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Is there a section to talk about Java ME? Apps, etc. (7)
to General by teroyk - 2 days, 1 hr ago - more...
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2008-07-20
, 12:54
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Posts: 71 |
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Joined on Jun 2008
@ Lee's Summit, MO, USA
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#122
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Originally Posted by brontide
The point is, Maemo is supposed to be OSS It is a downstream branch of Debian. Nokia chose to keep essential parts under NDA and just ignore people. I am not threatening a lawsuit, but the admission of the developers that native ogg support was promised yet never fulfilled Is grounds for legal action if one were so inclined.
Please point to one Nokia page where the specs of device are not fulfilled. Your unrealistic exceptions of the device are not grounds for a lawsuit.
Yes, I would say that there remains a large area where the device could do much better, but at least it's not Apple where they get to charge you for each feature they turn on in software
It was meant as a word of caution. If you have a determined enough user with enough money to pursue said legal action, they would most likely be successful in either gainig ogg support via DSP or a suitable resolution to the issue.
I don't have any intention of a lawsuit. or any other legal action. I do, however, have the intention of nagging. As sad as that sounds, it has essentially come down to that. Nokia keeps putting the issue off because there is not sufficient pressure to fix it.
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2008-07-20
, 12:56
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Posts: 71 |
Thanked: 6 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Lee's Summit, MO, USA
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#123
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Originally Posted by brontide
I could point you to the product page of the OMAP 2420, which would proxy as a proof that the specs were not fulfilled.
Please point to one Nokia page where the specs of device are not fulfilled. Your unrealistic exceptions of the device are not grounds for a lawsuit.
Yes, I would say that there remains a large area where the device could do much better, but at least it's not Apple where they get to charge you for each feature they turn on in software
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2008-07-20
, 13:46
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Posts: 19 |
Thanked: 12 times |
Joined on Feb 2008
@ Cologne, Germany
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#124
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Sorry, but I don't think this attitude helps here.
Should the N8x0 users (or customers, as you like to stress) be demanding regarding the hardware support? Maybe.
But it's no point starting a talk about lawsuits which you recognize as similar when everyone else in here seems (Disclaimer: English is not my native language, I only followed this thread and can of course only speak for myself) to be content with the current way the issue is handled: Using positive ("More features, better device") arguments vs. kind-of-lawsuit-threats from the community and (as far as I can tell) more and more open communication from Nokia.
Look at the wiki talk page link. It looks like there's some progress and almost certainly there's some awareness for this issue inside of Nokia (even if the right PHBs might need a management summary and some more pointers).
I for one (sorry for stealing the /. meme) am glad that the drivers issue is still discussed - which to me sounds like it's still possible that we'll see some official support in watever (NDA+blob, etc.) way.
Should the N8x0 users (or customers, as you like to stress) be demanding regarding the hardware support? Maybe.
But it's no point starting a talk about lawsuits which you recognize as similar when everyone else in here seems (Disclaimer: English is not my native language, I only followed this thread and can of course only speak for myself) to be content with the current way the issue is handled: Using positive ("More features, better device") arguments vs. kind-of-lawsuit-threats from the community and (as far as I can tell) more and more open communication from Nokia.
Look at the wiki talk page link. It looks like there's some progress and almost certainly there's some awareness for this issue inside of Nokia (even if the right PHBs might need a management summary and some more pointers).
I for one (sorry for stealing the /. meme) am glad that the drivers issue is still discussed - which to me sounds like it's still possible that we'll see some official support in watever (NDA+blob, etc.) way.
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2008-07-20
, 14:21
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Posts: 198 |
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Joined on Jan 2006
@ Helsinki, Finland
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#125
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Originally Posted by Mutiny32
You could and you would be laughable.
I could point you to the product page of the OMAP 2420, which would proxy as a proof that the specs were not fulfilled.
Like if I would claim that I can sue you because you are not making good use of your account on this forum and instead you are generating noise.
I have proof of many others who are actually contributing interesting discussions.
Why aren't you using your account in a similar way?
Now I feel emotionally damaged.
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2008-07-20
, 15:02
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Posts: 868 |
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Joined on Oct 2007
@ Capital District, NY, USA
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#126
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Originally Posted by Mutiny32
And Nokia could do the same thing. Both the on-chip LCD controller and the PowerVR chip do not technically support the 800x480 LCD used on the device. Nokia should not be held liable for every possible use of the hardware and had to make the decision as to what hardware they would and would not support in the device. So unless you are arguing that they should have also used a 640x480 screen I don't see what you are getting at.
I could point you to the product page of the OMAP 2420, which would proxy as a proof that the specs were not fulfilled.
I have some complaints about keeping some random portions of the stack closed on an "open" platform but that is not the argument you are making.
Choosing not to develop a product to the fullest != intentionally crippling a product.
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2008-07-21
, 00:46
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Posts: 71 |
Thanked: 6 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Lee's Summit, MO, USA
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#127
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Originally Posted by darklajid
Sorry, but I don't think this attitude helps here.
Should the N8x0 users (or customers, as you like to stress) be demanding regarding the hardware support? Maybe.
But it's no point starting a talk about lawsuits which you recognize as similar when everyone else in here seems (Disclaimer: English is not my native language, I only followed this thread and can of course only speak for myself) to be content with the current way the issue is handled: Using positive ("More features, better device") arguments vs. kind-of-lawsuit-threats from the community and (as far as I can tell) more and more open communication from Nokia.
Look at the wiki talk page link. It looks like there's some progress and almost certainly there's some awareness for this issue inside of Nokia (even if the right PHBs might need a management summary and some more pointers).
I for one (sorry for stealing the /. meme) am glad that the drivers issue is still discussed - which to me sounds like it's still possible that we'll see some official support in watever (NDA+blob, etc.) way.
This exactly what I'm trying to do. Make noise. Hold companies to their word (OGG) and push them to keep improving on a product that was obviously prematurely released. Yes, the OS updates are great, but most of the improvements are more like fixes and small, easy usability tweaks. No big feature upgrades to use dormant hardware, no true innovation on the front of the UI, just keeping up with the competition for now.
Take this example; GM made itself the largest car company in the word by doing one thing: innovating constantly. They continually tweaked designs, they constantly updated styles, and theyalways came out with newer and better products. The reason they are in trouble today? Complacency. In the mid-'70s through the early '00s, they just kind of floated along and kept up with the competition. That was a nearly fatal mistake. While they were twiddling their thumbs and selling the same designs with tiny changes for multitudes of years, foreign competitors were constantly innovating. At one point in the mid-'90s, they caught up. But they didn't stop innovating. Why abandon a model that caught GM? Why not go for the kill? So they did. GM finally saw their mistakes and had to scramble to at least keep afloat and they dumped everything they had into R&D. Only now, after they are no longer the world's car juggernaut, are we seeing them innovate, start to frequently tweak style, and crank out products that can compete.
My point is this: Nokia is taking a complacent approach to development on the N-series tablets because, so far, they dominate. But this won't be for long. Competitors saw this flaw and decided to take advantage of it. While not being a MID, the Eee PC is a good example. Now the MSI Wind is out there. Soon, there will be a lot of MIDs flooding the market with features that Nokia didn't capitalize on; even some that CAN be implementd but aren't.
So, like I said in another post, I'm stirring the pot. I don't like skin on my soup.
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2008-07-21
, 11:55
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Posts: 2,535 |
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Joined on Mar 2008
@ UK
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#128
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Originally Posted by Mutiny32
You keep mentioning OGG. I've been "in" the Internet Tablet community since about October 2005 and I've never seen any "promise" of Ogg support from Nokia. In fact, they've provided reasons why Ogg isn't supported.
This exactly what I'm trying to do. Make noise. Hold companies to their word (OGG)[...]/
Please supply URLs to statements about the provision of Ogg (which doesn't fall under your "the hardware's there, but they're not using it; waaaah!" argument as it's a software & legal issue).
No big feature upgrades to use dormant hardware, no true innovation on the front of the UI, just keeping up with the competition for now.
Take this example; [...]
Would you be rattling on about unfulfilled promises if you bought the saloon car? Even if the MPG ratings, CO2 emissions and 0-60 figures were widely published before you bought?
A company isn't negligent, or reneging on promises, if it uses common components across its portfolio of products if that results in a reduction of costs. Your argument about not using the current OMAP SoCs seems to boil down to "they paid for it, and I paid them. Why can't I have it? They should've used something cheaper". What is cheaper for the bulk quantities of these chips that Nokia is using? Arguing against a large company on the basis of cost isn't a coherent argument anyway: you don't know how much they pay for the chips, and they do.
My point is this: Nokia is taking a complacent approach to development on the N-series tablets because, so far, they dominate. But this won't be for long. Competitors saw this flaw and decided to take advantage of it. While not being a MID, the Eee PC is a good example. Now the MSI Wind is out there. Soon, there will be a lot of MIDs flooding the market with features that Nokia didn't capitalize on; even some that CAN be implementd but aren't.
Many of us are working to try and realise that marketability, user friendliness and ease-of-use on devices running Maemo. Generating a lot of heat and noise on this forum is not a way which will help.
You're obviously enthusiastic, why not identify some specific areas of concern and get involved in the detail of making it better?
Cheers,
Andrew
[1] ...and a car based analogy at that. The best kind :-)
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2008-07-21
, 13:22
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Posts: 3,841 |
Thanked: 1,079 times |
Joined on Nov 2006
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#129
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The thing about "making noise" is that there's also a thing called "Signal to Noise ratio", which I personally find more important.
I think everyone pretty much agree that it would be very nice to get all that hardware functional. The best way to get to that point is another story though. What Simon, lcuk and others have been working on seems to me much more useful than just making noise. As for the Verizon case, I believe it's a different issue: They buy fully functional phones from a vendor, then go on to disable functionality. They don't even get a discount for doing that afaik. The N8x0 story is quite different, I won't try to list it here, it should be obvious for anyone following this and earlier threads. In short, I agree with Mutiny32 about wanting the functionality, but I disagree with the means and the comparisions with e.g. Verizon.
I'll go back to lurking mode now.. (re. my initial comment about S/N ratio)
I think everyone pretty much agree that it would be very nice to get all that hardware functional. The best way to get to that point is another story though. What Simon, lcuk and others have been working on seems to me much more useful than just making noise. As for the Verizon case, I believe it's a different issue: They buy fully functional phones from a vendor, then go on to disable functionality. They don't even get a discount for doing that afaik. The N8x0 story is quite different, I won't try to list it here, it should be obvious for anyone following this and earlier threads. In short, I agree with Mutiny32 about wanting the functionality, but I disagree with the means and the comparisions with e.g. Verizon.
I'll go back to lurking mode now.. (re. my initial comment about S/N ratio)
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N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
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2008-07-21
, 13:46
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Posts: 1,635 |
Thanked: 1,816 times |
Joined on Apr 2008
@ Manchester, England
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#130
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Just a heads up people.
Whilst some have been bickering here it would seem real progress is being made behind the scenes.
The drivers justification page put together last week has been (and is still being) passed around Nokia, Ti and ImgTech.
The Discussion notes page now confirms nokia have unstable internal drivers available and there is discussion about how to turn these drivers into something we can use. https://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Drivers_...iolation_issue
I would say that is a major positive step foreword.
Thank you to everyone for helping with this, but the work is not finished yet
Whilst some have been bickering here it would seem real progress is being made behind the scenes.
The drivers justification page put together last week has been (and is still being) passed around Nokia, Ti and ImgTech.
The Discussion notes page now confirms nokia have unstable internal drivers available and there is discussion about how to turn these drivers into something we can use. https://wiki.maemo.org/Talk:Drivers_...iolation_issue
I would say that is a major positive step foreword.
Thank you to everyone for helping with this, but the work is not finished yet
Yes, I would say that there remains a large area where the device could do much better, but at least it's not Apple where they get to charge you for each feature they turn on in software