Would you miss the Council if it was gone? - Page 15 - maemo.org

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	Jaffa	2010-08-11 , 18:41
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#141

Originally Posted by Bec

Unfortunately the council are the ones that have the closest contact with the power users and what they feel should be done.

Indeed. But on a consumer issue, why do you think the opinions of a very very small subset of consumers is relevant?

You are the only voice organized enough and the only bridge between the community and nokia.

Nokia contend that there are many more appropriate bridges between the consumers and Nokia.

If you won't do the right thing and try to bridge the gap things will only get worse.

You have to try at least. You're the only ones who can feel the pulse of the community and express it's thoughts clearly. Nokia has to get that users here really expect the same support as all other brands(eg Flash 10.1.) How would it be if Google would say froyo is only available for new devices? The perfect way to alienate customers.

As has been said, Nokia are very much aware of our position on their commercial decision to not offer consumer support for MeeGo(-Harmattan) via their official support channels.

As has been said, Nokia are providing resources to develop the N900 adaptation layer (and, in their spare team, the same people are working on the N8x0 adaptation layer). Of course, anyone can chip in - and, indeed, that's necessary. The lack of community engagement didn't help the Hacker Editions or Mer.

MeeGo is already available for the N900. If the community engages in testing, coding, bug raising, bug fixing, documentation and in many other facets; it'll get better and could get to being a realistic day-to-day OS for the power-users and enthusiasts who are aware of it. It just won't get pushed by Nokia in the same way as PR1.2 (mmm, multi-message spam SMS)

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	cfh11	2010-08-11 , 18:51
	Posts: 1,062 \| Thanked: 961 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Boston, MA	#142

Originally Posted by Texrat

I only want to address the former vis-a-vis this community. No offense at all to Quim, but IF the council's role expanded, we would need engagement not just from community channels but technical, logistic, etc. The community wants these products to succeed, in general, and there's pent up desire to do help.

I personally want to help Nokia improve its customer engagement. I have the necessary knowledge and experience. And for a while I've been in the right place. Now, if other council members disagree and/or Nokia refuses then so be it. It's soon to be moot for me anyway...

100% agreed Texrat. The council's focus on developer issues is a logical and important place to start and build from the bottom up. However, shouldn't Nokia be equally concerned with the opinions of the early adopters? Who is going to help improve Meego from an end user perspective? Who will test all the apps? Who will wave the flag for Meego and help it become the commercial success Nokia desperately needs it to be?

I do believe the devs contribute far more to the community than I do - I can't thank them enough. But Nokia needs to understand that Maemo/Meego users are different from the rest of their customer base. For the most part, we get it. We are savvy enough in a technical and business sense to understand things that are not printed in the user manual. From a "prototype" perspective, n900 has to have been a huge success.

Now what needs to happen is honest two-way dialogue. And not just bureaucratic "open letter, official response" type stuff. Real dialogue like the the twitter convo with the Marketing VP (although unsuccessful it was a step in the right direction). IMHO, the council is the perfect vehicle to facilitate this. They can feel the pulse of the community and also have the ability to filter out the noise and keep dialogue productive.

Nokia has created this monster (tmo) and now needs to effectively harness its energy!

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Laughing Man	2010-08-11 , 18:52
Posts: 4,556 \| Thanked: 1,624 times \| Joined on Dec 2007	#143

Let me put it this way Bec. If the council did what you say they should do. maemo.org and the community release of Meego would grind slowly to a halt. And Nokia still wouldn't listen regarding Ovi Maps, Flash, whatever the heck you, me, or anyone complaining about their service wants.

It seems more beneifical to do something constructive and make the best of what you have rather than yell at a wall that doesn't budge. And Nokia's decision is the wall.

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"Meamo!" sounds like what Zorro would say to catherine zeta jones... after she slaps him for looking at her dirtily...

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lemmyslender	2010-08-11 , 18:53
Posts: 968 \| Thanked: 974 times \| Joined on Nov 2008 @ Ohio	#144

I am a consumer. There I said it. Arguing won't change that fact.

Judging by this thread (and many previous threads) it seems that many believe that this community isn't for me. Not that I will leave, as this is the best place to be for all things related to Maemo.

It's just sad to see this community fragmenting to pieces due to Nokia mis-management.

At any rate, I won't be voting in the next election as I believe that the council isn't supposed to be representing me. I do promise to keep the *****ing to a minimum thought.

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gerbick	2010-08-11 , 18:58
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Originally Posted by Jaffa

Odd choice that last one; firstly, I'm not sure what you mean - and most of my Maemo development is Python based; and secondly Nokia would say Maemo doesn't "support" Python: it's a community solution. So ask the PyMaemo team those questions!

I knew that that council just made an announcement about the Python support, thus used it in my aforesaid sentence.

The point remains though. In my statement, it shows how a consumer wants X, while the council seems to have made statements that support the developers, thus Y. It's not the same and that's where a lot of folks are confused.

To even simplify further - and NOT go down the whole PyQt, PyMaemo, PyGtk conversation because I'm talking as a consumer, not as a developer - the council supports the developer community it seems moreso than deal with customer grievances.

That definition was sorely lacking from my understanding of what y'all did.

I thought you guys had the ear of Nokia. We could, as a mixed community of developers and consumers, have a voice that would be amplified to Nokia.

That is not the case. And again, do not center your response around the whole Python portion of my prior response. That would be too myopic in my attempt to understand what the council can, cannot do.

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	Jaffa	2010-08-11 , 19:00
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender

I am a consumer. There I said it. Arguing won't change that fact.

We're all consumers. But there are a set of people who are helping each other (either by developing apps, testing apps, raising bugs, discussing apps, helping others work around issues, organising competitions, organising conferences & meet ups, ...). This is what a community is at its core: a set of people who are helping each other.

Most consumers (and, as has been pointed out, there's a number of users on maemo.org) don't transition into that community. I've got an account on scirocconet, but despite posting a few times I don't think of myself as part of the community. There is a shift at some point, but no-one has been able to define when it is. But then again, it's not actually that important when it does: it's not entirely black & white.

At any rate, I won't be voting in the next election as I believe that the council isn't supposed to be representing me. I do promise to keep the *****ing to a minimum thought.

If you don't vote, you can't complain. Personally, I think you're cutting off your nose to try and spite someone else, but - as I said above - that's not my problem.

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gerbick	2010-08-11 , 19:01
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Originally Posted by RevdKathy

Talking to the wrong wall is a waste of pixels. Smashing your fists on the wrong wall because the right wall remains a wall is moving you into psychotic territory.

Then care to define which wall people should be trying to talk to? Overly ambiguous and vague rhetoric with no direct solution nor answer is utterly bothersome. Simply put, supply the direction... it's sorely lacking.

It would be so good if this place had a little banner saying what it is and what it is not. So much of the hasle here is about misplaced expectation.

Council should put that in place, post haste.

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fatalsaint	2010-08-11 , 19:03
Posts: 3,428 \| Thanked: 2,856 times \| Joined on Jul 2008	#148

Originally Posted by lemmyslender

I am a consumer. There I said it. Arguing won't change that fact.

Judging by this thread (and many previous threads) it seems that many believe that this community isn't for me. Not that I will leave, as this is the best place to be for all things related to Maemo.

It's just sad to see this community fragmenting to pieces due to Nokia mis-management.

At any rate, I won't be voting in the next election as I believe that the council isn't supposed to be representing me. I do promise to keep the *****ing to a minimum thought.

I think you're misunderstanding... we are not fragmenting here. We are not saying you don't belong here.

We are saying that here is not the best place for you try and reach Nokia. Nokia has their own (ineffectual, sure) methods to reach them.

And to Bec, it is equally not the Council, or our, faults that Nokia's own feedback systems suck. Yet again something we can't do anything about...

I know there have been efforts, several times, to open communications directly to decision makers in Nokia and here.. but it never works. So it's not for lack of trying here. Even qgil, working at Nokia, has limits to what and who he can report to (and even what he can report back to us.)

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	danramos	2010-08-11 , 19:21
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#149

I'm kinda tiring (bored?) of this topic.

Why can't we all just get along?

I still think my way is the best way: Stop buying the Nokia stuff until they deliver something we ACTUALLY want? Vote with your dollars. Nokia is a beast of monetary consumption. Keep buying their half-baked cookies and they'll keep thinking it's top-notch and make more. If you stop, maybe THEN they'll finally start getting hunger pangs and ask, "WHYFOR YOU NO FEED ME NO MORE???" and pay attention.

Council or no, ultimately, your DOLLARS can make the difference.

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	Texrat	2010-08-11 , 19:21
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#150

Originally Posted by gerbick

Then care to define which wall people should be trying to talk to? Overly ambiguous and vague rhetoric with no direct solution nor answer is utterly bothersome. Simply put, supply the direction... it's sorely lacking.

Council should put that (mission banner) in place, post haste.

gerbick, that's unfair to snap at RevdKathy like that. The "wall" has been identified many, many times already, and it isn't here. Yelling at people here doesn't fix Nokia's infrastructure.

Yell at me specifically for providing a false impression of the council's defined scope. I'll take that.

As for the banner, any suggestions as to content, etc?

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Last edited by Texrat; 2010-08-11 at 19:23.