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somedude's Avatar
Posts: 1,312 | Thanked: 736 times | Joined on Sep 2009
#701
i so am ready for some kind of teaser from jolla.
 
volt's Avatar
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#702
I don't know... Coming from a PC background, I'd find it odd if my laptop warranty was void from updating the OS kernel...
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#703
Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
Again, my own personal thoughts:

What are people's thoughts on being able to switch to a R&D mode where warranty is void, but you can flash kernel, own rootfs, etc?
It shouldn't be an "R&D" mode, and it shouldn't be used to try to suppress consumer rights (which - IANAL - might even be illegal in many places). The default position on any computer should be that the owner has full control, period.

How would you like it if your laptop died and the manufacturer refused to honour the warranty because you installed Mer on it?

I think there needs to be a balance between one app being able to flash it's own kernel, rootkit your entire system and software freedom somehow.
Yes, it's a hostile world out there. No, knee-jerk reactions like locked bootloaders aren't appropriate.

In a world where one of the most locked down devices in the world can be rooted simply by visiting an appropriately crafted web page, do we really think something like an "R&D mode" is going to make any difference?
 
Posts: 3,464 | Thanked: 5,107 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden
#704
Originally Posted by lma View Post
Just because the CPU in your laptop is crap, doesn't mean they all have to be.
Take a look at the Green 500 list. Power generally rules across the board, but Intel has several high-ranking entries as well. ARM has, well, not one.
i just wonder why NONE of those big companys has released any consumer mobiledevices with x86 if intel is soo good?

seriously if jolla will use intel I jus take theyr device as an device marketed for early adaptors and NOT consumer device because theyr cpu has not been heavily tested.

what jolla should use is a hw and architecture they have been tested for long OMAP that is...

Last edited by mikecomputing; 2012-07-16 at 21:04.
 
Posts: 479 | Thanked: 1,284 times | Joined on Jan 2012 @ Enschede, The Netherlands
#705
Originally Posted by volt View Post
I don't know... Coming from a PC background, I'd find it odd if my laptop warranty was void from updating the OS kernel...
Moreover, that term probably is void itself if brought to justice. It's little more than a paper tiger. Yeah, you *can* deliberately ruin hardware by software, but how is that different from ruining the hardware by throwing it on the floor?

Just make sure the bootloader can't be damaged or overwritten, i.e. put the bootloader in ROM. That way you can can always flash the stock firmware, restoring your phone. They did it back in 1995 on mainboards, it worked just fine then (and saved my ***), so why can't it now?
 
Posts: 1,298 | Thanked: 2,277 times | Joined on May 2011
#706
Bootloader in ROM is bad for usability, since you can't install any custom OS, can't boot from external storage and etc.
 
Posts: 415 | Thanked: 732 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Finland
#707
Originally Posted by lma View Post
do we really think something like an "R&D mode" is going to make any difference?
We don't but I'd guess that the corporations behind media content and paid applications do and maybe some of the more average users as well.

I'd be perfectly happy with a switch to void the warranty and enable platform hacker mode. Just like for example how archos does it - they offer the tools for you to enable booting your own stuff on their devices but using those will watermark the device and effectively void the warranty (and remove the ability to play drm'd media). Anyway, the end-game is that I'm able to hack on it and they don't need to care if I manage to break it while hacking. win - win.
 
Posts: 35 | Thanked: 149 times | Joined on Jul 2011
#708
Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
Again, my own personal thoughts:

What are people's thoughts on being able to switch to a R&D mode where warranty is void, but you can flash kernel, own rootfs, etc?
Maybe the solution from the WeTab feaseable:
http://wetab.mobi/en/developers/
Search for "HowTo – Get Root Access on WeTab OS".

Even Android devices can be returned to non-Jailbreak-mode.

Their solution is obviously a compromise:
- alllow everybody to become root - this is everything a developer dreams for. This is the most cheap way to spread developers devices to everyone interested in
- do not restrict hardware support at all (see below)
- restrict software support to those devices, that have not openend dev mode (root mode)

There are (at least) two risks:
1) Devs brick the device (accidentally or on purpose) and manage to return them to the manufacturer without having to pay a single penny. This would be the case, if the device is bricked so hardely, that it would be impossible or too expensive to find out, why the device is bricked.
2) Devs destroy the hardware with their developed software (e.g. overclocking)

The first could be solved by reanimating the device by reflashing the device as it has been done when it was produced (using JTAG, spelling casts, praying...). It would be thinkable to ask for a small obulus for such a service. This would never cover the expenses for the manufacturer, but at least it would recover some of it.

The latter has to be evaluated more closely: Is it more cost effective to just exchange this device at no charge or to evaluate the reason for the defect? That depends on how often will (defective) software actually kill the hardware? Or maybe it is even cost effective to kill 5 devices, until the darn clocking registers in the bootloader have the correct values :-)

Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
Again, my own personal thoughts:
I think there needs to be a balance between one app being able to flash it's own kernel, rootkit your entire system and software freedom somehow.
This i doubt. I see this more in black or white. Eighter open the device (no risk - no fun) or use the "ecosystem" and pay for your needs to someone. I do not belive, that the no-risk-no-fun-people are that many, that it would be efficient to differenciate rules in applications or the OS itself to allow or forbid actions regarding the kernel or single apps or boot-skripts.

Please note, that this is IMHO :-)
@Sksteeps: Thanks for such inspiring questions. Mer will undoubtably benefit from all of the discussion!
 
qwazix's Avatar
Moderator | Posts: 2,622 | Thanked: 5,447 times | Joined on Jan 2010
#709
Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
Again, my own personal thoughts:

What are people's thoughts on being able to switch to a R&D mode where warranty is void, but you can flash kernel, own rootfs, etc?

I think there needs to be a balance between one app being able to flash it's own kernel, rootkit your entire system and software freedom somehow.
I would gladly accept a void warranty if I wanted to overclock but I'm sorry I don't find losing the warranty acceptable because I wanted to install mt-toggles, or mobile hotspot.

Of course there should be a balance between security and freedom, (see here) but a switch like the one on the N9 and Android (allow installations from external sources) is enough. Also, although a rootkit is a serious threat we're not running a server in our pockets, and a random app without root privileges is just as harmful. An evil app doesn't need root to send my pivate data to the cloud, doesn't need root to send billable sms to premium numbers, doesn't need root to spam my contacts with ads, wipe my data, record my conversations, broadcast my position, take photos of me in the toilet.

So for me a locked kernel is just a lame excuse for security where there is none. Just make the cpu non-overclockable, or trip a one way switch to void warranty when overclocked. Even that could be contained (allow other components repair even if cpu is overclocked), but I know I'm asking too much.
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Posts: 2,802 | Thanked: 4,491 times | Joined on Nov 2007
#710
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
i just wonder why NONE of those big companys has released any consumer mobiledevices with x86 if intel is soo good?
Well, if you think that IBM, Cray, Fujitsu etc are being silly making supercomputers and should start making phones instead, feel free to suggest it to them ;-)

The point is that there's nothing inherent in the ARM ISA that makes for better energy efficiency compared to any other architecture (or if there is, all implementations so far have been incredibly bad and wasted that advantage).

Your OMAP-based handheld may last longer than your Atom netbook, sure, but that's because the rest of the system/SoC is designed to conserve energy well, particularly when idle. A PC is a terribly wasteful thing because it has to comply with 30+-year old design decisions in order to run software that expects them. An x86 (or even better, x86_64 or x86_32) system does not have to be a PC however. Remember the original Nokia communicators for example? i386s.
 
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