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chemist is offline chemist
2012-02-20 , 09:33
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#11
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post
The only user modding I can do is one-touch ban and clean... and given fahadj2003's typical behavior, it's tempting.

He'd better hope a super mod acts before I do.
done 1 2 3
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demolition is offline demolition
2012-02-20 , 12:37
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#12
Seems like a good idea: some clear goal setting and definition by a mixture of CSSU developers, as well as devoplers (?) from other maemo projects. Apart from anything else, advertising feature-freezes for a given release would be worthwhile. Then there's the fun task of raking through bugs and suggestions - all needs doing but if not managed outside the development itself, my small coding experience is, the drive to make something new can compound hidden errors and digress the main flow of the project.
 
SD69 is offline SD69
2012-02-20 , 13:41
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#13
Originally Posted by demolition View Post
Seems like a good idea: some clear goal setting and definition by a mixture of CSSU developers, as well as devoplers (?) from other maemo projects. Apart from anything else, advertising feature-freezes for a given release would be worthwhile. Then there's the fun task of raking through bugs and suggestions - all needs doing but if not managed outside the development itself, my small coding experience is, the drive to make something new can compound hidden errors and digress the main flow of the project.
True. I do wish we get more discussion of CSSU. My impression is that new features are pushed out by a small group of CSSU devs at their discretion and the challenge is communicating those features. The "management" has to have a light touch, I think organization or coordination are better descriptions.
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2012-02-20 , 13:52
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#14
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
What would a TSG do? We know that and I proposed a few examples. Jaffa questioned candidate eligibility, but ironically named two obvious candidates at the same time. Making a sensible and consistent set of architectural decisions? Well, that's sort of the point of the proposal.
I don't consider mentioning MAG & merlin1991 as "ironic". They're part of the "core devs" making decisions and doing work.

Is it an election or a selection? If the former, who can vote? If the latter, who decides? What if someone is (s)elected who can only point and say "do this"? The CSSU developers (and contributors in other ways) are volunteers.

Ask Pali about what happened in kp and if he would like to have had some of Council's authority to directly tell Nemein what to do. I hope this proposal, if adopted, would solve that kind of problem for CSSU.
Buzzword overload. What's "kp"?

MAG has already been granted power by (previous) Council's as the leader of the CSSU.

It would be helpful if you could be clearer about the problems you are you trying to solve; before focusing on a solution. I'm not suggesting it is any of these:
  • Is it things not being done for the CSSU by Nemein?
  • Is it architectural decisions on the CSSU not being made (can you point to threads where someone arguing for something did so lucidly and got no resposne/was shot down)?
  • Is it project management around promoting things to stable from testing?

The solutions for each of these may be different, or they may be an all encompassing TSG.
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2012-02-20 , 14:16
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#15
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
True. I do wish we get more discussion of CSSU. My impression is that new features are pushed out by a small group of CSSU devs at their discretion and the challenge is communicating those features. The "management" has to have a light touch, I think organization or coordination are better descriptions.
Right, so that's a question of volunteering to help with comms; or volunteering to help with any non-coding task to ease processes. Standing on the sidelines and saying "a TSG is the answer" looks to be deploying a sledgehammer.
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2012-02-20 , 14:51
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#16
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
I don't consider mentioning MAG & merlin1991 as "ironic". They're part of the "core devs" making decisions and doing work.

Is it an election or a selection? If the former, who can vote? If the latter, who decides? What if someone is (s)elected who can only point and say "do this"? The CSSU developers (and contributors in other ways) are volunteers.
It's a nomination process and self-organization by the project. I doubt if votes will be necessary. At least I will defer to the judgment of those most involved and I think others will too if they see a TSG or other action taken.


Buzzword overload. What's "kp"?
kernel power

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71879

It would be helpful if you could be clearer about the problems you are you trying to solve; before focusing on a solution. I'm not suggesting it is any of these:

Is it things not being done for the CSSU by Nemein?
Is it architectural decisions on the CSSU not being made (can you point to threads where someone arguing for something did so lucidly and got no resposne/was shot down)?
Is it project management around promoting things to stable from testing?


The solutions for each of these may be different, or they may be an all encompassing TSG.
A discussion of what needs to be addressed is good. But I don't think we should get into some of the details out of concern that what should be a structural and organizational process will instead become personal.

It's not specific problems (although 1 and 3 on your list are problems AFAICT). Can we talk in general terms that, although CSSU started organically, it has grown to the point that we need to think about organizing, coordinating and supporting it a little better? Can we say we could make CSSU more open and transparent without anyone taking offense? Now that official support for N900/fremantle has ended, CSSU is the only path forward for thousands of N900 users.

My suggestion is a common aspect of software projects, a TSG. I think its main task should be coordinating and communicating technical decisions regarding the project. But other proposals could work as well if anyone has any. I also think that we will see more devs and other people support the project when they see more organization. The point is well taken that a solution can't be imposed, but I think there is a desire for a something to be done.
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2012-02-26 , 15:06
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#17
I don't think CSSU needs a formal TSG right now, as that TSG tends to consist of >50% of the active developers of CSSU.
I'm not an active developer in terms of code or maintenance contribution, but nobody will doubt I'm an active contributing member of #maemo-ssu, and if anything, I always defined my own role in this project as sth *very* close to a TSG though without any real powers aside from being an old ranting fart that can really annoy and be stubborn. ;-)

I think some of the developers appreciate and value this role I try to fulfill, and if council wants to assign some powers regarding talks to Nemein etc to me, I'd probably accept that additional burden. I don't however accept any role that would put me in a position where by definition my word counts more than that of any other developer, on any discussion inside CSSU. In simple words: I'm not anybodies boss, for the good or the bad. If anything, consider me (or any TSG, for that topic) a consultant and referee.

BTW I generally wonder if it's wise to have any active (in that project) developers in any TSG, as those usually are biased at least when it comes to their own project - this is a comment not targeted at the particular situation but rather meant to point at a general consideration.

Anyway Mohammad wasn't really the driving power of CSSU during the last 2 or 3 month (no criticism!) and also been the one with most 'powers' in CSSU so far, so what's it worth to nominate him for some TSG? Would that change anything?

For sure one thing is fundamentally true: right now there's no defined process in or around CSSU that says what goes into CSSU and what will not. We got a 'manifest' stub which I frequently quote, but no process defined. We managed to handle this 'by acclamation' so far, mainly happening in #maemo-ssu, and usually involving one or 2, max 3 active devels of CSSU (do we have more than 3 anyway? ;-D) plus my rants and comments that are often requested for by those devels. This may or may not work for the future, but anyway it won't hurt if the devels and the founders of CSSU (yes there are those as well) would agree on some common sense regarding this, and write it down somewhere in 2 sentences so everybody can read it when (s)he feels like.

Now sorry if the above is not giving a clear notion and point of view, it was meant to dump some possibly disconnected random thoughts here.

cheers
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2012-02-26 , 17:32
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#18
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
I don't think CSSU needs a formal TSG right now, as that TSG tends to consist of >50% of the active developers of CSSU.
I'm not an active developer in terms of code or maintenance contribution, but nobody will doubt I'm an active contributing member of #maemo-ssu, and if anything, I always defined my own role in this project as sth *very* close to a TSG though without any real powers aside from being an old ranting fart that can really annoy and be stubborn. ;-)

I think some of the developers appreciate and value this role I try to fulfill, and if council wants to assign some powers regarding talks to Nemein etc to me, I'd probably accept that additional burden. I don't however accept any role that would put me in a position where by definition my word counts more than that of any other developer, on any discussion inside CSSU. In simple words: I'm not anybodies boss, for the good or the bad. If anything, consider me (or any TSG, for that topic) a consultant and referee.

BTW I generally wonder if it's wise to have any active (in that project) developers in any TSG, as those usually are biased at least when it comes to their own project - this is a comment not targeted at the particular situation but rather meant to point at a general consideration.

Anyway Mohammad wasn't really the driving power of CSSU during the last 2 or 3 month (no criticism!) and also been the one with most 'powers' in CSSU so far, so what's it worth to nominate him for some TSG? Would that change anything?
It is a benefit for you to be involved, whether we have a TSG at some point or not. And of course any person has to be a volunteer and not an unwilling nominee. I do hope that people understand this discussion is intended to improve CSSU and figuring out how to help it, not as a criticism of it or any person in it.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
For sure one thing is fundamentally true: right now there's no defined process in or around CSSU that says what goes into CSSU and what will not. We got a 'manifest' stub which I frequently quote, but no process defined. We managed to handle this 'by acclamation' so far, mainly happening in #maemo-ssu, and usually involving one or 2, max 3 active devels of CSSU (do we have more than 3 anyway? ;-D) plus my rants and comments that are often requested for by those devels. This may or may not work for the future, but anyway it won't hurt if the devels and the founders of CSSU (yes there are those as well) would agree on some common sense regarding this, and write it down somewhere in 2 sentences so everybody can read it when (s)he feels like.

Now sorry if the above is not giving a clear notion and point of view, it was meant to dump some possibly disconnected random thoughts here.
I do think we should have a defined process for deciding what goes into CSSU and what does not, without anybody being anybody's boss. Maybe this is something as simple as having meetings on IRC at regular times. But it could also be bug triage, etc. And no matter what form it takes I think you could help with it.

I think your comments are good even without a point of view - idle thoughts are often constructive.
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Last edited by SD69; 2012-02-26 at 18:23.
 

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2012-03-04 , 16:59
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#19
One thing that prompted me to raise CSSU but I forgot to mention.

In the last council meeting, merlin1991 proposed a co-maintainership for the cssu-repo but we were unable to reach that item due to time constraints. I don't think we are going to be able to discuss that with Nokia anytime soon. Is there any discussion or objection by the community to this proposal?
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qwazix is offline qwazix
2012-03-04 , 17:06
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#20
What exactly does co-maintainership means? And what does nokia have to do with the CSSU repo apart from paying the bills?
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