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2010-01-29
, 20:33
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Posts: 3,105 |
Thanked: 11,088 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
@ Mountain View (CA, USA)
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#482
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As said in my previous post, let's start talking in more detail about Maemo 6 after releasing the alpha SDK announced for this quarter. Please.
The excellent Bug Jars at http://www.octofish.net/bugjar/ reflect part of the work the Maemo team is doing on Maemo 5. Follow them every Monday if you are not doing so already. There is more for N900 users to come from Nokia and of course there is more for you to come from the Ovi Store and maemo.org Downloads.
And now sorry for the off-topic, I hope it helps to bring this thread (and others you are following) on topic:
"Generating noise" out of bugzilla/brainstorm resolutions and Talk discussions won't help the work of Nokia employees like me sharing information about unreleased software. Discussions degenerating in rants haven't helped anybody in any community I have been part of.
maemo.org is a community where people collaborate, including Nokia employees (in their Nokia role, on their own or both). Of course we can discuss and even argue with each other. As a member of this community I have been disagreeing with and thanking to plenty of contributors. Almost always there has been a big respect, and this is one of the greatest values of the Maemo community. This is how real communities work.
Now, everybody should have clear that this is not a customer care channel. If you want to exercise your customer rights or plainly complain as a Nokia customer there are several ways to do it. Ranting in maemo.org might actually count since Nokia actually listens, but it's probably the less efficient and more expensive way in terms of "community energy". If you understand what I mean.
Last edited by qgil; 2010-01-29 at 20:37.
The excellent Bug Jars at http://www.octofish.net/bugjar/ reflect part of the work the Maemo team is doing on Maemo 5. Follow them every Monday if you are not doing so already. There is more for N900 users to come from Nokia and of course there is more for you to come from the Ovi Store and maemo.org Downloads.
And now sorry for the off-topic, I hope it helps to bring this thread (and others you are following) on topic:
"Generating noise" out of bugzilla/brainstorm resolutions and Talk discussions won't help the work of Nokia employees like me sharing information about unreleased software. Discussions degenerating in rants haven't helped anybody in any community I have been part of.
maemo.org is a community where people collaborate, including Nokia employees (in their Nokia role, on their own or both). Of course we can discuss and even argue with each other. As a member of this community I have been disagreeing with and thanking to plenty of contributors. Almost always there has been a big respect, and this is one of the greatest values of the Maemo community. This is how real communities work.
Now, everybody should have clear that this is not a customer care channel. If you want to exercise your customer rights or plainly complain as a Nokia customer there are several ways to do it. Ranting in maemo.org might actually count since Nokia actually listens, but it's probably the less efficient and more expensive way in terms of "community energy". If you understand what I mean.
Last edited by qgil; 2010-01-29 at 20:37.
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2010-01-29
, 20:35
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Posts: 3,401 |
Thanked: 1,255 times |
Joined on Nov 2005
@ London, UK
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#483
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Originally Posted by VDVsx
The problem here is, and it's always been "the problem" is that we're mixing an open source community and a business. The business, from Nokias point of view, still seems to be run along the pre-2007/Symbian phone release model.
First the nature of Open Source communities is peaceful, we don't make rebellions, if we have problems we try to fix them, people with those intentions are not welcome at least from my side.
Since 2007 however, the tables were turned against Nokia yet nothing seems to have changed - Nokia devices/phones are still obsoleted as quickly as possible. That attitude is unsustainable, IMHO.
Originally Posted by VDVsx
The Fremantle/Harmattan situation is uncomfortably similar to OS2007 problem with no support for the 770. By the time anyone realised it wasn't going to be supported on the 770, it was too late in the development process. At best we ended up with the Hacker Edition which proved it would have been possible to support the 770 had it been a consideration earlier in the development cycle.
As for the maemo6 in the N900, I perfectly understand the situation, but you guys want that Nokia make a promise based in a unfinished product ? Well if I were a manager I would not do that, during the development phase a lot of things can change, even some blocker that prevents maemo6 in the N900 can appear, then Nokia will be lying to the community.
So when should we make noises about the potential lack of Harmattan support on N900? Wait until it's about to be released, only to be told "too late, sorry"? Or make our voices heard NOW? There should be few technical reasons why Harmattan cannot run on the N900 hardware - any new hardware in the Harmattan devices (eg. digital compass) would simply not be available on N900.
Other mobile device manufacturers manage this sort of multi-device support without any issues, so should Nokia.
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2010-01-29
, 20:38
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Posts: 3,319 |
Thanked: 5,610 times |
Joined on Aug 2008
@ Finland
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#484
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Originally Posted by cBeam
I always wonder how the semi-public bugzilla will be viewed by people no used to that sort of development model. I mean, would it be more acceptable to just not have a public bugzilla, not react to bugs and not have contact with some of the actual developers until the next version is out ? 'Cause thats pretty much what the competing platforms do. The 'forumization' of bugzilla is also a good indicator of this.
Conclusion: We do not know if / when the acknowledged bug will be fixed for the N900 or not. This is unacceptable.
__________________
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
Blogging about mobile linux - The Penguin Moves!
Maintainer of PyQt (see introduction and docs), AppWatch, QuickBrownFox, etc
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2010-01-29
, 20:38
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Posts: 119 |
Thanked: 124 times |
Joined on Jan 2010
@ Brazil
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#485
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Originally Posted by VDVsx
Sorry but there are facts that are not fixable by the community:
Below my personal opinion, as a community member:
First the nature of Open Source communities is peaceful, we don't make rebellions, if we have problems we try to fix them, people with those intentions are not welcome at least from my side.
......
I think Nokia already knows that we want maemo6 in the n900, so we should move along and stop the futurology and try to improve what we've now: Maemo5.
- Ovi Maps is not Open Source, and it is advertised by Nokia that N900 has navigation which is not true, it is an unfinished product... Telling that the community should make its own GPS software like Navit is just trying to get rid of their duties. If Nokia releases Ovi Maps for Maemo source code I think we get free navigation in a few weeks!!
- Most improvements that the community are suggesting for Maemo 5 are being pushed to Harmattan (and the most relevant ones I might add), so how can we not worry if Maemo6 will be available for N900?
- About being peaceful and not making rebellions, it seems to me like a hippie speech... everyone of us have to work somehow to make their living, and we gave a considerable money for our devices. Let's ask Nokia then if they will give us the next Maemo 6 device for free... I am sure they don't mind about money.
For instance, let's imagine you bought a new SUV car and realized that it didn't come with an advertised feature like 4x4 traction, and the seller tells you that they will only have 4x4 traction on the next year model, which will be launched in a few months, so I have to buy a new one if you want that. Would you pay someone to rebuild your car to add the 4x4 traction or demand that the seller deliver what was advertised? "Adding 4x4 traction" is not even feasible, therefore this example is very similar to the corrections that are being pushed to Maemo 6... and our brand new car will loose its value and get rusty...
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2010-01-29
, 20:40
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Posts: 65 |
Thanked: 43 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
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#486
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You do understand that people can create an endless list of enchantments? Did you go through that list of 37 bugs? If I would get to choose 37 improvements that they did for M5, I don't think it would contain many of those.
Most of them are far from major bugs. Only small improvements that you would think happen in hundreds between major platform upgrades. The only "major" classed bug has a workaround in the second comment.
Mac OSX development environment?
Binding maemo keys with their own keycodes?
Changing the device name?
We might get these things with M6, on the other hand, when M6 comes around the targets might be moved to M7 or rejected.
This is completely within my expectations of step 4 out of 5 with Maemo. Just as I bought the device. I did not buy step 4 that magically turns into step 5. Sure that would be nice bonus, but I am not going to expect that. For me N900 was by far the best thing out there and I really needed a new "phone". I am happy.
Most of them are far from major bugs. Only small improvements that you would think happen in hundreds between major platform upgrades. The only "major" classed bug has a workaround in the second comment.
Mac OSX development environment?
Binding maemo keys with their own keycodes?
Changing the device name?
We might get these things with M6, on the other hand, when M6 comes around the targets might be moved to M7 or rejected.
This is completely within my expectations of step 4 out of 5 with Maemo. Just as I bought the device. I did not buy step 4 that magically turns into step 5. Sure that would be nice bonus, but I am not going to expect that. For me N900 was by far the best thing out there and I really needed a new "phone". I am happy.
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2010-01-29
, 20:40
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Posts: 46 |
Thanked: 25 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ England and USA
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#487
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Originally Posted by M|ch
Yup ... and so it goes. Why on earth do you think the new device will be different when you know exactly how Nokia operates. It is quite reasonable to expect the same for the M6 device, two months after it hits the streets it too will be unsupported and obsolete.
when i bought the n96 i was happy with it for a week then they announced n97 WTF, then when n97 was launched good thing i didnt buy it , cuz who bought n97 got screwed, i was happy that i waited for the n900 before realisin this sh*t now.
Caveat emptor.
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2010-01-29
, 20:41
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Posts: 3,428 |
Thanked: 2,856 times |
Joined on Jul 2008
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#488
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Originally Posted by attila77
Ok.... and this is one of the many reasons why I support maemo and believe it to be the best mobile platform: it *is* the most open platform I've seen for these devices.
I always wonder how the semi-public bugzilla will be viewed by people no used to that sort of development model. I mean, would it be more acceptable to just not have a public bugzilla, not react to bugs and not have contact with some of the actual developers until the next version is out ? 'Cause thats pretty much what the competing platforms do. The 'forumization' of bugzilla is also a good indicator of this.
How, though, does that change the fact that there is a few bugs and enhancements already, this close to after the device release, being pushed off to the next one?
Anyway.. When I went to lunch I realized this entire debate was folly - it's not like we're going to *change* anything by ranting on Maemo.org... and then qgil went and verbalized my realization before I had a chance to.. so I think I'll just bow out now.
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2010-01-29
, 20:42
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Posts: 3,664 |
Thanked: 1,530 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
@ Hamilton, New Zealand
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#489
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the best answer is! "if nokia doesn't port maemo6 to N900, then this is my last NOKIA, period!" I'll go for Android 2.0 instead. At least google didn't abandon it's devices.
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2010-01-29
, 20:45
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#490
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I also want to clarify something about the appeals to the council, just to prevent possible misunderstandings:
We are your elected representatives. We willingly take heat from all directions in order to help bring you the best experience possible. If you guys only felt it like we do...
That said, we have very tiny teeth. We certainly can't dictate any terms to Nokia. And while I can empathize with the sentiment behind an en masse council resignation, I can tell you I won't participate-- simply because I see my role and goal as larger in scope than being an advocate for device continuity (although that is certainly important).
Now... do I like the term "Fixed in Harmattan"? Absolutely not. We can laugh now with the distance of time between us and past unpleasantries, to the point that "Fixed in Fremantle" makes a cute tee shirt slogan, BUT the community has made it clear this is a "fool me once" sort of thing. It can't happen again.
As to Maemo 6 on the N900... something I want? You bet. Something I think Nokia should strive for? Very much so. Will it be a dealbreaker for me personally if it doesn't happen? No, and I would be disingenuous to say otherwise. But I could see it as a dealbreaker for "my" constituency and so in that capacity I will campaign for it as much as I can.
The council can't deliver any ultimatums... but I have proposed we craft a statement of our intent, reflecting the will of this community. There's been some push back but we'll see how it plays out. If there is no consensus, *I* will deliver a statement that addresses the community members with whom I identify (ie, "my" constituency).
It's a side subject, but I see the council as failing miserably when it comes to periodic resolutions and statements of intent, philosophy, etc. I will try to drive more of that. You deserve no less than the most transparency and critical messages we can manage.
We are your elected representatives. We willingly take heat from all directions in order to help bring you the best experience possible. If you guys only felt it like we do...
That said, we have very tiny teeth. We certainly can't dictate any terms to Nokia. And while I can empathize with the sentiment behind an en masse council resignation, I can tell you I won't participate-- simply because I see my role and goal as larger in scope than being an advocate for device continuity (although that is certainly important).
Now... do I like the term "Fixed in Harmattan"? Absolutely not. We can laugh now with the distance of time between us and past unpleasantries, to the point that "Fixed in Fremantle" makes a cute tee shirt slogan, BUT the community has made it clear this is a "fool me once" sort of thing. It can't happen again.
As to Maemo 6 on the N900... something I want? You bet. Something I think Nokia should strive for? Very much so. Will it be a dealbreaker for me personally if it doesn't happen? No, and I would be disingenuous to say otherwise. But I could see it as a dealbreaker for "my" constituency and so in that capacity I will campaign for it as much as I can.
The council can't deliver any ultimatums... but I have proposed we craft a statement of our intent, reflecting the will of this community. There's been some push back but we'll see how it plays out. If there is no consensus, *I* will deliver a statement that addresses the community members with whom I identify (ie, "my" constituency).
It's a side subject, but I see the council as failing miserably when it comes to periodic resolutions and statements of intent, philosophy, etc. I will try to drive more of that. You deserve no less than the most transparency and critical messages we can manage.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
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Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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| Tags |
| compatibility, future, harmattan, harmattan is for new $$$, maemo, maemo 6, n900, speculation, upgrade |
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All times are GMT. The time now is 04:53.
However, depending on your search parameters,
sjgadsby and GeneralA would disagree with your numbers.
However, I think your search does include some they miss, such as ones that are not actually marked "fixed", but in the comments say "being considered for harmattan" and/or have the milestone for Harmattan.
If I've helped you or you use any of my packages feel free to help me out.
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pyRadio - Pandora Radio on your N900, N810 or N800!