokia's Tampere R&D team that is responsible of PureView.
Though who knows. I doubt we will get any detailed information on what Advanced Technologies really includes from old Nokia as far as manpower goes, if anything.
What is the market price for jolla? 20 million Euro? Why not buy it, nokia. start from scratch and give sailfish a real chance to make it.
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 16:30
NOKIA is not getting involved into mobile devices any more. Its over. They have no OS and gave the hardware to MS. Their focus will be different and for a good reason. The mobile market has matured to the point where only titans can compete, and minnows like Jolla can hope that titan will swallow them for a good penny. The battle was lost in 2007, the board brought Elop to sell them, he executed well, and the Finns got good cash.
now a new word "elop" will be added to dictionary meaning backstabbing bit*h, a trojan.
Technically a Trojan, but I'll still think of him as a Worm.
What is the market price for jolla? 20 million Euro? Why not buy it, nokia. start from scratch and give sailfish a real chance to make it.
That would be the best thing ever indeed.
Or actually the best scenario would be, WP sales start declining fast as Nokia brand disappears. Nokia keeps its ~ 20 billion dollar net cash reserves and takes profits from its patents and NSN.
Then come 2015, year after the MS Nokia deal is done, Nokia buys Jolla and 2016 releases first Nokia "Jolla" phone.
That would be pretty amazing, but that will be a long road away.
It all makes sense in the grand scheme of things. Ballmer is retiring and they had to keep Nokia manufacturing phones for them until others jump on the wp8 bandwagon. Nokia board engineered it all well and got rid of many headaches.
Its MS jumping now. No other OEM is touching that crap. Ok if somebody wants to sell their businses or end it, then maybe.
Wait... I have not read this from the links posted yet (been at work) but is Elop leaving? !!!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/03/technology/microsoft-gets-nokia-units-and-leader.html?_r=0
Is it really true
Wait... I have not read this from the links posted yet (been at work) but is Elop leaving? !!!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/03/technology/microsoft-gets-nokia-units-and-leader.html?_r=0
Is it really true
Actually he's sort of staying.
The thing he's staying at (Nokia devices & services) is moving to MS. He moves with it.
switch-hitter
2013-09-03, 17:54
My understanding was that Nokia is restricted to use the Nokia branding on their products till 2016. Though nothing stops them for making smartphones in generalActually, that's an interesting point. Apple do not manufacture their own hardware, they just subcontract that to companies like FoxConn.
Elop's actions have doomed NOKIA's feature phones to languish and die and Windows Phone has been such an abject failure it has quite possibly irreparably tarnished the NOKIA brand in smartphones too.
If NOKIA do have ambitions to get back to being a serious player in the smartphone arena they might just be better off taking Microsoft's cash and using that to start again completely free of the stinking pile of shite Elop has created.
Actually, that's an interesting point. Apple do not manufacture their own hardware, they just subcontract that to companies like FoxConn.
Elop's actions have doomed NOKIA's feature phones to languish and die and Windows Phone has been such an abject failure it has quite possibly irreparably tarnished the NOKIA brand in smartphones too.
If NOKIA do have ambitions to get back to being a serious player in the smartphone arena they might just be better off taking Microsoft's cash and using that to start again completely free of the stinking pile of shite Elop has created.
The handheld business has peeked. Nokia will never go back doing phones again. The future is in networks, TVs, streaming services, servers and has been so for some time already.
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 18:32
Wellll...if you look at it in a big picture, Olli-pekka presided over the largest stock drop, and it has been steadily dropping with Olli-Pekka and without him.......so the board decided to axe it.
panjgoori
2013-09-03, 18:47
is there any chances of rejection of this deal by regulatories ? or anyone else ? sorry if it sounds too noob.
The handheld business has peeked. Nokia will never go back doing phones again.
And yet Nokia keeps the patents and the research in that field. I'm not sure Nokia has given up on mobile. Maybe they're "waiting" until the market moves again.
Wellll...if you look at it in a big picture, Olli-pekka presided over the largest stock drop, and it has been steadily dropping with Olli-Pekka and without him.......so the board decided to axe it.If you'd click on the box for S&P 500 and the Dow you'd see greater market factors at work from 2007 until Elop took over. From then on NOK consistently lost value while the market was in rebound
is there any chances of rejection of this deal by regulatories ? or anyone else ? sorry if it sounds too noob.
Investors together can act and say price is too low..... Regulators, WP sorry Nokia sales are so low .....
Fatalist
2013-09-03, 19:01
<honestly and without any sarcasm>
I'm in awe of Ballmer and Elop. This was one the most brilliantly executed corporate takeovers in the whole history of capitalism.
This should be taught in business schools around the world for decades to come. Flawless excution.
I agree with you. That damn Elop, he was a trojan horse from the beginning until now... the end. He has never worked for Nokia, in fact only for Microsoft to destroy Nokia from inside. He and his stupid explanations about why Nokia decided to choose Windows Phone instead of Android or Android and Symbian / Maemo / Meego. Nokia was doomed and in the hands of Microsoft since this guy was named CEO of the company.
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 19:04
If you'd click on the box for S&P 500 and the Dow you'd see greater market factors at work from 2007 until Elop took over. From then on NOK consistently lost value while the market was in rebound
The chart clearly shows: NOKIA was on a downward slope before Elop. He could not reverse the drop. Actually it was his predecessor that presided over the largest drop in value.
i am curious what the phones will be called. They are bound to change the name too.
mo(c)kia ???
meemorph
2013-09-03, 19:51
It's a blues: Nobody knows you, when you're down and out.
Bye Nokia.
Proud to use the last prElop Nokia N9.
The end.
switch-hitter
2013-09-03, 20:20
Wellll...if you look at it in a big picture, Olli-pekka presided over the largest stock drop, and it has been steadily dropping with Olli-Pekka and without him.......so the board decided to axe it.Have you looked at NOKIA's accounts for the relevant time period to see the cause?
For example if you look at NOKIA's accounts for 2009 and 2010 it was NSN and NAVTEQ that were making the losses.
NSN made an operating loss of EUR 1.64 billion in 2009 and EUR 636 million in 2010.
NAVTEQ made an operating loss of 344 million in 2009 and 225 million in 2010.
Devices and services on the other hand made an operating profit of EUR 3.3 billion in 2009 and the same again in 2010.
If I look up NOKIA's accounts for the previous years what will I find, Lumiaman? Are you just giving us cherry picked snippets you've found that happen to support your prejudiced position? My bet is that you are.
The chart clearly shows: NOKIA was on a downward slope before Elop. He could not reverse the drop. Actually it was his predecessor that presided over the largest drop in value.
Notice Your new name is Microsoftman. Maybe You like it?
There is MS forums, bye...
switch-hitter
2013-09-03, 20:34
Lumia is the name (an old word) of a prostitute
Notice Your new name is Microsoftman. Maybe You like it?Prostituteman?
And yet Nokia keeps the patents and the research in that field. I'm not sure Nokia has given up on mobile. Maybe they're "waiting" until the market moves again.
Quite conspiratorial idea I had recently: with the HTC-Jolla rumours (China supposedly declaring in March overreliability on Google/Apple/or any US company for that matter being bad, Jolla aiming for China from Nov last year and now Snowden revelations kickstarting/fueling such thinking), what if this is just the tip of an iceberg? If EU bans ios/android/wp from governmental institutions and decides to invest in US-spying-free platform? It will have to be opensource (well, doesn't have to be, but seeing how developing a whole platform from start is a few years long process and possible backdoors planted as sloppy code with all the hacker competitions seems quite easy/likely, having the whole populace being able to review code vs appointed body seems to be the only way), it will have to be EU based, we might just see Nokia revival. Of course Jolla could grab that anti-US market, now that only US based and south-korean with huge ties to defense department companies are left. US spying scandal could kickstart a mobile revolution
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 20:42
Have you looked at NOKIA's accounts for the relevant time period to see the cause?
For example if you look at NOKIA's accounts for 2009 and 2010 it was NSN and NAVTEQ that were making the losses.
NSN made an operating loss of EUR 1.64 billion in 2009 and EUR 636 million in 2010.
NAVTEQ made an operating loss of 344 million in 2009 and 225 million in 2010.
Devices and services on the other hand made an operating profit of EUR 3.3 billion in 2009 and the same again in 2010.
If I look up NOKIA's accounts for the previous years what will I find, Lumiaman? Are you just giving us cherry picked snippets you've found that happen to support your prejudiced position? My bet is that you are.
I am showing you a 10 year data for stocks, and you are telling me cherry picking????
What it shows is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. It shows that investors DID NOT HAVE FAITH in devices and services, no matter how much profit was made, because after 2007/2008, with iOS and Android marching on, investors fled to future platforms, not same old Symbian. Everyone knew that NOKIA lost the battle in 2007, and the stock slide shows nice association. Investors also didnt see a platform to replace it and it was on a steady decline, with some plateauing after Elop Lumias started showing some sign of life. Stop reading Tomi Ahooole crap blogs. He is partly the problem for pre-Elop NOKIA mess.
What do investors know? They're just gambling on whether there'll be a positive or negative announcement in the next 15 minutes.
Enough with their self-fulfiling prophecies. I'm sick of them.
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 20:49
Investors usually want a return on their investment. They are a smart bunch. Its capitalism after all.
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 21:15
Interesting data on Lumias:
Kantar Worldpanel - July 2013 Windows Phone Share by country
Germany: 8.8% (+2.6% YoY)
GB: 9.2% (+5% YoY)
France: 11% (+7.4% YoY)
Italy: 7.8% (-0.5% YoY)
Spain: 1.8% (+0.1% YoY)
USA: 3.5% (+0.5% YoY)
China: 2.4% (-2.2% YoY)
Australia: 7.4% (+2.4% YoY)
Mexico: 12.5% (+10.5% YoY)
The biggest and most impressive individual gains were seen in Mexico (12.5%) and France (11%) where double digit Windows Phone sales figures were finally reached.
is there any chances of rejection of this deal by regulatories ? or anyone else ? sorry if it sounds too noob.
I was thiking about that aswell, if the shareholders say the price is too low, nokia will not be sold... so the best scenario would be: Shareholders say no, then Microsoft goes angry and resign from the offer, and then they break all partnerships with nokia for OS, so the only thing which nokia would have is to go back on Meego or android... :) and we would be happy again :D (but this is never gonna happen) :(
www.rzr.online.fr
2013-09-03, 21:56
Interesting data on Lumias:
The biggest and most impressive individual gains were seen in Mexico (12.5%) and France (11%) where double digit Windows Phone sales figures were finally reached.
My sources are reporting for france :
http://linuxfr.org/sondages/quel-systeme-d-exploitation-mobile-utilisez-vous
Android :
1829
(59.5 %)
iOS :
268
(8.7 %)
Symbian :
96
(3.1 %)
Meego :
76
(2.5 %)
Blackberry :
58
(1.9 %)
Windows Phone :
54
(1.8 %)
FirefoxOS :
52
(1.7 %)
WebOS :
13
(0.4 %)
Microsoft goes angry and resign from the offer, and then they break all partnerships with nokia for OS
:D Yeah, MS throws a chair at Nokia and decides it's from now on going with the 10% of the 3% they had. Sadly NOK has shitty negotiators it seems, with the whole WP market now being Nokia's, MS if it is seriously considering WP as a platform had a worse position in those discussions (and with the andoird-on-nokia-rant meme going just as strongly as unbreakable-brick meme, MS would just shoot themselves in the foot)
My sources are reporting for france :
It looks like a poll from 3076 voters, the statistics reported in mass media usually are based on a bit bigger group (but hey, bing translator on this site gave WP 50%, while google translate <3%, who would've thought)
Investors usually want a return on their investment. They are a smart bunch. Its capitalism after all.
Investors usually want a return on their investment as soon as possible
Not smart. Greedy.
switch-hitter
2013-09-03, 22:11
I am showing you a 10 year data for stocks, and you are telling me cherry picking???? What's your native language?
What it shows is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.I didn't say anything one way or the other, I like to look at the facts before reaching a conclusion. I simply questioned whether or not you really knew what had caused NOKIA's share price to drop during the time frame of the graph you linked to. The answer is obviously not.
mikecomputing
2013-09-03, 22:14
What do investors know? They're just gambling on whether there'll be a positive or negative announcement in the next 15 minutes.
Enough with their self-fulfiling prophecies. I'm sick of them.
so damn right!!!
Lumiaman
2013-09-03, 22:31
What's your native language?
I didn't say anything one way or the other, I like to look at the facts before reaching a conclusion. I simply questioned whether or not you really knew what had caused NOKIA's share price to drop during the time frame of the graph you linked to. The answer is obviously not.
And you clearly don't understand why the stock price kept falling despite devices and services doing well. I told you why, and you gave me a run down of who made profit and who didn't. Investors cared mostly about device and service division, and despite profit, the stock kept sliding down. Bursts your Symbian forever bubble.
This is betrayal. Nothing else to it.
youmeego
2013-09-04, 01:07
This is betrayal. Nothing else to it.
Nokia betrayed Symbian and Meego users and now Nokia Lumia users
Ok seriously guys. Who cares about "devices & services"?
Nokia is aiming for the next DISRUPTION! Remember? Nokia got rid of its phone business today like it got rid of the tire business decades ago. Small crumbs for the unworthy.
youmeego
2013-09-04, 01:28
Ok seriously guys. Who cares about "devices & services"?
Nokia is aiming for the next DISRUPTION! Remember? Nokia got rid of its phone business today like it got rid of the tire business decades ago. Small crumbs for the unworthy.
sorry to tell you that PureView patent is now owned by Microsoft, Nokia is done without this patent
sorry to tell you that PureView patent is now owned by Microsoft, Nokia is done without this patent
http://nooooooooooooooo.com/vader.jpg
Lumiaman
2013-09-04, 01:50
long live Nokia! time to unshackle from the past and go to the future!!
So wait... does this mean that Microsoft owns or has access to the Maemo trademark and libraries?
So if I buy a N9 now and it malfunctions after a year and ha half, does it mean that MS has to fix it? :D
So wait... does this mean that Microsoft owns or has access to the Maemo trademark and libraries?
http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/gates_borg.jpg
Resistance is futile.
snowboarder
2013-09-04, 02:47
long live Nokia! time to unshackle from the past and go to the future!!
Like I said...good riddance Nokia!! That pathetic offering from Redmond is total junk and they've peaked. The most they'll ever have is maybe 9%...if they're real lucky 10%.
Microsoft cannot compete unless people have no other alternatives...the dustbin of history proves this. Apple came out with the ipod, MS with the Zune. Apple came out with the Iphone, Google with Android and MS with the Kin. Vendors come out with tablets and MS has the Surface. Good grief...it's comical.
Let them have Eflop's Nokia. The half they bought is a total disaster and has been for the past 2 years anyway. They will do nothing with this purchase because MS's problem is they don't come out with things people really want. They create sub par crap and keep on pushing that crap after it's been turned down. They think this is the desktop and they can cram whatever they decide and people will just swallow because they don't know any better.
SB
Let them have Eflop's Nokia. The half they bought is a total disaster and has been for the past 2 years anyway. They will do nothing with this purchase because MS's problem is they don't come out with things people really want. They create sub par crap and keep on pushing that crap after it's been turned down. They think this is the desktop and they can cram whatever they decide and people will just swallow because they don't know any better.
SB
Exactly, like Jobs said: "The biggest problem about Microsoft is, that they don't have taste for things" so we can clearly see this in windows 8 pc, it's total failure, it seems to me like unfinished work... and the most sad is that Nokia went on such a low level, and now selling her name to microsoft at so low price...Anyway what nokia need is just a great product something which would shake the world, like Jobs said, the biggest and the best ideas are born in CHAOS, but looks like Nokia does not see this chaos to take it to own advantage... Nokia needs N9-01 and MeeGo 2.0! :D
so, Microsoft will be responsible for the Store next year? this could become interesting for Maemo/Meego and Symbian users...
willi6868
2013-09-04, 06:31
So will Microsoft sell our data to the NSA now...
Will they keep the MeeGo ''Support''till 2015 up or are they planning to destroy MeeGo with future updates?
I am just waiting for Jolla and their second preorder campaign now :D
So will Microsoft sell our data to the NSA now...
Will they keep the MeeGo ''Support''till 2015 up or are they planning to destroy MeeGo with future updates?
I am just waiting for Jolla and their second preorder campaign now :D
yes, in the next update (one from microsoft) will format our N9 and install windows on it
:p
Half-Life_4_Life
2013-09-04, 07:36
Then it will look just like a Lumia.:D
switch-hitter
2013-09-04, 07:37
And you clearly don't understand why the stock price kept falling despite devices and services doing well. I told you why, and you gave me a run down of who made profit and who didn't. Investors cared mostly about device and service division, and despite profit, the stock kept sliding down. Bursts your Symbian forever bubble.When Elop announced his WinCE Phone only strategy NOKIA's share price instantly fell and it continued to fall as did their sales, margins, profits and credit rating.
Microsoft has now bought the wreckage Elop created and they didn't even get the real prize - NOKIA's patents.
switch-hitter
2013-09-04, 08:03
So will Microsoft sell our data to the NSA now...Quite possibly so. And the Asha's browser connects to NOKIA's (presumably now Microsoft's) servers never directly to the end point. Even if it appears you are connected via https your data is actually unencrypted on their servers.
I think Jolla have a very good chance of success licensing Sailfish OS in China, Russia, Latin America, the Middle East and probably even Europe. The fact they are not North American is a very big selling point for them.
If they make Sailfish OS completely open source and they offer a good service including handling the integration of carrier services, OTA updates etc... they could have a very appealing package.
switch-hitter
2013-09-04, 08:10
sorry to tell you that PureView patent is now owned by Microsoft, Nokia is done without this patentAs I understand it it's only a slight variation of widely used technique anyway.
What a risky CEO to have.
Elop killed Boston Chicken. He killed Macromedia. He killed Nokia.
I really hope he won't be chosen to be CEO of Microsoft. It will leave the PC market in shambles when he kills Microsoft.
sorry to tell you that PureView patent is now owned by Microsoft, Nokia is done without this patent
As I understand it it's only a slight variation of widely used technique anyway.
You should know that PureView is just a marketing term, it's just hype :)
The technology patents behind it (and other real/questionable innovations) are only licensed to Microsoft for duration of 10 years, not sold. This means that MS can use the technologies for the duration if it so chooses, without shelling extra cash.
This means that Nokia can also sell licenses to any other willing parties or use the technologies itself.
Resistance is futile.
..if less then one ohm. (http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/60fd/) :)
hardy_magnus
2013-09-04, 09:32
According to some websites microsoft bought nokia becoz nokia was going to stop manufacturing windows phone as nokia was running out of cash and there were no profits . It could be a big blow to microsoft.
ste-phan
2013-09-04, 09:37
Quite conspiratorial idea I had recently: with the HTC-Jolla rumours (China supposedly declaring in March overreliability on Google/Apple/or any US company for that matter being bad, Jolla aiming for China from Nov last year and now Snowden revelations kickstarting/fueling such thinking), what if this is just the tip of an iceberg? If EU bans ios/android/wp from governmental institutions and decides to invest in US-spying-free platform? It will have to be opensource (well, doesn't have to be, but seeing how developing a whole platform from start is a few years long process and possible backdoors planted as sloppy code with all the hacker competitions seems quite easy/likely, having the whole populace being able to review code vs appointed body seems to be the only way), it will have to be EU based, we might just see Nokia revival. Of course Jolla could grab that anti-US market, now that only US based and south-korean with huge ties to defense department companies are left. US spying scandal could kickstart a mobile revolution
If EU bans ios/android/wp from governmental institutions and decides to invest in US-spying-free platform?
-->> I could agree with what you write above, let's check history on this particular line:
Europe has invested 11 millions in Symbian just before Elop killed it.
Symbeose stands for "Symbian -- the Embedded Operating System for Europe.
A few random headlines:
http://www.technewsworld.com/rsstory/72258.html?amp&
http://blog.iese.edu/faceit/2010/the-symbian-bail-out-or-how-the-european-union-throws-away-our-money/
Seen the news in this topic the pledge of Elop to support Symbian till 2016 now reads as: leave Symbian raped and infected with MS spyware as an lead out present.
http://www.fiercewireless.com/europe/story/nokias-elop-pledges-symbian-support-until-2016/2011-05-26
To be honest I stopped caring about the whole ideal smartphone concept realizing nobody would ever make it (you know the giant ugly brick, open Linux infected quad core , 2GB version of the N900) and there are forces on high levels actively preventing its concept to further develop for the masses.
We were so close to get the evergreen ever classic device of our dreams if Nokia could have held course against the hidden forces and pushed out one or two more generations of the NIT that also could call.
After 2011 and disappointment of the N9 which I considered more than anything like a demo case of the OS it contained, I took a step back in my expectations and got a nice point ant shoot camera in return thanks to an previously despised N8 that started to look not too bad and also my now loyal and great friend the Nokia 808.
I am not even waiting for my Jolla to arrive. (100 Euro prepurchased) as I know I will find myself thorn between the excels of the 808 and that flat square ugly copy of a generic smartphone with generic hardware and mediocre camera but with the greatest OS on earth (supposedly).
No I don't need that Smartphone anymore like the N900 created a need in 2009. Getting over an old love happens finally. Not considering the fact that I am still surfing with the N900 daily.
But MS kindly leave my Symbian and me in peace!!! I won't buy the Lumia or use MS service on Symbian as long as I have free choice. Even if it means to sell the 808.
According to some websites microsoft bought nokia becoz nokia was going to stop manufacturing windows phone as nokia was running out of cash and there were no profits . It could be a big blow to microsoft.
That was one of the possible reasons, yes.
Lumiaman
2013-09-04, 10:08
When Elop announced his WinCE Phone only strategy NOKIA's share price instantly fell and it continued to fall as did their sales, margins, profits and credit rating.
Microsoft has now bought the wreckage Elop created and they didn't even get the real prize - NOKIA's patents.
Look at the chart again. Stock was sliding down for years prior to Elop. Sorry to burst your bubble but your pre-Elop Nokia was full of crazy Tomi nuts and already sliding into obscurity. Elop executed what the intelligent board saw: a dysfunctional company unable to compete in the mobile space. I think that MS overpaid them. They are not worth much.
herpderp
2013-09-04, 10:24
People who worked at nokia said that around ~2005 their CEO on large all-hands meetings said many times that correct way to communicate between microcontrollers and CPU in phones is gzipped xml.
So there might be something to what Lumiaman is saying.
People who worked at nokia said that around ~2005 their CEO on large all-hands meetings said many times that correct way to communicate between microcontrollers and CPU in phones is gzipped xml.
I find that statement quite unlikely. Could you please point me to a source that could confirm this?
Around that time Nokia CEO was Jorma Ollila and I do not belive he ever took a view on device design details :D
So there might be something to what Lumiaman is saying.
I generally hold a view that management should be treated like cultivated mushrooms, kept in dark and fed s**t.
Conceptualization, specification and design are far too complicated issues as it is without letting management come in and muddle the things.
I have been laughing for about fifteen minutes now. Reason:
http://mikepohjola.wordpress.com/2013/09/03/dear-mr-nokia/
Well, maybe this is a good premise for "plan B" deployment.
Well, maybe this is a good premise for "plan B" deployment.
i guess, this actually was "plan B"...
sorry to tell you that PureView patent is now owned by Microsoft, Nokia is done without this patent
Nokia are non-exclusively licensing their patents to Microsoft. They retain ownership.
Lumiaman
2013-09-04, 13:22
According to some websites microsoft bought nokia becoz nokia was going to stop manufacturing windows phone as nokia was running out of cash and there were no profits . It could be a big blow to microsoft.
NOKIA became a necessity as the largest producer of WP devices. MS strategy is to get into mobile space by all means possible, they had to buy NOKIA so that they could control it. I wouldnt be surprised if they Blackberry too.
On the other hand, I suspect that good people will leave. Marko Antisaari is departing in November. That is a blow.
Nokia are non-exclusively licensing their patents to Microsoft. They retain ownership.
I really, really hope that this means that Nokia starts to license their best tech to everyone interested. Pureview cameras and native Here Maps also on non-WP phones, I would like that.
Next generation Sailfish phone with Pureview Pro and Qt Here Maps :D:D:D
Lumiaman is single-handedly redeeming himself in this post enough for me to consider removing him from my ignore list. :)
I agree with his point, I'd like see more focus about the several years pre-Elop where Nokia struggled to get traction with smart phones. I feel like this is when the battle was really lost, and I was as critical of Elop as anyone.
Sentimentalism aside for the lost Devices and Services arm of the business, Nokia got paid nicely to partner, got MSFT to bite on acquisition, got to unload that struggling part of the business, got out from beneath Microsoft's thumb (Elop) without losing much (naming rights for a few years?), retained their patents (without an exclusive license to MSFT?) AND retained the other core parts of the business.
As much frustration as I've had towards Nokia over the years, I think they made a great move to solve the struggling smartphone vendor issue (tho love my N9 til this day) and they used Elop/MSFT to do it (worst case in that scenario was Windows actually was successful, however unlikely).
Though I will say if they want to get back in the devices game, I don't know how I would feel if they tried to acquire Jolla, considering what the BOD chartered during the Nxxx days, but if that happened, maybe they could focus on it more and not have to worry about what to do with Symbian etc. I'd prefer Jolla to stay independent for the time being.
They already made the map applications for iOS and Android if i'm not mistaken, so could happen.
Why wouldn't they license to anybody that is interested?
They already made the map applications for iOS and Android if i'm not mistaken, so could happen.
I have not used those myself but my friends told me that both versions suck (no ofline mode etc.). I am not certain but I suppose that those versions are just a frontend for their web service for Here.
However, N9 Maps should be quite straightforward to port for example to Sailfish...
Why wouldn't they license to anybody that is interested?
I don't know the specifics about the contract. What does Nokia really keep? What is theirs to license to other companies? Is it even possible to license something like Pureview (who can manufacture a Pureview camera module?) which is a complicated technology?
Is it even possible to license something like Pureview (who can manufacture a Pureview camera module?) which is a complicated technology?
Now of course I cannot be absolutely sure but based on what I know about Nokia MoO the camera module is specified by Nokia but made by some subcontracting plant in China.
Nothing special there, nothing complicated, it's just a camera module.
There are some clever algorthms used in the image processing though, and those can propably be licensed to 3rd parties.
ste-phan
2013-09-04, 17:31
Nokia are non-exclusively licensing their patents to Microsoft. They retain ownership.
So far for the new European camera brand that Nokia could become.
Leica's and Hasselblad are way beyond me reach and I think Nokia could make some nice compact network enabled camera's together with Zeiss and their software pattents.
Ground Nikon and the likes are only beginning to explore is now given to MS to do with as they please (usually just destroy) ?
haider378
2013-09-04, 17:32
Microsoft, as the part of strategy, may acquire remaining parts of Nokia i.e patents, name or other services from time to time...
i want harmattan with pureview in one single device, thats all i ask. With that mix i'm ready to move on with my life :)
If EU bans ios/android/wp from governmental institutions and decides to invest in US-spying-free platform?
-->> I could agree with what you write above, let's check history on this particular line:
Europe has invested 11 millions in Symbian just before Elop killed it.
Symbeose stands for "Symbian -- the Embedded Operating System for Europe.
A few random headlines:
http://www.technewsworld.com/rsstory/72258.html?amp&
http://blog.iese.edu/faceit/2010/the-symbian-bail-out-or-how-the-european-union-throws-away-our-money/
Seen the news in this topic the pledge of Elop to support Symbian till 2016 now reads as: leave Symbian raped and infected with MS spyware as an lead out present.
Interesting. I wonder how quick this would revive after a single slide from Snowden with 'iOS/Android/WP' next to 'Direct access' (probably won't happen though as they are using carriers http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130901/23253224379/att-has-employees-embedded-govt-providing-near-realtime-searches-nearly-every-phone-call.shtml, sorry for OT but why noone came up with software scrambbler/encoder pgp like with public/private keys to avoid carrier sniffing is strange)
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-technology/windows-95-buys-nokia-3210-2013090479126
mikecomputing
2013-09-04, 19:40
i want harmattan with pureview in one single device, thats all i ask. With that mix i'm ready to move on with my life :)
You say this one day after Nokia has sold mobile division to Microsoft?
Seriously its tim e for people to stop dream when fact has been shown already...
mikecomputing
2013-09-04, 19:43
I really, really hope that this means that Nokia starts to license their best tech to everyone interested. Pureview cameras and native Here Maps also on non-WP phones, I would like that.
Next generation Sailfish phone with Pureview Pro and Qt Here Maps :D:D:D
will not happen.
You say this one day after Nokia has sold mobile division to Microsoft?
Seriously its tim e for people to stop dream when fact has been shown already...
There are rumours (not harmattan nor PV) that Nokia could restart another phone division without Lumia/Asha.
NOT TROLLING
Interesting. I wonder how quick this would revive after a single slide from Snowden with 'iOS/Android/WP' next to 'Direct access' (probably won't happen though as they are using carriers http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130901/23253224379/att-has-employees-embedded-govt-providing-near-realtime-searches-nearly-every-phone-call.shtml
Tapping calls on the network side is routine, and of course it's used in US on their carriers. Spying on europeans is more difficult for NSA since propably they cannot man EU carrier datacenters with their people (except in UK which is basically lapdog of the states)
Thus, there is real possibility that trojans on mobile devices are used against EU citizens.
sorry for OT but why noone came up with software scrambbler/encoder pgp like with public/private keys to avoid carrier sniffing is strange)
Oh it's been thought of already;
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1335369&postcount=12
mikecomputing
2013-09-04, 19:53
There are rumours (not harmattan nor PV) that Nokia could restart another phone division without Lumia/Asha.
NOT TROLLING
For got sake that will not happen. Do you think Microsoft bussiness people is stupid idiots or what?
Its over for got sake.
I know you are annoyed with Nokia, but chill buddy.
Nokia nokia nokia... bla bla :D
Nokia doesn't exist anymore, we know that. I'm telling what i listened
Symbian is not owned by MS, neither Harmy. And they are in different markets with Lumia now
... And now would be good time for Nokia to start licensing all their mobile solutions to all major phone manufacturers and/or OS companies out there. That is, if they still own all the phone-related patents, I think they do, if I've read the news correctly.
Samsung phones With Nokia Maps/41 mpix camera? I would do that to just to screw Microsoft. LICENSE (cheap?), get some money from the patents while you still can.
After all, after a few years all the patents will be obsolete as new technological innovations will come to replace the old innovations.
As a Finn, I'm pissed, but I did see this coming a long time ago... It seemed so obvious after the burning platform memo (& the consequent ditching of all Nokia's phone OS'ses [even the promising ones] and then going all in with Windows Phone strategy).
I personally never understood one bit why the WIndows Phone OS was chosen, the phone wasn't customisable at the least! And that's something the most customers seek from a phone. I'll never buy a phone I can't change a wallpaper to.
Now, If Nokia would only invest in Jolla... Though I see it unlikely. They might stay away from the phone business some time for now... if only to catch some breath after all this.
There are rumours (not harmattan nor PV) that Nokia could restart another phone division without Lumia/Asha.
NOT TROLLING
adding a reliable source to rumours makes them much more believable....
tortoisedoc
2013-09-04, 20:13
What it shows is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. It shows that investors DID NOT HAVE FAITH in devices and services, no matter how much profit was made, because after 2007/2008, with iOS and Android marching on, investors fled to future platforms, not same old Symbian. Everyone knew that NOKIA lost the battle in 2007, and the stock slide shows nice association. Investors also didnt see a platform to replace it and it was on a steady decline, with some plateauing after Elop Lumias started showing some sign of life. Stop reading Tomi Ahooole crap blogs. He is partly the problem for pre-Elop NOKIA mess.
I'm sorry but to disagree. Back in 2010 Nokia had ALL the right cards in their hands to counterfight Android AND EVEN iOS - as the extremely positive reviews on the N9 prooves. The fact that it epically failed (for reasons which we know) is the cause for the E/Flop evil. NOT MeeGo itself. Period.
I know you are annoyed with Nokia, but chill buddy.
Nokia nokia nokia... bla bla :D
Nokia doesn't exist anymore, we know that. I'm telling what i listened
Symbian is not owned by MS, neither Harmy. And they are in different markets with Lumia now
Sir, you are mistaken in more than one count here.
1.) Of course Nokia exists. Why do people keep on saying that, huh? The MS aquisition was only for the Devices branch.
What this means, is that Nokia sold everything related to the Mobile Phones (R&D, Manufacturing, Services...) but it retains NSN, Maps, IPR, New Technologies.
2.) Symbian is owned by MS now. And so is Harmattan. (what little is left of it) Just deal with it. It's not going to change.
And if you are going to beg for updates to a Linux-based device from Microsoft.... well there sure are some more difficult things in the world but I just cannot think of one now :D
Now, If Nokia would only invest in Jolla... Though I see it unlikely.
That would be a disaster. Jolla must stay independent.
What exactly did Microsoft get?
I've heard that most of the 'smart' people have been transferred to the network division a long time ago, and rest of the people have been laid off; Nokia's own factories have been shut down; maps division wasn't included in the deal; no patents were sold, just licensed. Microsoft got exclusive rights to Asha/Lumia brands and related design IP, and 32 000 employees. It seems that almost everything that was actually failing or dead weight, is now owned by Microsoft.
Part of the deal was that Nokia can't use 'Nokia' brand name in smart phones for 10 years. Why? Of course Microsoft is afraid (or knows) that Nokia could start a new smart phone division, and that is a big threat apparently. If Jolla can make a phone with 200 people, why wouldn't Nokia, with all their patents, after all? I don't think they will do it, but it's completely plausible.
TL;DR Nokia sold Elop to Microsoft for $7.2B ;)
Edit: The above 10 year deal was incorrect, actually Nokia can start using it's name on mobile devices in 2016.
^
Wrong, Nokia can use its brand for mobile products from 1. January 2016 onwards.
MS bought the ability to produce a wide range of MS branded smartphones and Nokia featurephones. They still have to find somebody who buys them of course.
Tapping calls on the network side is routine, and of course it's used in US on their carriers. Spying on europeans is more difficult for NSA since propably they cannot man EU carrier datacenters with their people (except in UK which is basically lapdog of the states)
Except some reports claim they get 80% of traffic even not touching US servers somehow logged. Or is EU somehow better than Mexico/Brazil in enforcing their 'laws' that apply to normal people vs presidents.
Thus, there is real possibility that trojans on mobile devices are used against EU citizens.
Trojans like Android/iOS/WP are their users' problem. We're thinking about FOSS solution with no Trojans built in into the drivers etc.
Oh it's been thought of already;
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1335369&postcount=12
Awesome, thanks. Still have to go through the pdf, but the rest of links from there seems to corroborate the fact no commercially available solution exists, just papers discussing theoretically how to achieve this (and this should be quite easy, unless they have direct access to your mic, screwing whole idea of encrypting, this shouldn't be a problem with open platform though). This should be built-in functionality in this day and age (unless like with PGP problems of exporting too much bit encryption out of US this is being destroyed by stasis of the world)
EDIT: skype of old comes to mind, ultra hard to reveng, decentralized, all communications between nodes encrypted, then from Snowden files we know some 6 months before being purchased by MS they join PRISM, now they are with centralized servers in US and they decrypt what they need ala kim dotcom, one can build a safe net, until $
switch-hitter
2013-09-04, 22:11
Look at the chart again. Stock was sliding down for years prior to Elop. Sorry to burst your bubble but your pre-Elop Nokia was full of crazy Tomi nuts and already sliding into obscurity. Elop executed what the intelligent board saw: a dysfunctional company unable to compete in the mobile space. I think that MS overpaid them. They are not worth much.The graph clearly indicates there are problems but it does not identify what the problems are. Failing to correctly understand what is wrong could result in disaster. For example, you might panic and appoint an inept CEO who implements a hopelessly flawed strategy that inevitably leads to your demise.
Anybody who had a smidgen of business sense knew Elop's strategy would fail, I would have rated its chance of success at <1%.
I have to confess though I'm surprised at how things have ended. I'm genuinely aghast Microsoft have parted with good money for the wreckage Elop has created and they haven't even got control of NOKIA's patents. It is the opposite of what I expected, I thought Elop would walk away from the wreckage having control of the patents. I've been giving him too much credit, maybe he really is just as thick as pig shite.
One of the other posters has suggested maybe NOKIA were just about to run out of money and the lack of support from any other manufacturer for Windows Phone meant Microsoft's hand was forced. If NOKIA died now so did Windows Phone. I guess that must be it. Maybe at that moment some bright spark in NOKIA took the opportunity to kick Elop in the balls - Microsoft have even bought the feature phone division which Elop has doomed to failure.
Right at the death it seems NOKIA have managed to snatch something from the fire. They live to fight another day.
Shocking!
http://readwrite.com/2013/09/04/microsoft-and-nokias-plan-to-shake-down-android-device-manufacturers
So wait... does this mean that Microsoft owns or has access to the Maemo trademark and libraries?
Well there is a bit of discrepancy between the two press releases. Nokia talks about only licensing its patents, nothing about selling.
Though Microsoft press release in a other hand mentions it bought 8500 "design patents" related to Lumia.
Nokia's camera boss already said on twitter yesterday that he and Tampere team will be moving under MS. Tampere team IS the camera center of Nokia and behind PureView, plus much more. So it would absolutely make sense PureView patents were not just licensed, but actually bought.
Nokia is seemingly keeping all those patents that it has been licensing so far to others as Nokia expects its patent money stream to be major business alongside NSN, that's naturally the largest part of old or current Nokia.
Though I do wonder what kind of locks MS has put to Nokia manufacturing phones right away. There's huge amount of details we wont ever know. Locking Nokia brand from mobile phones till 2016 is the most visible one. Even with the available cash, for Nokia it probably doesn't make much sense to jump into phones any time soon.
mikecomputing
2013-09-04, 23:33
What exactly did Microsoft get?
I've heard that most of the 'smart' people have been transferred to the network division a long time ago, and rest of the people have been laid off; Nokia's own factories have been shut down; maps division wasn't included in the deal; no patents were sold, just licensed. Microsoft got exclusive rights to Asha/Lumia brands and related design IP, and 32 000 employees. It seems that almost everything that was actually failing or dead weight, is now owned by Microsoft.
Part of the deal was that Nokia can't use 'Nokia' brand name in smart phones for 10 years. Why? Of course Microsoft is afraid (or knows) that Nokia could start a new smart phone division, and that is a big threat apparently. If Jolla can make a phone with 200 people, why wouldn't Nokia, with all their patents, after all? I don't think they will do it, but it's completely plausible.
TL;DR Nokia sold Elop to Microsoft for $7.2B ;)
Edit: The above 10 year deal was incorrect, actually Nokia can start using it's name on mobile devices in 2016.
They got the competent mobile HW/SW engineers means those who has been brainwashed by Microsoft propaganda since 2011 and not already has left the building...
Lumiaman
2013-09-05, 02:07
I'm sorry but to disagree. Back in 2010 Nokia had ALL the right cards in their hands to counterfight Android AND EVEN iOS - as the extremely positive reviews on the N9 prooves. The fact that it epically failed (for reasons which we know) is the cause for the E/Flop evil. NOT MeeGo itself. Period.
Look at the stock chart. Kept sliding down and down. Investors didnt buy it. Maybe few people believed in Meego dream, no one else did. I think that they had important components, but no leadership to unite it. the stock chart shows that there was n confidenc in Nokia for many years.
What ever your argument is, Lumiaman, Nokia is sold to Microsoft in the end and it happened under Elop's leadership. You talked about public perception, so that's the public perception. End of Story
Lumiaman
2013-09-05, 03:06
And Elop is back where he belongs. Lets see how well he does in the "mothership". He will be under real pressure to deliver now. MS spent too much on the devices and services unit.
snowboarder
2013-09-05, 03:39
Look at the stock chart. Kept sliding down and down. Investors didnt buy it. Maybe few people believed in Meego dream, no one else did. I think that they had important components, but no leadership to unite it. the stock chart shows that there was n confidenc in Nokia for many years.
No one can claim that Meego was a bust. It was never given a chance as the rug was pulled out from under it by the fat slob with his ridiculous "burning platform" memo. Not only that, but he made sure not to sell it in the most important markets. He wanted this to fail as that's what his master in Redmond told him to do.
Compare that with Windows Phone...it's been given over 2 years to shine and it's been the laughing stock of mobile OSs...and it's on sale worldwide.
SB
Lumiaman
2013-09-05, 03:42
Looks like Blackberry is heading the way of Nokia....
http://www.gsmarena.com/blackberrys_board_is_reportedly_pushing_for_quick_ sale__-news-6728.php
Looks like Blackberry is heading the way of Nokia....
http://www.gsmarena.com/blackberrys_board_is_reportedly_pushing_for_quick_ sale__-news-6728.php
I don't understand why people compare BB10 with MeeGo.. There's a huge difference between them.. MeeGo was extremely highly praised hardware and software-wise...
Nokia also has a better portfolio than BB.. Designs, PureView cameras, HD sound recording, HERE maps.. etc.. Those all could've been a huge hit with the much loved MeeGo... Not to mention the simplicity of Swipe UI, Qt (which was shared with Symbian and Meltimi)..
You can't compare BB to MeeGo and you can't also say MeeGo was gonna fail for sure because that's just a load of crap.
And don't mention the amount of apps because at the time when Nokia started with WP it also didn't have much apps..
tortoisedoc
2013-09-05, 07:08
Look at the stock chart. Kept sliding down and down. Investors didnt buy it. Maybe few people believed in Meego dream, no one else did. I think that they had important components, but no leadership to unite it. the stock chart shows that there was n confidenc in Nokia for many years.
Agreed on the missing leadership; which most likely was due to Nokia's unresponsiveness in the project management side of things.
Stock chart is one side of the story; sales numbers the other; and they were showing that nokia was going strong (back in 2010).
I cannot in all honesty find a reason for MeeGo *not* to have been an instant success; it was the iOS-non-clone-clone.
The reason why it failed? The sabotage (by E/Flop).
Remember, they did not market the N9 *at all*. They had to kill it to make sure it would NOT get sold!
Looks like Blackberry is heading the way of Nokia....
http://www.gsmarena.com/blackberrys_board_is_reportedly_pushing_for_quick_ sale__-news-6728.php
Blackberry is the next palm. Period.
They have even less activity on BB10 than N9.
EDIT : The proof that MeeGo could have been a success is right before our eyes (even tho we can't see it properly), and it is represented by the fact that not *once* Nokia gave a correct number of sold N9's. If it would have been a failure, I would not see any reason for them to report it immediatly and can the whole thing publically. Which in turn brings us back to the sales numbers; and a good reason to hide them : keep on dropping Nokia stock so that MS can buy it for cheap.
Sometimes I am wondering if this was just some kind of masterplan to get rid of Symbian and all the Symbian devs (with respect for them).
EDIT 2: or perhaps the explanation is much simpler and the current situation is just the consequence of two mistakes:
a) the meego mismanagement
b) the idiotic decision not to point strategically on MeeGo once it was ready but to go with WinPhone.
Lumiaman
2013-09-05, 17:21
I think you are a bit paranoid. The reason they didn't give the actual numbers is pretty obvious. They paled in comparison to iPhone or Samsung sales.
Elop is disgusting. Nokia own fault, settling for the less innovated OS and hiring a dimwit for a CEO. Nokia n9 could of been alot more then it was. Maemo/Meego could of been the future if moved right.
Oh well rip Nokia, you did well.
Elop is disgusting. Nokia own fault, settling for the less innovated OS and hiring a dimwit for a CEO. Nokia n9 could of been alot more then it was. Maemo/Meego could of been the future if moved right.
Oh well rip Nokia, you did well.
Elop is a genius! For the flawless execution of his plan with Microsoft! The true dimwits are Nokia BoD..
hardy_magnus
2013-09-05, 18:22
Elop is disgusting. Nokia own fault, settling for the less innovated OS and hiring a dimwit for a CEO. Nokia n9 could of been alot more then it was. Maemo/Meego could of been the future if moved right.
Oh well rip Nokia, you did well.
dont blame elop, he was just a messenger. It was a well planned stratergy exe-cuted by microsoft.
Lumiaman
2013-09-05, 18:31
Probably the best that happened to what was left of Devices and Services. At least they have a job with MS, otherwise NOKIA would have to let them all go.
Its clear Nokia wanted to sell phone busines after other manufacturers went to Google (instead working together) and they did see margins are going down. That was plan A.
It failed because even MS could not by the company that day. Plan B was to trim down and see if there is busines with MS. Did not work so back to plan A.
hate it, we may but i have a feeling this Nokia + MS marriage will actually be successful. maybe not successful enough to be #1 but definitely successful enough to hurt Apple and Google so that they feel pain.
The only way MS can make an impact is by extorting patent fees for obsolete and dubious "technology".
What is the market price for jolla? 20 million Euro? Why not buy it, nokia. start from scratch and give sailfish a real chance to make it.Nokia owning Jolla would probably be the 2nd quickest way to kill them (quickest would be if MS bought them). The best way Nokia can help Jolla is to license them useful technology, eg here, pureview.
Why would you license from Nokia? You're basically licensing from Microsoft sooner than later if they have their way. And who wants to be in bed with Microsoft other than Nokia at the moment?
At this rate, Nokia had to have been bought by Microsoft. Come next year, nobody will make a Windows Phone at all. Watch. LG has already pulled out, so have others. HTC is invariably next, then Samsung once Tizen hits. The rest will go with Android, BlackBerry will fade like Palm did, and Microsoft would have been sitting there with nobody to make their phones and no handset division of their own at the moment.
Jolla has yet to produce anything. Pinning my faith on a startup is rare these days. I'll apply faith when I see more to fulfill my curiosities; I say this despite pulling for them. I like the cut of their jib.
khan.orak
2013-09-06, 01:41
Has anyone looked at This (http://www.zdnet.com/nokia-is-dead-newkia-rises-from-its-ashes-7000020271/).
Newkia! :D
danramos
2013-09-06, 08:41
They got the competent mobile HW/SW engineers means those who has been brainwashed by Microsoft propaganda since 2011 and not already has left the building...
Are you sure they didn't end up with the ones who simply needed a job enough to just do what the Microsoft management wanted, not necessarily the smarted or most innovative things? After all.. Nokia didn't exactly *DO* Anything with the operating system--they just made the crappy hardware it ran on.
And Elop is back where he belongs. Lets see how well he does in the "mothership". He will be under real pressure to deliver now. MS spent too much on the devices and services unit.
Just like the time they spent too much on the devices and services company Danger Inc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_(company))? How did THAT turn out, by the way?
Its clear Nokia wanted to sell phone busines after other manufacturers went to Google (instead working together) and they did see margins are going down. That was plan A.
It failed because even MS could not by the company that day. Plan B was to trim down and see if there is busines with MS. Did not work so back to plan A.
Your plan B was actually Elop's plan A, remember? I seem to recall Elop stating that there WAS no plan B, so so much for your other theory. :P
Has anyone looked at This (http://www.zdnet.com/nokia-is-dead-newkia-rises-from-its-ashes-7000020271/).
Newkia! :D
Oh yay. I'll put MY faith in a parody company.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9xtw9yJ3w1rfkogxo1_250.gif
danramos
2013-09-06, 11:43
Oh yay. I'll put MY faith in a parody company.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9xtw9yJ3w1rfkogxo1_250.gif
On second thought, one could argue that that's what Nokia has been all along. Buh!
The gory details:
http://allthingsd.com/20130904/from-can-we-talk-to-a-coffee-table-mishap-the-inside-story-of-microsofts-nokia-purchase/
railroadmaster
2013-09-06, 14:02
The fall of Nokia reminds me of the Fall of Commodore or Atari a once great company that mass produced a product is turned into several small companies without a consistent platform and a brand that is passed around. The Symbian Based phones similar to mass produced Commodores like the 64 and Meego Devices similar to high end products like the Amiga. Also all that poor marketing they did of their technically superior products.
And Nintendo could be next:
http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/04/nintendont/
.... and after them Microsoft will be next and Apple will follow soon.
.... and after them Microsoft will be next and Apple will follow soon.
I'm not sure about that. If anything, it seems like MS is the cockroach of tech world that simply survives, while others rise and go down again. Money wise it will be a LONG time before MS would be in any kind of trouble. Nokia had plenty of net cash in 2008, but that's nothing compared to $68bn cash reserves of MS. It grew that reserve with 5bn just from the past 6 months.
That said I agree with the point. I can almost guarantee that Apple for example wont be in the great position it is now in 7 years time. Google is the company at the moment, but they have been rubbish at monetizing Android and cost of Android is likely going up.
In a weird way I'm kind of happy that Nokia is financially fine at the moment and the constant trouble of the company melting away is over. Just 17 years ago Nokia was not know about phones, over 40 years ago the company was really not knows about tech in general and the company it was 100 years ago had nothing to do with the company it is today. Only resemblance in the past over 100 years with the brand has been that it has multiple crisis, shed its non profitable parts countless of times and done something different.
And Nintendo could be next:
http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/04/nintendont/
That's just depressing read for somebody who grew up with Nintendo consoles.
tortoisedoc
2013-09-06, 17:50
I think you are a bit paranoid. The reason they didn't give the actual numbers is pretty obvious. They paled in comparison to iPhone or Samsung sales.
Paranoid, no. Still shocked by the sale of Nokia, yes.
You are talking about "selling not well"; explain this; how could the n9 sell well with the visibility Nokia had decided to give to it?
soryuuha
2013-09-06, 18:37
And Nintendo could be next:
http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/04/nintendont/
quite agree that nintendo.will be next, tho.im.big.fan.of.their.IPs..
Lumiaman
2013-09-06, 19:26
Paranoid, no. Still shocked by the sale of Nokia, yes.
You are talking about "selling not well"; explain this; how could the n9 sell well with the visibility Nokia had decided to give to it?
Because like BB10, it was a dead end.
Lumiaman
2013-09-06, 19:28
Paranoid, no. Still shocked by the sale of Nokia, yes.
You are talking about "selling not well"; explain this; how could the n9 sell well with the visibility Nokia had decided to give to it?
This is what happens with swipe UI....
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/03/for-blackberry-bad-news-in-the-microsoft-nokia-marriage/?src=recg
mikecomputing
2013-09-06, 19:37
dont blame elop, he was just a messenger. It was a well planned stratergy exe-cuted by microsoft.
Messenger? well then he is happy now getting even more money when he goes CEO at Microsoft....
So yes I blame him :mad:
mikecomputing
2013-09-06, 19:41
Why would you license from Nokia? You're basically licensing from Microsoft sooner than later if they have their way. And who wants to be in bed with Microsoft other than Nokia at the moment?
At this rate, Nokia had to have been bought by Microsoft. Come next year, nobody will make a Windows Phone at all. Watch. LG has already pulled out, so have others. HTC is invariably next, then Samsung once Tizen hits. The rest will go with Android, BlackBerry will fade like Palm did, and Microsoft would have been sitting there with nobody to make their phones and no handset division of their own at the moment.
Jolla has yet to produce anything. Pinning my faith on a startup is rare these days. I'll apply faith when I see more to fulfill my curiosities; I say this despite pulling for them. I like the cut of their jib.
So what Microsoft will get the money from Android anyway:
http://readwrite.com/2013/09/04/microsoft-and-nokias-plan-to-shake-down-android-device-manufacturers#awesm=~ogw4Hhhwwr658t
mikecomputing
2013-09-06, 19:44
Why would you license from Nokia? You're basically licensing from Microsoft sooner than later if they have their way. And who wants to be in bed with Microsoft other than Nokia at the moment?
At this rate, Nokia had to have been bought by Microsoft. Come next year, nobody will make a Windows Phone at all. Watch. LG has already pulled out, so have others. HTC is invariably next, then Samsung once Tizen hits. The rest will go with Android, BlackBerry will fade like Palm did, and Microsoft would have been sitting there with nobody to make their phones and no handset division of their own at the moment.
So what if WP has failed Microsoft don't care they will get theyr money anyway:
I am suprised no one has realised that you pay MS when run Android anyway :(
http://readwrite.com/2013/09/04/microsoft-and-nokias-plan-to-shake-down-android-device-manufacturers#awesm=~ogw4Hhhwwr658t
mikecomputing
2013-09-06, 19:46
Has anyone looked at This (http://www.zdnet.com/nokia-is-dead-newkia-rises-from-its-ashes-7000020271/).
Newkia! :D
Fokus on Android as anybody else == means ****ing *****s. If they want to success they have to be think different
as I stated so many times before: only who makes money on android is google, microsoft and samsung AFAIK...
mikecomputing
2013-09-06, 19:56
Are you sure they didn't end up with the ones who simply needed a job enough to just do what the Microsoft management wanted, not necessarily the smarted or most innovative things? After all.. Nokia didn't exactly *DO* Anything with the operating system--they just made the crappy hardware it ran on.
I dont call Nokias HW crap that stands for you. Also AFAIK Nokia did care about environment more than anyone else so far. And for me thats something that is possitive.
Second I think alot of the HW engineers dont give a **** what SW it runs on. So they may very well move to Microsoft without problem.
In software engineer side I may agree with you.
tortoisedoc
2013-09-06, 20:36
This is what happens with swipe UI....
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/03/for-blackberry-bad-news-in-the-microsoft-nokia-marriage/?src=recg
BB10 is not top notch, no issue there. And yes I have devved on it too. The only cool thing is that it has somewhat goot QT support (except QML).
Can you detail why you think N9 was a dead end?
And Nintendo could be next:
http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/04/nintendont/
It's so sad that it could actually happen. Nintendo do have the "we are so successful, we can do as we please" arrogance about them.
I do agree with the author to a point with nintendo tapping in to the mobile market. Any gamer with a smartphone has mupen or the like, this shows a hunger for people to play nintendo games on their phones. So why not create a nintendo shop and emu for phones?
And it is not like nintendo do not have a DD system already, this has been the way many asian countries have got their games since the days of the Famicom Kiosks.
Back on topic: m$ suckZ0r :p
Lumiaman
2013-09-06, 21:14
BB10 is not top notch, no issue there. And yes I have devved on it too. The only cool thing is that it has somewhat goot QT support (except QML).
Can you detail why you think N9 was a dead end?
N9? It was a disaster. Didnt come close to the leaders in the field. Second tier device. Not smooth, horrible email client, froze, uneven hardware quality, no ecosystem.
Can you detail why you think N9 was a dead end?
What came after the N9?
That's the definition of a dead end. Is it not?
tortoisedoc
2013-09-07, 05:23
What came after the N9?
That's the definition of a dead end. Is it not?
After N9 came winPhone - which was sold, so just another dead end, no? ;)
After N9 came winPhone - which was sold, so just another dead end, no? ;)
Pretty much.
danramos
2013-09-07, 12:03
The gory details:
http://allthingsd.com/20130904/from-can-we-talk-to-a-coffee-table-mishap-the-inside-story-of-microsofts-nokia-purchase/
Favorite lines of the article:
"After a complicated series of events, Ballmer had decided he was going to retire as Microsoft CEO, a move that the board agreed with, including its powerful chairman and co-founder Bill Gates."
I dont call Nokias HW crap that stands for you. Also AFAIK Nokia did care about environment more than anyone else so far. And for me thats something that is possitive.
Second I think alot of the HW engineers dont give a **** what SW it runs on. So they may very well move to Microsoft without problem.
In software engineer side I may agree with you.
No, that hardware was crappy and it was getting crappier and crappier. Note that the build quality had been going steadily downhill and that everything started to even LOOK the same on the hardware side. Worse, Microsoft demanded what he architecture should be so the Nokia hardware engineers weren't able to even build the hardware they would have wanted or could have excelled at even if they were good (which, once again, I have to think that the best engineers and designers HAD to be so frustrated that they'd been leaving alone the way--I certainly remember reading about many leaving along the time since the switch to the Windows mobile phone crap OS).
It's so sad that it could actually happen. Nintendo do have the "we are so successful, we can do as we please" arrogance about them.
Remember, the reason why the Sony Playstation even exists today was because Nintendo (in the 90's) refused to make a CD system add-on for the Super Famicom/SNES or make a system based on disc games. Sony turned around and made their OWN Super Nintendo CD add-on for disc based games and then when they realized what they'd done, turned around and made their own game console BASED on discs--VOILA, the Playstation was born to compete with Nintendo. Nintendo was arrogant enough to stick to their cartridge-based guns, tried to scam Silicon Graphics Inc (SGI) to make a MIPS-based custom CPU/GPU chip for their new console and released the Nintendo 64... and proceeded to lose a LOT of money on each console while making it expensive and difficult to release the larger CD-based third-party games for it.
Basically, this isn't the first time Nintendo's nearly gone out of business because of their arrogance. Much like I'd been saying about Nokia for years: They aren't listening to their customers and giving them what they want. There's where Nokia and Nintendo are eerily repeating the same mistakes lately.
tortoisedoc
2013-09-07, 15:58
Remember, the reason why the Sony Playstation even exists today was because Nintendo (in the 90's) refused to make a CD system add-on for the Super Famicom/SNES or make a system based on disc games. Sony turned around and made their OWN Super Nintendo CD add-on for disc based games and then when they realized what they'd done, turned around and made their own game console BASED on discs--VOILA, the Playstation was born to compete with Nintendo. Nintendo was arrogant enough to stick to their cartridge-based guns, tried to scam Silicon Graphics Inc (SGI) to make a MIPS-based custom CPU/GPU chip for their new console and released the Nintendo 64... and proceeded to lose a LOT of money on each console while making it expensive and difficult to release the larger CD-based third-party games for it.
Basically, this isn't the first time Nintendo's nearly gone out of business because of their arrogance. Much like I'd been saying about Nokia for years: They aren't listening to their customers and giving them what they want. There's where Nokia and Nintendo are eerily repeating the same mistakes lately.
Funny, I do not know but do you also see any resemblance in Jolla / NOKIA story here? ;)
panjgoori
2013-09-07, 18:44
Nokia was working on a tablet back in 2010 but elop killed at on day one he joined Nokia. i wonder what board of directors of Nokia were doing when Elop was killing Nokia.
http://mynokiablog.com/2013/09/06/insider-report-elop-canned-a-nokia-tabletereader-as-soon-as-he-became-ceo/
The last/only good phone manufacturer is dead. But, if I have understood good, Nokia keeps its patents and sells only the phone-making part of the company?
Nokia was working on a tablet back in 2010 but elop killed at on day one he joined Nokia. i wonder what board of directors of Nokia were doing when Elop was killing Nokia.
http://mynokiablog.com/2013/09/06/insider-report-elop-canned-a-nokia-tabletereader-as-soon-as-he-became-ceo/
What do you know about the tablet that tells us that the choice was wrong?
Samsung, that you could say it "quite" powerful at the moment said that it expects to sell under 1 million of its brand new Samsung Note 10.1's.
On the price category Nokia usually plays on a devices like tablets there's only one OS and brand that gathers everything. I honestly doubt Nokia's MeeGo or Windows tablet had made anything else than losses for the company.
Totally agree with Elop's choice.
Before somebody invents the tablet concept again, there's no point going against ipad on the +400 euros range.
The chart clearly shows: NOKIA was on a downward slope before Elop. He could not reverse the drop. Actually it was his predecessor that presided over the largest drop in value.
Not true. Nokia was making increasing profits before Elop started really his mole work as a Trojan Horse:
http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/04/nokia-profit-warning-again-here-is-what-you-need-to-know-why-it-is-actually-far-worse.html
http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/.a/6a00e0097e337c88330168e9f49eb2970c-pi
The stock share value was a different thing and was under manipulation by US funds (where NSA and Microsoft were behind)
Fidelity Magellan and other US funds cornered Nokia in the spring of 2010. Then in June Vanjoki was going to be the next CEO, but "the corner" forced Ollila to take Elop and Vanjoki was cancelled.
Then in the autumn of 2010, Magellan sold all its stocks away lowering the share price even lower helping Elop to reason Symbian and Meego must be killed and Nokia must start to be slave for Microsoft. (the diagram from Morningstar Direct)
Lumiaman
2013-09-07, 23:08
Not true. Nokia was making increasing profits before Elop started really his mole work as a Trojan Horse:
http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/04/nokia-profit-warning-again-here-is-what-you-need-to-know-why-it-is-actually-far-worse.html
http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/.a/6a00e0097e337c88330168e9f49eb2970c-pi
The stock share value was a different thing and was under manipulation by US funds (where NSA and Microsoft were behind)
Fidelity Magellan and other US funds cornered Nokia in the spring of 2010. Then in June Vanjoki was going to be the next CEO, but "the corner" forced Ollila to take Elop and Vanjoki was cancelled.
Then in the autumn of 2010, Magellan sold all its stocks away lowering the share price even lower helping Elop to reason Symbian and Meego must be killed and Nokia must start to be slave for Microsoft. (the diagram from Morningstar Direct)
Wow, we got a major conspiracy theory going on here. NSA and microsoft sabotaging NOKIA stock....its getting more ludicrous by the day. i gave you a comprehensive 10 year chart that shows decline since 2008, when Android and iOS were penetrating everywhere. Investors fled, and yes, he had to issue the memo to realign the dysfunctional divisions within devices and services arm. that is what you do. you tell everyone what the goal is where you need to go. no back stabbing.
Trojans like Android/iOS/WP are their users' problem. We're thinking about FOSS solution with no Trojans built in into the drivers etc.
I hope Jolla gets it right, FOSS all the way, but if not, Replicant Android is the better way to get possibly NSA-free operating system:
http://replicant.us/
For example for Android Samsung Galaxy S3:
http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/GalaxyS3
Only way to get NSA-free operating system, is to have 100% FOSS OS. Then there still is the hardware backdoors for NSA, but hopefully with a firewall settings those can be blocked.
danramos
2013-09-08, 07:41
Funny, I do not know but do you also see any resemblance in Jolla / NOKIA story here? ;)
To be honest, I see far more parallels to this story in the Danger Inc-Microsoft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_(company)) story than I see in the Nokia-Jolla story.
Nokia was working on a tablet back in 2010 but elop killed at on day one he joined Nokia. i wonder what board of directors of Nokia were doing when Elop was killing Nokia.
http://mynokiablog.com/2013/09/06/insider-report-elop-canned-a-nokia-tabletereader-as-soon-as-he-became-ceo/
We're left only trying to imagine how things might have been conducted (http://youtu.be/sm1Jyusyoqk).
I hope Jolla gets it right, FOSS all the way, but if not, Replicant Android is the better way to get possibly NSA-free operating system:
http://replicant.us/
For example for Android Samsung Galaxy S3:
http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/GalaxyS3
Only way to get NSA-free operating system, is to have 100% FOSS OS. Then there still is the hardware backdoors for NSA, but hopefully with a firewall settings those can be blocked.
You forgot services (Gmail, Maps, etc. Foursquare, your carrier's SMS and voicemails, etc.).
mikecomputing
2013-09-08, 08:23
BB10 is not top notch, no issue there. And yes I have devved on it too. The only cool thing is that it has somewhat goot QT support (except QML).
Can you detail why you think N9 was a dead end?
for got sake STOP FEED THE TROLL!
he will never stop repeating same bull all the time so no point discuss
danramos
2013-09-30, 09:16
So I'm guessing everything's been said on this, hmm?
So I'm guessing everything's been said on this, hmm?
Give it time. People are more upset about the $25 million dollar payout to Elop and his reason for not taking any less is due to his divorce - daddy gotta pay his baby in full with Nokia money or else (reverse pimping) - than to talk about how Microsoft bought Nokia because sooner than later nobody will make Windows Phone 8 (and higher) phones and thus... they can't complain or add more to this discussion quite yet.
Ballmer (force) retired. Elop (Nelson: "Ha ha") divorced. Jobs (and the US government) is dead. Nokia (they really tried) is no more.
What else needs to be added?
youmeego
2013-10-02, 00:15
jolla need to team up with nokia to produce pureview before Microsoft buy them
Lumiaman
2013-10-02, 01:42
This is the ecosystem pressure that Microsoft is hoping for to sell their devices:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/10/01/apple-delta-jeppesen-surface/?source=yahoo_quote
jolla need to team up with nokia to produce pureview before Microsoft buy them
Anything Nokia does now will be with Microsoft looking over their shoulder and waiting on the right time to either pounce on them to force them to pay royalties like they're currently doing to many Android device builders or they will try to swoop in (probably with Elop aka the Boston Chicken/Macromedia/Nokia Killer/Chief Executioner Officer) and remove anything they consider competition.
I wouldn't touch a Nokia backed investment if I were Jolla unless that contract was worded as tightly as Mrs. Elop divorce papers.
I still have "I've Had the Time of My Life" stuck in my head...
This is the ecosystem pressure that Microsoft is hoping for to sell their devices:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/10/01/apple-delta-jeppesen-surface/?source=yahoo_quote
That's a rather damning article. IT "in bed with Microsoft", "we fought hard for iPads"... not exactly ecosystem pressure as much as it seems to be a technology stance that's not currently deployable (Windows 8 version ready by next year) and the pilots feeling like they were forced to accept 11k Surface devices.
Don't get me wrong, I actually have a Surface RT, probably will get the Surface 2 Pro if Wacom finally delivers drivers for the Wacom Cintiq; but that's because I want two screens that I can design on. Nothing like replacing some of the iOS apps that I actually like and use.
But that article is rather hostile at the base of it all.
kjmackey
2013-10-02, 03:24
But that article is rather hostile at the base of it all.
And 11K devices isn't anything at all. Not to Microsoft.
Anything Nokia does now will be with Microsoft looking over their shoulder and waiting on the right time to either pounce on them to force them to pay royalties like they're currently doing to many Android device builders
The agreement gives away most of their IP (not all of it) in that division but 0 of their patents, so they can start sw/hw from scratch (or get it from elsewhere) using their patents, & in most cases MS can't touch them. But, aside from that they're best of buddies going forward, if Nokia ever gets back into that sector (which most pundits say is very unlikely for various reasons), it'll most likely be in close cooperation with MS. If MS is still in that game...
Don't get me wrong, I actually have a Surface RT, probably will get the Surface 2 Pro if Wacom finally delivers drivers for the Wacom Cintiq; but that's because I want two screens that I can design on. Nothing like replacing some of the iOS apps that I actually like and use.
I'll be deciding between a: Lumia 2520/Sirius, Surface 2, or Surface 2 Pro in a few mth, + maybe a new top-end Android tablet. "rubs hands"
danramos
2013-10-03, 09:36
Oh the irony... I found this in some treasure I had tucked away in my predictions bookmarks from the old, original 'Let's talk Nokia stock' thread:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1239622#post1239622
Christ. Nokia has been in the hands of a very few for as long as Nokia has existed. Ultimately they have the last word. They have done much more drastic things in the past than to change the OS on bloody phone.
You people got to stop trolling!!! Elop is hired to do a job, and he is doing it. Nokia will NOT run out of money. MS will NOT buy Nokia. There are no parasites, moles or other evilness involved.
This is what is going to happen:
Nokia will launch a WP8 Lumia PureView and become King
Jolla will launch a bug nest with no features, no ecosystem, and disappear after less than a year. (this wouldn't prevent me from getting a device though, if I can get hold of one. Will they even be sold outside China?)
I will be happy. You will continue to be cry babies blaming some obscure old lady for ganging up with Elop, exercising voodoo spells upon the Jolla.
HEY, SPECC! Are you still out there? :)
ooo the baiting game ....
please me too ..... I wanna play
:-)
rgds
HEY, SPECC! Are you still out there? :)
http://gerbick.com/images/popcorn.gif
danramos
2013-10-03, 10:42
ooo the baiting game ....
please me too ..... I wanna play
:-)
rgds
http://gerbick.com/images/popcorn.gif
Well, it's gotten too quiet here lately. Mind you, I realize this is a MAEMO forum and thus it's natural for it to be as quiet as the grave now, but still... let's at least TRY.. :) Besides, Specc was just so sure of his predictions while everyone was just so sure he was full of crap. Just wanted to see if he had any opinions, assuming he had the man-parts to stick around. :) Some citing of statistics and facts might even be in order this time around, I'd hope!
Wasn't Specc just a new post-ban username for the artist previously known as Ericcson?
thedead1440
2013-10-03, 11:09
Wasn't Specc just a new post-ban username for the artist previously known as Ericcson?
Indeed....
Lumiaman
2013-10-03, 11:16
I liked specc. A bit to intense at times but spot on when it came to fanboyism and distorted world view that few hold here.
Lumiaman
2013-10-03, 11:18
Anyways, MS is the only growing OS these days and I think they have a good product but that is not enough in this ultra competitive days. Jolla really has no chance whatsoever. It has no brand presence anywhere, is not even a blip on google trends and overall a leaderless bunch of not sure whos.
danramos
2013-10-04, 12:58
Wasn't Specc just a new post-ban username for the artist previously known as Ericcson?
Wow really? So... he picked a dying company's name, stood up for that dying company until it no longer existed, changed his name, this time sided with Elop and Lumia to make wildly incorrect predictions of their success and then slowly, quietly began to disappear again along with Nokia's Lumia brand and their popularity? Sucks to be so dedicated to a particular brand that can't deliver.
He was/is swedish.
Ericsson is just about the most swedish name around. Very possible that the original username had nothing to do with the Ericsson corporation. But yeah, he was pretty much the most hardcore Nokia fan ever. No matter what Nokia, the love and defense was never ending.
switch-hitter
2013-10-04, 13:51
Anyways, MS is the only growing OS these days
Android market share Q2 2012: 64%
Android market share Q2 2013: 79%
Isn't that growth?
I read just this morning that Android tablets had seen 240% growth YoY in Western Europe. iPads were down 9%.
Jolla really has no chance whatsoever. It has no brand presence anywhere, is not even a blip on google trendsAs Jolla's primary focus is China perhaps you should be checking Baidu (http://www.baidu.com), Qihoo So (http://www.so.com) or Sogou (http://www.sogou.com). Google is but a mere tiddler in China with about 4% market share.
Anyways, MS is the only growing OS these days
http://xkcd.com/1102/
mikecomputing
2013-10-04, 20:56
I actually start like lumiatroll
keep going in the thread, with your garbage, and kill TMO!
Lumiaman
2013-10-04, 21:03
Android market share Q2 2012: 64%
Android market share Q2 2013: 79%
Isn't that growth?
I read just this morning that Android tablets had seen 240% growth YoY in Western Europe. iPads were down 9%.
As Jolla's primary focus is China perhaps you should be checking Baidu (http://www.baidu.com), Qihoo So (http://www.so.com) or Sogou (http://www.sogou.com). Google is but a mere tiddler in China with about 4% market share.
Show me the trends of Jolla popularity there? You just gave me links to nothing.
Lumiaman
2013-10-04, 21:11
Awwwwww....its even trailing my dumb phone...Lumia 620
http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=jolla+phone+#q=jolla%20phone%2C%20lumia% 20620&cmpt=q
Not yet. The story haven't told the end yet. How successful will windows be and the history might be written by Microsoft.
switch-hitter
2013-10-04, 22:35
my dumb phone...Lumia 620I'm glad you've finally acknowledged Windows Phone devices are not real smartphones. That's progress.
Lumiaman
2013-10-05, 00:01
I'm glad you've finally acknowledged Windows Phone devices are not real smartphones. That's progress.
Believe it or not, that $200 phone is much smarter than N900 or N9, for which i payed much more than that.
Believe it or not, that $200 phone is much smarter than N900 or N9, for which i payed much more than that.
Watch your spelling young man. It's "paid".
He's middle aged, 2+- kids going into teen yrs IIRC.
switch-hitter
2013-10-05, 09:49
Believe it or not, that $200 phone is much smarter than N900 or N9Not.
Watch your spelling young man. It's "paid".I don't think English is his native language.
Not.
I don't think English is his native language.
He's American, of that I am quite sure. But of course there's also people in the USA for whom english is the second or third language...
Lumiaman
2013-10-05, 20:08
Not.
I don't think English is his native language.
It is smarter. Everything basic works flawless. Calendar and email sync, texts don't get mixed up. Got my basic apps. No need to mode to make it fluid or prevent freezes or reboots. And $200 only. Maemo and Harmattan are beta versions.
English is not my native language. That is correct. So is juiceme.
TMO was right.
Nokia didnt listen.
The world lost.
Lumiaman was wrong also. MS never got it (WinCE v1 - v8) working like people wanted. WP and W8 suck.
The justice is done, if MS in couple of years dies away. Keep boycotting Microsoft, and tell others about it. Should be easier after the NSA leaks to get people to switch to OSS (Linux, Libreoffice, Ekiga, ...) from Microsoft (Windows, MS Office, Skype, ...)
Anyways, MS is the only growing OS these days and I think they have a good product but that is not enough in this ultra competitive days. Jolla really has no chance whatsoever. It has no brand presence anywhere, is not even a blip on google trends and overall a leaderless bunch of not sure whos.
Who really cares about some trends? Looks like the purchase of the Jolla phone might depend on some stupid criteria.
mikecomputing
2013-10-06, 00:50
TMO was right.
Nokia didnt listen.
The world lost.
Lumiaman was wrong also. MS never got it (WinCE v1 - v8) working like people wanted. WP and W8 suck.
The justice is done, if MS in couple of years dies away. Keep boycotting Microsoft, and tell others about it. Should be easier after the NSA leaks to get people to switch to OSS (Linux, Libreoffice, Ekiga, ...) from Microsoft (Windows, MS Office, Skype, ...)
ROTFL your so damn naive, Microsoft will not die. Most people will continue use Windows even if they only use it for simple task like web surfing. Also the fact that linux cannot replace windows cause there is no XYZ apps needed for xyz bussiness(photoshop, cad etc). And btw. most people does not care about NSA. They will forget it as soon as media finds something else talk about.
Also Microsoft will start massive patent troll for real 2014. And WP will grow in european and Asia simply because of massive marketing FUD and massive lobbying. This will also happen on the HW side. Microsoft will make sure they get the drivers first with help of money. Microsoft will also make sure too lock bootloaders on ARM and so on. Just wait and see :(
I would not mind if Jolla took more of the market than WP does in europe. But that will not happen simply because they dont have the money. Microsoft has.
ROTFL your so damn naive, Microsoft will not die. The patent troll will begin for real 2014. And WP will grow in european and Asia simply because of massive marketing FUD and massive lobbying. This will also happen on the HW side. Microsoft will make sure they get the drivers first with help of money and lock bootloaders on ARM etc...
I would not mind if Jolla took more of the market than WP does in europe. But that will not happen simply because they dont have the money. Microsoft has.
Yeah Microsoft wont be going anywhere many, many years to come.
Just to give example, Microsoft has $68 billion net cash reserves outside US that it can't move back to US because of tax reasons. It has been looking some years now to put that money to use. Nokia buy is funded by that cash and it hardly even shows.
Let alone that they have had record profit year behind them.
Yeah Microsoft wont be going anywhere many, many years to come.
Just to give example, Microsoft has $68 billion net cash reserves outside US that it can't move back to US because of tax reasons. It has been looking some years now to put that money to use. Nokia buy is funded by that cash and it hardly even shows.
Wait... what? I know nothing of this. Any credible links?
Lumiaman
2013-10-06, 04:33
Wait... what? I know nothing of this. Any credible links?
Check this out :
http://ycharts.com/companies/MSFT/cash_on_hand
Wait... what? I know nothing of this. Any credible links?
http://qz.com/120616/microsoft-is-funding-its-nokia-acquisition-with-cash-it-kept-from-the-taxman/
danramos
2013-10-06, 05:04
http://qz.com/120616/microsoft-is-funding-its-nokia-acquisition-with-cash-it-kept-from-the-taxman/
Anybody surprised by this?
Lumiaman
2013-10-06, 05:15
No. They will buy their way to success.
Anybody surprised by this?
By what exactly?
I remember reading about it last year. Investors were rightly so pushing MS to do something with that cash.
I don't believe the cash reserves were directly linked to Nokia buy. The pile has been being build for years for tax reasons.
Anybody surprised by this?
After all of the uproar over what Apple was doing in regards to their cash stash they keep overseas (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74184.html); hell yes. Because not one soul said anything about this pertaining Microsoft but kept pointing out Apple only. I'm willing to believe this is more of the norm than not.
Oh well... Nokia got "bought". They still have 60+ Billion - let's see who's next.
danramos
2013-10-06, 11:18
By what exactly?
I remember reading about it last year. Investors were rightly so pushing MS to do something with that cash.
I don't believe the cash reserves were directly linked to Nokia buy. The pile has been being build for years for tax reasons.
I suppose you overlooked the part where they're offshore tax havens (ie. loophole style tax avoidance).
After all of the uproar over what Apple was doing in regards to their cash stash they keep overseas (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74184.html); hell yes. Because not one soul said anything about this pertaining Microsoft but kept pointing out Apple only. I'm willing to believe this is more of the norm than not.
Oh well... Nokia got "bought". They still have 60+ Billion - let's see who's next.
Do you think maybe Microsoft got a nice quiet pass on tax avoidance for giving the gov't a nice slick easy back-door way to monitor customers?
I think lumiaman comes from Greece. I could be wrong though...
Anybody knows if surface2 will have hdmi? Or will it be called Nokia lumia surface 2
switch-hitter
2013-10-06, 12:12
ROTFL your so damn naive, Microsoft will not die. Most people will continue use Windows even if they only use it for simple task like web surfing.More and more people are using devices like tablets for web surfing. Companies like Samsung and LG are building browsers into TVs. Tablet sales are rising whilst PC sales are falling, IDC predict tablets will overtake PCs this quarter.
In other programming forums I participate in there's currently lots of discussions about what's the best Linux distro to migrate to once Microsoft pulls support for XP. Windows is becoming less and less relevant.
Every Empire in history has fallen eventually.
And btw. most people does not care about NSA. They will forget it as soon as media finds something else talk about.I think you're wrong, the BRIC countries are even discussing building their own internet infrastructure circumventing USA and Europe.
I think lumiaman comes from Greece. I could be wrong though...
Anybody knows if surface2 will have hdmi? Or will it be called Nokia lumia surface 2
http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-au
Happy reading. N.B. there's Surface 2 & Surface 2 Pro, WinRT & Win8...
And no, there will be no Nokia name/branding used for what's a 100% MS product.
Nokia however is rumoured to be releasing their 1st & last WinRT tablet on the 22nd.
It's codenamed Sirius & rumoured to be called "Nokia 2520", IIRC Lumia isn't in the name.
/off-topic
mikecomputing
2013-10-06, 16:16
http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-au
Happy reading. N.B. there's Surface 2 & Surface 2 Pro, WinRT & Win8...
And no, there will be no Nokia name/branding used for what's a 100% MS product.
Nokia however is rumoured to be releasing their 1st & last WinRT tablet on the 22nd.
It's codenamed Sirius & rumoured to be called "Nokia 2520", IIRC Lumia isn't in the name.
Wonder if they will success with that tablet? I hope they fail as hell because they killed theyr own good tablet already :mad:
/off-topic
It's unfortunate they opted for a WinRT tablet, it would've been more interesting to me if they went with Win8.
I doubt I'll end-up wanting it more than the Surface 2 Pro or even the Surface 2, but, we have to wait & see.
/off-topic
Only way Nokia could sell those tablets even moderately, would be to leak (tor) step-by-step instructions how to install Cyanogen (http://www.cyanogenmod.org/about) or Replicant (http://replicant.us/about/) Android to it.
Well, they could at least do as well as the Surface... ;-)
They look good to me, I think I'll get lots of productivity out of mine, looking forward to comparing to other tablets.
/off-topic
Surface did ok after all. It's now an established brand. Sure, it has and will continue to cost but they are gaining market shares slowly.
If Apple could get an tablet or hybrid of air with osx that could kill surface.
vBulletin® v3.8.8, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.