View Full Version : What woud you realistically like to see in the N900?
vs.taras
2008-01-01, 03:37
Here's the mighty question. What features would realistically you like to see in the N900 -- stage 4 of Nokia's 5 stage plan.<captian>Corrupt</captain>
What is this 5 stage plan? Never heard of it. Can anyone inform me?
GeneralAntilles
2008-01-01, 03:48
What is this 5 stage plan? Never heard of it. Can anyone inform me?
I'm sure google will turn up something for you, but it's basically just Nokia's plan to get maemo to the mainstream.
vs.taras
2008-01-01, 05:14
yes... Google is my friend. :)
Oh, happy new year everybuggy!
As techie / marketing fella.. I think we would reasonably see the following:
1. Change to MicroSDHC slot (likely only one)
2. 8GB internal memory (or whatever is the current trendy number)
3. Sliding keyboard will stay (possibly tilt)
4. GPS will stay (Nokia owns Navteq after all)
5. Support for the latest Wifi option as practical (cost consideration)
6. Improved webcam (2MP)
* Sorry the tablet will never be marketed as a camera replacement.. how can it when 10MP cameras sell for under $200 these days.
7. FM added again
8. Peripheral connector for docking, TV Out
9. More tied in promotions with online media providers
10. Out of the box advertising and promotion of media features
11. Build to order / customizations for mobile providers, including possibly cellular features.
Its plausable if they have enough faith to release more than one maemo based product.. covering consumer (media/web) and prosumer hobbyist groups if there is any considerable costs for certain option features (GPS, keyboard, etc).
----------
Features I would personally like to see added / restored:
1. Two SDHC card slots (full size preferred).. doubt this will happen - thats why I grabbed the N800!
2. Rotating camera (at least 2MP - whatever is most cost effective), better lighting visibility.
3. A Cellular option model - would be nice to only carry and worry about one device. I would use a bluetooth headset to answer..
4. TV Out
5. IRD (IRD, TV Out, docking, etc, possibly through a peripheral connector)
6. FM (dongle as an option and not mandatory duh!)
* Built in FM transmission would also be cool - tablet to tablet radios, FM to car speakers :)
7. Slide out and tilt keyboard (hard keys good for on the go messaging and gaming!)
8. Buttons on the top left and right
9. Charging through USB option
10. Wider battery options
11. Bluetooth PAN, and Wifi Ad-hoc support (tablet to tablet)
12. Switch to x86 processors (never will happen due to energy/efficiency and cost considerations).. would be great to use vmware and run other OSes.. even if slowly.. * Key thing is though it will sort of reboot development efforts.. till will make it easier to port existing x86 based linux stuff (ala EeePC)..
Man, I can't wait until you all see what's coming. :D
GeneralAntilles
2008-01-08, 23:32
Man, I can't wait until you all see what's coming. :D
Damn you, Texrat! DAMN YOU!
*giddy*
Damn you, Texrat! DAMN YOU!
*giddy*
I tell ya, it hurts not to be able to say anything! I'm bursting! Gahhhhh!!!!
:eek:
penguinbait
2008-01-09, 00:05
Man, I can't wait until you all see what's coming. :D
Is it my n810? :D
Man, I can't wait until you all see what's coming. :D
Do you mean soon? Like end of CES soon? Or just until you have had enough of taunting us soon?:confused::D
johnkzin
2008-01-09, 01:24
Do you mean soon? Like end of CES soon? Or just until you have had enough of taunting us soon?:confused::D
Yes, Nokia's production schedule is based on Texrat being able to get his fill of taunting us ;)
sjgadsby
2008-01-09, 01:35
Yes, Nokia's production schedule is based on Texrat being able to get his fill of taunting us
That's rediculous. Texrat never gets his fill of taunting us.
dubiousmike
2008-01-09, 03:25
Do you mean soon? Like end of CES soon? Or just until you have had enough of taunting us soon?:confused::D
Nokia, per their press release for CES dated yesterday, is showcasing the N810 at CES this year. If they are going to release details on the next gen, it wont be this week.
That's rediculous. Texrat never gets his fill of taunting us.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
and, true.
Do you mean soon? Like end of CES soon? Or just until you have had enough of taunting us soon?:confused::D
Soon is, um, relative.
And I don't mean to taunt... just... vaguely reassure. Yeah. That's the ticket. :D
Hmm Tex - How 'bout hardware as a service? I just send Nokia $500 every 6 months and they send me another amazing tantalizing device ( that's somewhat lacking so I still long for the next one )
Thank you Sir! May I have another?
Whatever features they decide to put in the new device: What I cares most for is the issue of cards. If they give us a device with micro- or mini-SD, and only one slot at that, I will be so extremely disappointed that I will have no words for it. Now that it seems to be a verified fact (reading up on specs) that SDHC is _not_ limited to 32GB, but actually 2048GB, full-size SDHC will _always_ be better than the tiny cards. And in any case the tiny cards are so small I'm going to keep losing them (as I do already with any other item that small).
This is really the most important thing for me. I also have six other devices which use full-size SD. Full-size SD is a _must_ for me. Yes, I would like to have TV out. And wimax would be great. But no deal if I don't get the SD slots.
Puh! I'll go away now - I'll not whine anymore about this until we see the new device announced.
All I can say is that the trend is increasingly toward microSD.
nikolajhendel
2008-01-09, 13:51
I haven't read the whole thread, so don't know if this had been written (I see that usb charging has, which I fully endorse).
I have the 6500 classic which has "micro-usb for everything". It's cool, but nagging me because Nokia hasn't released a micro-usb to minijack cable. They have made it mind you, but only bundled it with the 8800 luna or something...
Anyway - I would really like a screen thats flush with the case.
@nikolajhendel,
Dont you think that Having a screen flush with the case causes more problems than advantages ? In no time you would be wiping it again and again to clean the spots made by fingertips.
As it is now, both the Nokia 770 and the N800 can be held (pinched) by respective edges / sides. Imagine yourself standing on a crowded train and trying to use it with the screen flush with the case. You will be probably covering a part of the screen with your fingers.
769
nikolajhendel
2008-01-09, 14:29
With flush I meant that the screen should not be receded in the case. I fully endorse that the screen doesn't go to the edges (as I very much like the navigation and what not buttons).
Actually thought of another option that would be nice:
- A tactile scroller or a wheel on the right side of the screen. That way scrolling could be done with right thumb.
I really hate scrolling with the dpad, especially since it sometimes registers as a single click and jumps to whatever it feels like.
All I can say is that the trend is increasingly toward microSD.
I'm a bit curious.. where is the actual evidence for this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but my impression is the opposite - if anything, SD (full size) seems to be the trend. In December, for example, I checked out a lot of digital cameras for a gift and it's full-size SD more than ever, SDHC in particular. Even Fujifilm, which used to be xD only, now supports SD too.
In fact I'm not even aware of any device using micro- or mini-SD, except for the N810. No doubt they exist, but I suspect that this would mainly be in some mobile phones. And a mobile phone has very different needs in my opinion, they tend to just have one single card stuck in there permanently, as an extension for the internal memory. It doesn't really matter at all what type of card that is.
What other, common devices are there out there with mini/micro-SD?
I'd also like to see a flush touchscreen, with a caveat: it would be nice if case customizations were supported. Imagine being able to easily pop out the faceplate of a fully-flush tablet and pop in one that had, say, low ridges surrounding the screen if one so wanted.
I'm a bit curious.. where is the actual evidence for this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but my impression is the opposite - if anything, SD (full size) seems to be the trend. In December, for example, I checked out a lot of digital cameras for a gift and it's full-size SD more than ever, SDHC in particular. Even Fujifilm, which used to be xD only, now supports SD too.
In fact I'm not even aware of any device using micro- or mini-SD, except for the N810. No doubt they exist, but I suspect that this would mainly be in some mobile phones. And a mobile phone has very different needs in my opinion, they tend to just have one single card stuck in there permanently, as an extension for the internal memory. It doesn't really matter at all what type of card that is.
What other, common devices are there out there with mini/micro-SD?
I'm not saying the trend is manifesting immediately-- I was projecting. But at least for Nokia cell phones, we are definitely moving that way sooner than later. Many of our phones currently use mini or microSD... offhand I can cite the N75, E62, and the one my wife is currently using (I forget the model at the moment).
But give it time. Card manufacturers will be able to get higher yields from smaller chips. Device manufacturers will be able to free up real estate. Retailers can (theoretically) get more items on the rack (yes, I pre-emptively grant all the arguments against that one). Etc etc.
Anyway, the pros of shrinking form factors outweigh the cons overall. That said, I personally prefer full size SD over mini or micro for more than one reason.
EDIT: I'm going to exclude cameras, especially SLR, from that observation. Cameras don't need to "worry" so much about the factors that are driving other devices toward smaller card forms.
Whatever features they decide to put in the new device: What I cares most for is the issue of cards. If they give us a device with micro- or mini-SD, and only one slot at that, I will be so extremely disappointed that I will have no words for it. Now that it seems to be a verified fact (reading up on specs) that SDHC is _not_ limited to 32GB, but actually 2048GB, full-size SDHC will _always_ be better than the tiny cards. And in any case the tiny cards are so small I'm going to keep losing them (as I do already with any other item that small).
This is really the most important thing for me. I also have six other devices which use full-size SD. Full-size SD is a _must_ for me. Yes, I would like to have TV out. And wimax would be great. But no deal if I don't get the SD slots.
Puh! I'll go away now - I'll not whine anymore about this until we see the new device announced.
T3, back in the days, I would only buy digicams that use compact flash. Once SD Cards became more mainstream and affordable, there was little choice.. I also hung on to non SDHC for as long as possible, but 8GB SDHC now costs less than 4GB SD(non-HC).
The point is, as a business you cater to market and engineering needs. The mass market has already accepted MicroSDHC cards, as they will work with Full Size SDHC (using an adapter).
I believe the majority would prefer other additional features and accept a reduction to MicroSDHC.. At this point, the N810 uses MiniSDHC.. if Nokia did this.. and MicroSDHC surely has a larger market.. they'll switch to MicroSDHC.. to make room to give us the features we're asking for.. tv-out, larger battery, etc..
Sigh. Ok I won't post more on this issue for a while, but if microSD is a trend (and not a _projected_, future trend), then I would like to be pointed to some real evidence, i.e. a list of devices and what type of cards they use. I'm not asking anyone to compile such a list obviously, but as long as our own individual impressions are the only kind of evidence we have I can only rely on my own observations: I just don't see a move to microSD at all. Yet. And I also think that mobile phones is the special case here, not the other way around (as already mentioned). (And as far as I'm concerned they can as well be as small as physically possible. Obviously a device with a usable screen, as a tablet, _can't_ be shrinked much.)
as long as our own individual impressions are the only kind of evidence we have I can only rely on my own observations: I just don't see a move to microSD at all. Yet. And I also think that mobile phones is the special case here, not the other way around (as already mentioned).)
To the first part, true... and my observations come as an industry insider exposed to a lot of the "buzz". That leads to the second part: cell phones are such a HUGE driver for the electronics industry that as they go, so will many other devices. I'm not saying today or tomorrow, but as we build them, it will come. ;)
EDIT: I can see my first statement not coming across very well, but it was meant to indicate perspective, not arrogance.
I havn't read all page but if the FM tuner back will be a good idea :)
johnkzin
2008-01-09, 22:01
Some thoughts on recent posts:
Software is mutable
Yes, but hardware needs to be released in synchronization with software that properly uses it. If the long term goal is to finally release an iPhone-like degree of finger friendliness, then the "few/no buttons on the face" NIT design should have waited for that software to be ready before it was released.
If you release hardware before the software it needs is ready, you get bungled products, like the early generations of PowerMacs, which were crippled in their speed because the entire OS was still written for the Motorola 68K machines, and thus completely emulated on the PowerPC processors. There are other examples, but the point is: it all has to be ready at the same time.
While I do generally love my N810, I would rather have seen Chinook released for the N800, and waited for the N810, so that the N810 wasn't released until a finger friendly GUI was ready.
microSD
Every cell phone I come across (from ANY vendor) which has a memory card, uses a microSD/transflash card. And there's too many of them for me to track them all down and post them.
Every device which uses a miniSD or full size SD card can use a microSD card.
microSD is the lingua franca (sp?) of embedded device memory cards. (unless you're dealing with the cretins from Sony, who use the memory sticks on their non-phone devices ... but even their phones use microSD, IIRC).
FM radio
Nice candy. But I'd rather have that space given to me having 2 accessible microSD card slots. Ideally, 3 slots:
one not physically accessible to the user, for housing GPS data, OS, swap space, etc.
one that has restricted access to the user (internal, behind the battery or something), for /home/user, preference data, and installed apps, so that they don't get wiped out when you re-flash and such
one that is external, for random other tasks (backups, removable/swappable storage, etc.).
If I can have 3 microSD slots, then I'd be happy with re-adding the FM Radio (though, I'd like to point out, that since I never use the ear buds, an FM radio is actually pretty useless to me).
Flush faceplate
A flush, removable, face plate would be pretty ideal, yes. Basically, like the N810 face, only the metal face is removable, and you can get one that is completely flush with the screen. Or you can get one that has ridges. Or one that has a bevel.
scrolling
I would prefer, above and beyond all else, iPhone like scrolling (inertial finger flicking, finger sized virtual scroll bars for finger manipulation, that kind of thing).
Physical scroll bars (not wheels) would also be fine. Though, they'd have to be flush with the screen (if slightly separated from it), so that they don't violate the above thought about a flush face plate.
As for scroll wheels .... as I've said before, I'd rather burst into flames.
More than anything I've said so far, what I REALLY want is a device whose profile is like the Sidekick LX, but has a slide and tilt screen instead of a swivel screen. Same button placements as the LX. (a month or two ago, there was a nokia patent drawing released that showed a tilt that uses a folding segment to support the screen, instead of just something like the AT&T tilt; that would be the ideal tilting mechanism, I think)
I don't know how comfortale the LX's keyboard is (in terms of button pressure and click), but I want/need something with a better feel than the N810's -- it wears on my thumbs much more quickly than my Samsung SCH-R410 does (I can TXT all day on that thing).
Then you can lose the kickstand (and just use the tilt of the screen for that purpose), and that also makes any ports and such always available.
And put the camera and light sensor along the top edge of the screen.
Right now, I think that's what I want to see the MOST in the next generation of NIT. More than WiMAX/HSPA/EVDO, more than Bluetooth-PAN, more than video out, more than swapable face plates, more than 3 microSD cards, more than microSD at all, more than a fully finger friendly GUI. I want that physical device layout.
johnkzin
2008-01-09, 22:10
Oh, and if the hardware developers read that last part, about what I really want in the next release, and they want someone to look at a next-gen device that has a similar profile to that ... feel free to send me a device to eval, and I'll happily sign an NDA :)
(like any of the people on these forums wouldn't make the same offer ;) )
Software is mutable
Yes, but hardware needs to be released in synchronization with software that properly uses it. If the long term goal is to finally release an iPhone-like degree of finger friendliness, then the "few/no buttons on the face" NIT design should have waited for that software to be ready before it was released.
I strongly disagree in this case. Personally I don't see the discussed disconnect as a showstopper (YMMV of course) and I'd rather get my hands on hardware and deal with a few minor shortcomings than wait for perfection. I'm not sure Nokia can afford to wait, either, given the ramping competition. If the issue was critical rather than a mere inconvenience, however, I'd definitely be inclined to agree. And this is no defense by any means, but I'll bet I can point to many consumer electronics devices by many manufacturers that ship with a software flaw or two.
And I realize this subject raises some hackles, but I also like the idea of the user community offering software solution suggestions, which stand to gain from the aforementioned inconvenience. I'm having difficulty at the moment wording what I mean but hopefully you get the gist. Users suffering from the d-pad's relocation are good candidates (and would hopefully be truly inspired) for offering key input. Yeah. That's better.
Of course, my opinion on the matter ends up as useless if nothing comes of this (cough) UI improvement opportunity...
johnkzin
2008-01-09, 23:20
I strongly disagree in this case.
I understand what you're saying. In one way, it's a little like the Microsoft cliche that "nothing is worth using until version 3.1". And, in a business sense, there is a case to be made for that. But it's a philosophy that irks me.
And, the other side of that is the Apple way: try to present a 100% finished product (that has minor flaws instead of major flaws) in 1.0. They said "the final iPhone product will be finger friendly", and they didn't say "ok, that'll be version 3.1, not version 1.0, in the mean time we'll release a device whose hardware needs to be finger friendly, but isn't ... or we'll include a stylus just in case we're not 100% finger friendly".
And, by going straight to the final product, you don't give your competitors a chance to match you update for update, so that they're right on your heels as you get to the final product. I mean, look at how some of the new CES MIDs aren't that different in overall capability from the N810 ... and the N810 is just a few months old -- it took the industry 2 years to catch up with the 770, but because they saw the market evolving through the 770, N800, and N810 (and probably reading these kinds of forums to steal ideas), they were able to be ready with an N810 type device at the same time Nokia was.
If the first NIT had been a finished hardware design, from a UI perspective but not from a protocols perspective, then the industry would have been left scrambling a bit, I think. That's kind of what happened with the iPhone. Finished hardware UI on version 1. Software to support that hardware UI on version 1. They'll evolve it some, and the underlying stuff (EDGE vs HSPA) will obviously evolve, but I bet the iPhone's physical UI layout wont change much. It doesn't need to (sure, I'd like to see it have a slide-out keyboard, but I bet there isn't enough push for that for Apple to listen).
So, it IS possible to make that happen. But it's definitely just one of two (or more) schools of thought. So while I understand what you're saying, and see it as a workable/profitable approach, it's just an approach I don't like. And I definitely don't think it's necessary.
I generally agree with what you're saying-- I just don't believe Nokia has much choice where the tablets are concerned at this point. The MIDs are breathing down our neck. And while the iPhone offers some inspiration and motivation, it still isn't a direct competitor. Not to say that will always be the case, though, so by the time we offer something that DOES go head-to-head with the (next gen) iPhone there will be no excuses. It had better be ready.
johnkzin
2008-01-09, 23:59
Since:
the MID platform in general includes broadband wireless (WiMAX, HSPA, etc.),
Skype is talking about supporting more MID/UMPCs than just the NIT and PSP,
(EDIT) and Skype effectively makes a WiMAX NIT into a mobile phone.
I think that the NIT*, iPhone, and MIDs are all going to end up in 1 category by the end of the year.
(* the WiMAX NIT, anyway)
So, I think Nokia has mere months to get ready for competing with the iPhone.
What I would like to see for the N900:
1. improved battery life (6 to 8 hours of online activity over WiFi/BT or media playback over BT A2DP)
2. improved performance -- if going from 320Mhz to 400Mhz gives this kind of improvement, I'd look forward to going up to 520Mhz
3. native support for A2DP (yes, I know this can be sort of done today, but it requires a couple of arcane commandlines and it still has limitations)
4. support for two SDHC cards, or maybe even 1 x CF and 1 x SDHC. CF prices are plunging on a per-MB basis, and if Nokia starts adding PMP to the positioning statement (thus making it Media Meets Internet), the N900 would fly off the shelves
I am pretty happy with my n810 and I think it is really close to what I would want. My needs I think are pretty do-able as well. I would add a second camera to the backside so I can take pictures of things and people like I would with a cell phone. Of course it would need to be at least 2-3 mega pixels. The edges and corners should be rounder. It is a bit bothersome to type on it. A Function key on the right side of the key pad would mike it easier to use with the left side keys. I do agree that the resolution needs to get bumped up. Screen size should be a bit bigger not much. The ability to charge extra batteries outside of the device would be nice! Oh yeah... For the tips they could give us the next model for free right :D http://nokian810.wordpress.com
What would be real nice is a scroll wheel on the right side similar to a blackberry.
traveller604
2008-01-16, 16:31
Well here's what I want:
Form:
*The device is exactly the size of N800 display and at the front it's all display and nothing else.
*On the left side there's a speaker and a slot for stylus
*On the right side there's a speaker and pop-up microsd slot thingy that takes 2 cards
*On the bottom there's usb and 3.5mm jack (tv out too)
*On the top there's a pop-up camera ala N800 in the middle and at the right corner a button.. at the left corner there's a scroll wheel
*There's also a slideout keyboard ala N810
*The device is about as thick as the N810
Specs:
*It has about 25% more beef than the N800
*The camera is at least 3MP
*Integrated GPS
*Works as a 3G phone as well
*Gives you at least 30h of mp3 playback when used as a dedicated device (offline mode)
*Accelerometer for display rotation
That's about it. Yes it would be a phone as well..
If this thing was to be a tablet alone I'd like the display to be 7" or maybe even larger..
johnkzin
2008-01-16, 19:00
I would really like to NOT see a scroll wheel. :-}
Video/monitor out.
Foolproof & flexible video calling.
Wondering if it would be practical or useful for one of the site admins to perhaps setup a survey.. suppose this is something Nokia should really ought to do.. and probably does with select folks..
dubiousmike
2008-01-17, 17:48
What would be real nice is a scroll wheel on the right side similar to a blackberry.
Today's Blackberries have a track ball. I have many coworkers who "grew up" on the wheel, but the track ball is far, far better, especially when translating it into some of the killer apps on the blackberry like Opera Mini.
I had an S40 phone and a 770 a year ago. I switched to ONLY an E65 with wifi and used it for phone, music, games, email, light web, and voip for almost a year and loveed it.
Just got a N810 and instead of it being the end all device for me...I picture it as an extension to my phone now. Anything that my N810 can do that my E65 does that benefits from the extra screen size or keyboard I use the N810 now. For calls and voip which I don't really even need a screen for I use the E65.
Saying that...Let me sync contacts and sms's to the N810 so I can use that to send and read sms's just like I can do with mail.
Autosyncing photo's from my phone into my N810 would rock.
What i like to do with my 770 is
- internet browsing on my sofa
-> more RAM, processor power (> 500 mhz?), scrolling wheel, and/or buttons on both sides, usefull mail app for IMAP, DOC + XLS - viewer.
- watching movies on the train
-> internal HD (> 15 GB), processor power for full PAL resolution (that we don't need to convert the 700 mb divX vids to 400 x 240), usefull app that plays h.264 (maybe hardware based), flash video, quicktime..., DVB-T receiver (maybe as an upgrade), 1 multi card reader (or fullsize SD only), the screen could be a bit larger.
What i would like to do is
- manage contacts and appointments and sync. with phone/PC
Carl
johnkzin
2008-02-04, 17:09
I've been thinking again about what I'd like to see in the "next generation NIT", and I thought I'd update it here.
I'd actually like to see a distinction between the N8xx series and an N9xx series.
I'd like to see the N8xx series continue to be "shirt pocket" sized (same size category as the N800, N810, and iPhone). I'd like to see the following variants (the model numbers are suggestions):
N820 - N800 with revised layout
N830 - N810 with revised layout
N840 - N800 with WiMAX
N850 - N810 with WiMAX
N860 - N800 with GPRS/EDGE/UMTS/HSPA and/or LTE
N870 - N810 with GPRS/EDGE/UMTS/HSPA and/or LTE
N880 - N800 with 1x/EVDO
N890 - N810 with 1x/EVDO
(so, N8x0 where x is even for keyboardless, odd for with keyboard)
While I list those data protocols, I purposefully haven't specified voice capability on those devices. That's optional. Though, SMS/MMS would be nice.
Note, when I say "N800" and "N810" in that list, I don't mean exactly the same physical layout as the current N800 and N810 products. I mean "keyboardless" or "with keyboard". I'll get to what I would like the physical layout to be.
I'd like to see the N9xx series be a MID platform, that is slightly larger than the N8xx series (perhaps as much as 50% larger, but no more than that). It should have A LOT more battery, it should have 3 SD card slots (either micro or full size, not mini; one for shadowed OS, one for internal but removable data, one for external data), a lot more RAM, dual cameras (small user facing chat cam, and a non-user facing photograph cam with better resolution/clarity and a flash), micro-DVI video out, usb client, and perhaps distinct ports for usb host and usb otg. The N9xx would also try to use a chipset like the Qualcomm "every wireless in one" chipset: bluetooth, Wifi, WiMAX, 1x, EVDO, GPRS, EDGE, UMTS, HSPA, and LTE all in one device, with the user picking which ones to activate or not (and including things like LTE as they become available, so perhaps the first N900 doesn't have LTE, but the N910 has all of those plus LTE). If that can't be done, then multiple per-protocol variants (as I specified above for the N8xx series) would be acceptable, but not preferable (but, just to be clear, they should all support bluetooth and wifi, no matter what other protocols the do or don't support).
Both the N8xx series and N9xx series should have the following layout (the N900 just being larger). The keyboardless N8xx would be the same, just without the sliding screen and keyboard:
http://www.rudd.cc/~john/NIT/nokia-n810-modified-4closed.jpg
http://www.rudd.cc/~john/NIT/nokia-n810-modified-4open.jpg
(possibly move the d-pads to be HIGHER up on the side-boards, so that they're more like the N800's d-pad placement, which I think is ergonomically better, but perhaps not as aesthetically pleasing as having them be centered ... definitely do NOT move them to be lower, like the N810's placement.)
No kickstand, USB ports on the bottom edge (so that it's easy to access them while holding/using the device). The dual d-pads are programmable, with one being an 8-way dpad (4 way if the N8xx series is too small to support 8-way), the other having the 3 button cluster items and one or two "soft buttons" (as most cell phones have); the center button on both d-pads would always have the "select" functionality that the current d-pads use for the center. The screen slide/tilt mechanism would work as in the following Nokia patent:
Just the screen sliding mechanism, not the rotating camera, not the side-mounted d-pad. (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/21/nokia-patent-app-reveals-sidekick-wannabe/)
The tilting screen replaces the need for a kickstand.
Whether the N8xx series has 1 or 2 card slots, whether they're micro, mini, or full size, doesn't really matter as much to me. Though, I think the ideal would be 3 micro-SD slots (as they're loadable in any SD card slot, no matter which device you're working with; you just need an adaptor), as I said for the N9xx series. The first card would be for storing the OS (which could be loaded into memory at boot time), so that it's easier to upgrade/maintain the OS without disrupting the running OS image, swap out multiple OS versions (stable, bleeding edge, experiment with an upgrade, etc.), have larger OS installs than the basic RAM image allows (via multiple partitions), or upgrade an OS image via an external host's card slot instead of using the tablet itself. The OS card slot would definitely be an internal card. This first card slot would be internal, but as accessible as the N800's internal card slot (behind the battery door, but not behind the battery -- removable while running). The second card would serve the same purpose as the N800's internal card, and the N810's non-accessible card -- static data such as GPS data ... though I would add /home/user to that card ... it should be behind the battery, so that it isn't removable while running, but it should ultimately be removable (so you can upgrade the amount of storage if you want). The third card would be an external card.
Both the N8xx series and N9xx series should have usb client ports, used for both making the device available to a host as a mass storage device, and for charging. No more custom charging cables. It should be on the bottom edge so that you can handle the device while it is plugged in to charge. Whether the device is in mass storage AND charging mode, or charging only mode, should be selectable via an on-screen setting.
The N9xx series should have a bottom edge USB Host port, so that you can easily plug in a keyboard, mouse, ethernet adaptor, non-OTG data card, etc. It should be capable of providing enough power to It should also have a micro-DVI port, for hooking up a monitor (that port might be on the top edge, or bottom edge; I'm agnostic about that). I'd like the micro-DVI to support DVI-A, but that's optional. If the USB Host port is going to be piggy-backed on the OTG port, then it should be done in a way that is easy/convenient for the user to select behaviors. None of the bottom edge ports (usb client, usb host, usb otg, possibly micro-dvi, possibly the external data card slot) should be hidden behind a kickstand (which I already said should go away).
Possibly the N9xx should be x86 based (via the Via chipset? I don't care if its true intel, as long as its low power consumption, and binary compatible with a desktop linux box). It would be fine if the chip runs faster when plugged in than when it's running on battery (it would probably be preferable). There's a trade-off here between the N8xx and N9xx being software compatible vs the N9xx being software compatible with a desktop/laptop ... I lean toward desktop/laptop, but I can see the decision going the other way.
The N9xx should have more video ram than what its built-in display needs, so that when using the micro-DVI port, it can use larger monitors for full display. The software (both drivers, and GUI) will need to support that.
Speaker placement should be the same as on the N810 (perhaps slightly lower on the sides), but, if voice handset capability is to be supported, then the microphone(s) should be on the opposite corners, facing off of the ends of the device. This lends itself to being held like a handset. The dual microphones aren't for stereo input, but for ambidextrous use. If one needs to be disabled, then let the user pick which orientation is assumed (or use a sensor to detect the device's physical orientation).
The N9xx series should be capable of acting as an infrastructure mode wifi access point (so it can lend its WWAN protocols to being a personal-hotspot for other devices). It should also be able to act as an ad-hoc access point, if necessary, and as a bluetooth DUN and bluetooth PAN server (in addition to being a client for all of those protocols). The WWAN enabled N8xx series devices should do as much of that as they can, but it's not as necessary.
VERY optional: if it's possible to accommodate the size, and power, after doing all of the above, the N9xx should have a 1.8" SSD "hard drive", possibly in place of the second microSD slot (so, you'd have a swapable OS card, and an external card, but static data for /home/user settings/documents/music/etc., GPS data, etc., would be on the SSD). I really don't expect to see something like this on the N8xx series. If this can be done, then that device should also be able to act as a Bluetooth FTP server.
It would be nice to have both series capable of acting as a bluetooth keyboard and mouse for a laptop or desktop device. I know there's a keyboard add-on, but it's not a versatile as I'd like (can't be used with a Mac for example), and I don't know if it'll utilize the N810's physical keyboard. Plus, I'd like to see this supported by the core device, and not as an add-on.
Obviously, and as I indicated in some of my statements, some of those just wouldn't be practical for the smaller N8xx series devices. For the N9xx series, do all of that (the larger size and larger battery should help support it). For the N8xx series, reduce what you can only in as much as you're making size and power accommodations.
That kind of describes what I'd like to see on the hardware side (though, the last 3 list items were really more software than hardware, but I still thought they sort of belong here). I'll post my software desires elsewhere (another post here at a later date, or maybe in a new thread).
LosOutlandos
2008-02-04, 17:48
like generalantilles, i'd really love the OMAP3430 on the tablets because it would allow for some much needed overall responsiveness and get closer to a full desktop replacement.
Karel Jansens
2008-02-04, 18:41
like generalantilles, i'd really love the OMAP3430 on the tablets because it would allow for some much needed overall responsiveness and get closer to a full desktop replacement.
Wait 'til April and buy a Pandora. It'll run on the 3430 (among other things).
LosOutlandos
2008-02-04, 23:50
Wait 'til April and buy a Pandora. It'll run on the 3430 (among other things).
thanks karel, you just made me read forum posts for a couple of hours :p
let's hope the device really DOES come out, i'd seriously consider getting one...
Karel Jansens
2008-02-04, 23:54
thanks karel, you just made me read forum posts for a couple of hours :p
let's hope the device really DOES come out, i'd seriously consider getting one...
I have to admit I'm a tad sceptic myself, fearing perhaps another Medison Celebrity scam. OTOH, the developers are well-known (and apparently well-loved and respected as well) in the community, so odds are the Pandora will indeed materialize.
Then again, if it doesn't, all it'll have cost me is thwarted anticipation. I can live with that ($DEITY knows I've learned to with Nokia's Itablets).
superstar
2008-02-05, 00:53
I guess I'll add my .02 cents;
*Automatic USB host mode (I guess a firmware revision can already do this)
*PIM and Sync
*Better camera, at least 2mps (I've read somewhere that the cost for a 1.3mp camera for BB phones costs $10)
*Longer battery life
*Bigger swap file
*BT Mouse support
*printing support
I know most of that can be done with scripts/hacks but it would be nice if it came as a default. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with the N800, the $200 average price per tablet is very affordable, I can see students lagging this instead of a laptop to classes... Schools would just have to provide keyboards per classroom seat instead of buying desktops. Nokia should jump on the bandwagon to sell their NITs along with Dell, Mac and (insert other pc makers here) to schools.
My $0.02
2 full size SD slots
Faster processor
longer life battery
put the shift lock key back
slider keyboard
larger system flash (at least double)
hard cover (maybe the screen flipped face down)
option for higher capacity battery
Here are my greetings to the Nokia designers, I hope you are reading!
I have used the 770 and the N800 in the past, and now the N810 for about a month. The one feature I have always missed in these devices is phone functionality. I would gladly throw my phone out of the window and carry just one device in my pocket. And I would gladly pay double the price if that is needed!
Anyway, here's my complete list of what I would like to see in the N900 and the OS 2009:
Connectivity:
GSM call and SMS functionality
GPRS/EDGE/HSxPA data
MicroUSB charging in addition to the conventional one
Replace MiniSD with 2xMicroSD slots
GSM/CDMA/WIMAX functionality as MicroSD cards (SIM slot could be integrated in the device). This would make it possible for people to choose which connectivity they really want to have.
Programmable RFID device, and RFID reader
Hardware usability stuff:
One extra row of keys for number keys (an extra 6 mm of space is needed for this - it may be possible to slide the keyboard out that much more)
Add Esc, Tab and | (pipe symbol) keys
Add a couple of user programmable hardware shortcut keys
The slide-out keyboard of the N810 is very, very good in my opinion. Please don't remove it in the next version, or replace with a poorer option. Better tactile feedback is always good, but the keyboard usability is extremely good as it is already, not including the missing number keys.
Accelerometer for detecting motion and orientation
256 MB RAM (I'm still running out of it sometimes)
Vibration for alarms and touch screen feedback
A place for wrist or neck strap
If possible after everything else, shave a couple of millimetres off in every dimension (But only if - the current size of the N810 is nearly perfect. Do not make it bigger. The N800 is a little bit too big in my opinion.
Operating system:
Cryptographic services easy to use by applications (eg. for passwords and personal information)
Unlimited swap size
Better multitasking (an application must not be able to hang the whole system for several seconds)
Bash and Coreutils instead of Busybox
Make the system more "secure by default". Eg. the root password should be scrambled at initial startup.
Make it possible to encrypt the user's whole home directory
User interface:
Wide, thumb-operated scrollbars in every application. This could be an option in the control panel. Another possibility is a little bit less recessed screen (and both would be great!)
The touch detection should be made more reliable (get rid of the falsely detected double taps and undetected taps)
Add gesture support - instead of keeping the stylus pressed against the touchscreen, the context menu could open by drawing a small circle around the target item. Much quicker and easier.
Portrait mode with automatic orientation detection using the accelerometer
Applications:
Add Calendar, Todo and Notes application with standard open synchronization API
Integrate Gnumeric (already works in almost a usable way)
Browser tabs
Firefox-style extensions in the browser (Adblock is what I particularly want - it could easily be used to block unwanted big flash animations which bring the device to near halt)
Cryptographic integration in the browser - encrypt the saved passwords and form information
More shortcut keys in every app
A better e-mail app, regarding IMAP especially
More supported protocols in the file manager: SSH, CIFS, FTP, WebDAV
Almost forgot: OGG Vorbis sound support by default!
johnkzin
2008-02-12, 18:27
I think I know what I _REALLY_ want to see for the next gen NIT:
Modu.
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/02/12/hands-on-with-modu-its-real-and-plenty-fantastic/1#c10410841
(pay attention to the pics at the end of the gallery, where they have a side-slider qwerty handset)
Imagine this:
A device with the hardware layout I already mentioned, adding a modu module port (maybe slightly bigger than the N810 to fit the modu). Bluetooth and Wifi are on the NIT.
Then there'd be 6 modu style modules:
0) Null: just an empty plastic shell to hold the space. Comes with the NIT.
1) Storage: lots of storage/memory expansion (maybe even a 1.8" SSD, if they can make it fit), some or no battery expansion
2) Endurance: no storage/memory expansion, LOTS of battery
3a) Euro-GSM: GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS/HSPA in European bands, some storage/memory expansion, some battery expansion
3b) USA-GSM: GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS/HSPA in USA bands, some storage/memory expansion, some battery expansion
4) CDMA: CDMA/1xRTT/EVDO, some storage/memory expansion, some battery expansion
5) WiMAX: WiMAX, some storage/memory expansion, some battery expansion
Adding an LTE version could be new versions of #3, or a #6 of its own.
If you don't want WWAN on your NIT, you can just use one of the non-WWAN modules (Null, Storage, or Endurance). If you want WWAN on your NIT, you buy one of the WWAN modules.
I want to have a true linux on the device from the beginning like debian, ubuntu or gentoo linux.
Then no developper has to waste time in porting apps and users have full control over their device.
The problem with that is that the GUIs of these "true Linuxes" have been designed to use large screens with a mouse. The point of Maemo is to tailor a GUI for Linux (relatively painlessly it has to be said) that efficiently uses a small touch screen.
The problem with that is that the GUIs of these "true Linuxes" have been designed to use large screens with a mouse. The point of Maemo is to tailor a GUI for Linux (relatively painlessly it has to be said) that efficiently uses a small touch screen.
I cannot renember a linux which is bounded to a specific gui or you confuse something.
Maemo isnt binary compatible anymore to its parent debian. I do not have anything against a "Maemo Desktop Enviroment" (besides the fact that it is much less configurable than kde for ex.).
I just want to use the linux software of my choice without waiting for someone of the small maemo developper community to port it.
cyberbillp
2008-02-13, 20:29
My list is short becuase the n800 totally rocks as it is.
A2DP
USB Charging
Maybe 1024x600 res, but only depending on the next two wishes
Graphic Acceleration in hardware (drivers)
3D
Bluetooth Mouse profile.
OpenGL
OpenAL
For software features, I'd really like to see:
Autodownloading of RSS Video Streams (get up and watch the CNN feed each day)
Office Suite
Native Support of most codecs. Meaning; instead of the user having to cobble in ogg and mplayer etc.... this should ship with broad codec support.
Media Box should be default media player
Ability to designate handler apps for media. (Mp3 to Canola, AVI to Media Box, etc...)
Syntax highlighting code editor
Can bluetooth support a keyboard, mouse, headphones and a datalink, all at the same time?
I like the pause/answer button on the headphones, BUT the audio quality sucks. Need a way to add better headphones and keep the features.
Maemo isnt binary compatible anymore to its parent debian.
Can't really fault maemo/Nokia there, can you? Debian is going to ARM eabi too now, big ships just turn slower. We'll have binary compatibility again AFAICT (I don't see that as particularly important myself, but still...).
[...] We'll have binary compatibility again AFAICT (I don't see that as particularly important myself, but still...).
This is absolutely not probable (hint: Nokia is a company).
If you think deeper you perhaps realise that what is good for the community is also good for you.
First, I'm not sure what we're talking about anyway, as I'm running some sid binaries on my N800 right now -- we have binary compatibility.
This is absolutely not probable (hint: Nokia is a company).
Yeah, Nokia is a company. And we all know companies like to waste money hiring their own programmers to do what the OS community is doing anyhow, just so they can... umm... so they can do what?
What do they gain by keeping binary incompatibility (if they had it)? I really don't see anything.
Your whole claim that this is not a "true linux" is ridiculous.
If you mean that all software should be OS licensed, say so.
If you mean that it should come with a distribution managed and distributed by someone independent of Nokia, say so.
If you mean that it should be binary-compatible with some arch of some other distribution subject to some selection criteria (as your succeeding comments imply), say so. (Saying what selection criteria you use would scarce be amiss, too.) Or better still, notice that it is, and say nothing at all.
But when you say "true linux", the only meaning those words bear is that it runs the Linux kernel, which it undeniably does.
Lardman was polite enough to try to guess a rational complaint you could have meant, rather than simply pointing out how ridiculous your assertion was. His guess was apparently wrong, so could you please explain what you're trying to say?
1 - either NO cellular network, or at least the ability to COMPLETELY turn it off - I have a cell phone that is smaller and built for this function. I don't want to waste battery life on this.
2 - FULL BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY to all 3 previous OS: 2006, 2007 and 2008. No software will need to be rewritten, thus keeping all the programs we are used to.
3 - option to lock only the screen, not the keys - maybe an OS option, but mandatory, if you ask me.
4 - video capture - no explanation needed.
5 - unless it triples the price, a camera zoom. otherwise, keep the device at a relatively low price <500$
6 - a video chipset (looking on the Dell x51v and HP Hw4700)
7 - maybe more CPU - 624 Mhz processor seems more than enough for mobile devices.
8 - IF there is a screen update to a higher resolution - about 800 Mhz.
9 - extended ability to extend ram to the flash card (1Gb Ram from my flash card would look good)
10 - USB HOST 2.0
11 - Video output - through an adapter cable since there is no place on the device to add a jack.
12 - extended USB capacity :
a) when connected to a desktop - being able to reach the internal memory
b) when connected to a desktop - being able to access the desktop from the internet tablet
c) capacity to connect to the internet via USB - for those of us who are stealing our neighbor's connections ;)
13 - for the audio output - a capacity to boost it beyound 100% (it MAY already exist... but I wasn't able to find it in the past 2 month :(
14 - neat, yet pointless features:
a) multi-touch screen
b) wireless charging
c) dynamic screen orientation
d) infrared
they add to the device's price, make it a bit more elegant, yet are not needed for good functionnality. they should NOT be included in order to keep the price low.
15 - better drivers (ex: bluetooth keyboard does not support the number pad on the right :(
16 - of course: DO NOT MAKE IT LARGER
one of the nicest features is its small size, useful for anytime uses, not like a laptop!
GeneralAntilles
2008-02-15, 17:45
1 - either NO cellular network, or at least the ability to COMPLETELY turn it off - I have a cell phone that is smaller and built for this function. I don't want to waste battery life on this.
I'm assuming you're assuming that all future tablets will come with WiMAX? I hope not, too.
2 - FULL BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY to all 3 previous OS: 2006, 2007 and 2008. No software will need to be rewritten, thus keeping all the programs we are used to.
This is just silly.
3 - option to lock only the screen, not the keys - maybe an OS option, but mandatory, if you ask me.
We already have this.
5 - unless it triples the price, a camera zoom. otherwise, keep the device at a relatively low price <500$
Bad idea for three reasons: cost, size, and the intended use of the camera (webcam).
6 - a video chipset (looking on the Dell x51v and HP Hw4700)
We already have this (just need drivers).
8 - IF there is a screen update to a higher resolution - about 800 Mhz.
Screens don't come in megahertz.
9 - extended ability to extend ram to the flash card (1Gb Ram from my flash card would look good)
We already have this.
10 - USB HOST 2.0
We already have this.
12 - extended USB capacity :
a) when connected to a desktop - being able to reach the internal memory
b) when connected to a desktop - being able to access the desktop from the internet tablet
More complicated than it sounds.
c) capacity to connect to the internet via USB - for those of us who are stealing our neighbor's connections ;)
We already have this.
steelmaverick
2008-02-15, 18:57
You can capture video with the N800.
OppositeOfIgnorance
2008-02-18, 05:08
1 - either NO cellular network, or at least the ability to COMPLETELY turn it off - I have a cell phone that is smaller and built for this function. I don't want to waste battery life on this.
2 - FULL BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY to all 3 previous OS: 2006, 2007 and 2008. No software will need to be rewritten, thus keeping all the programs we are used to.
3 - option to lock only the screen, not the keys - maybe an OS
option, but mandatory, if you ask me.
4 - video capture - no explanation needed.
5 - unless it triples the price, a camera zoom. otherwise, keep the device at a relatively low price <
500$
6 - a video chipset (looking on the Dell x51v and HP Hw4700)
7 - maybe more CPU - 624 Mhz processor seems more than enough for mobile devices.
8 - IF there is a screen update to a higher resolution - about 800 Mhz.
9 - extended ability to extend ram to the flash card (1Gb Ram from my flash card would look good)
10 - USB HOST 2.0
11 - Video output - through an adapter cable since there is no place on the device to add a jack.
12 - extended USB capacity :
a) when connected to a desktop - being able to reach the internal memory
b) when connected to a desktop - being able to access the desktop from the internet tablet
c) capacity to connect to the internet via USB - for those of us who are stealing our neighbor's connections ;)
13 - for the audio output - a capacity to boost it beyound 100% (it MAY already exist... but I wasn't able to find it in the past 2 month :(
14 - neat, yet pointless features:
a) multi-touch screen
b) wireless charging
c) dynamic screen orientation
d) infrared
they add to the device's price, make it a bit more elegant, yet are not needed for good functionnality. they should NOT be included in order to keep the price low.
15 - better drivers (ex: bluetooth keyboard does not support the number pad on the right :(
16 - of course: DO NOT MAKE IT LARGER
one of the nicest features is its small size, useful for anytime uses, not like a laptop!
hahahahah 800mhz screen... hahahahahahah wow
okay sorry for making fun of you i couldnt resist
anyway yeah - what it needs:
a SIM Card slot - YES make it a phone. (this is going to spark mad contro i know)
howbout a good camera (They're not that hard to do anymore) - my friend's LG Venus camera is excellent - comparable to my old Olympus 3MP.
Howbout some hardware acceleration for 3d rendering (yes, gaming), maybe im being unrealistic but thatd be great...
Howbout an IMAP 3420 or something powerful - i dont want any lag from runnign flash...sohuldnt take up THAT much batttery, should it?
The screen is fine as it is i think, but iguess 1024x640 would be cool, but i think u'd hafta make it bigger (which is a step back, i think). OH make it at least 262k colors - its not that noticeable but on paper it looks a lot better when comparing to a Creative, Archos, or Cowon.
Keep the dual SDHC from the N800 - THOSE ARE GOLD (seriously, MicroSD is bulls*** and was a BAD idea with the N810 - its not like the N810 is too small to fit SD's at all, so why limit it to 8GB? stupid idea on their part). In the N900, howbout triple or quad SDHC? (16 or 32GBx3 or 4 :D)
GPS. Yes, try to make it as non-crappy as possible.
oh and howbout batteries that dont require a freakin pocket knife to take out - and make an external (but subtle) extended-life battery pack that just looks like a thick battery cover, but is actually a really long lasting battery (its been done on other devices)
512MB RAM - yes, on a handheld, i know that thats a lot, but if u want it to remain considered "fast" for the next 3+ years, they better up the ante - at least to 256mb
as far as integrated disk space, i dont care, the 256mb is fine and its not like anybody really uses it, and its not like u cant use the SD, so w/e
howbout a full-sized USB in?
voice recognition (thats currently underway on OS2008 i know but i want it fully integrated and official)
keep the keyboard from N810 - its not that great but its THERE and makes it THAT much more functional
.......................
thats just about it
johnkzin
2008-02-18, 05:35
Actually, the more I think about the Modu concept, the more I like it.
1 Module for WWAN (as I outlined in a previous post, with WWAN modules, and storage/battery modules)
1 Module for the "brain" (CPU, OS firmware, RAM, maybe the primary user storage on microSDHC, maybe small rechargeable battery)
And then shells that have 1 slot for each of those modules... plus optional extras (display variations, keyboard or not, card slots, extended battery, picture camera, chat camera, PMP features, etc.).
So, you could take your WWAN module and use it various phone shells, or NIT type shells (or laptops, or even PCs). And the same with the CPU module (could be used in a NIT, a laptop, a PC, or just as a thumb-drive type replacement).
As long as they all use the same interfaces, you'd have 3 product lines (wwan modules, cpu modules, shells), instead of a huge matrix of product lines (cpu+wimax+keyboard, cpu+gsm+keyboard, cpu+evdo+keyboard, cpu+wimax-keyboard, cpu+gsm-keyboard, cpu+evdo-keyboard, cpu-wwan-keyboard, cpu-wwan+keyboard, etc.). And when it came time to upgrade, you could just upgrade the pieces that make sense to you. So, if you like the shell you're using, and the wwan, but a new faster CPU comes out, then you can upgrade just the cpu module.
I don't know that Nokia would go down this path, but I think that's a "realistic wish" for the future. (where realistic means "realizable" not "probable")
Modules suck. I prefer durability and lower price over modularity any day.
Slots add space and cost.
The OMAP3430 allows for 3D acceleration. That's not saying that 3D programs will be great, but 2D games and such will see a performance boost.
As for iPhone-esque functionality, the multi-touch is overrated and the lack of buttons is a pisser.
I'd be fine with an N810 with boosted specs and a better keyboard design.
What do they gain by keeping binary incompatibility (if they had it)? I really don't see anything.
This is a "true linux". "Binary incompatibilities" are due to different library versions.
Debian is going to ARM eabi too now, big ships just turn slower. We'll have binary compatibility again AFAICT (I don't see that as particularly important myself, but still...).
This is absolutely not probable (hint: Nokia is a company).
If you think deeper you perhaps realise that what is good for the community is also good for you.
Huh? Binary incompatibility was lost because maemo started using eabi. Now Debian eabi is gathering steam, so Debian binaries will again be usable. Like I said, I don't find that particularly interesting myself (I bet the recent OpenEmbedded work is much more useful), but the compatibility will be there.
Can you please explain what you mean in writing? I'm really bad at understanding handwaving (I was particularly lost with the "good of the community" part)
Modules suck. I prefer durability and lower price over modularity any day.
Slots add space and cost.
For a device of this class, I totally agree. Some things should be separate modules, at least for some devices (e.g. GPS for N800), but BT connection is a good way of dealing with many such things.
The OMAP3430 allows for 3D acceleration. That's not saying that 3D programs will be great, but 2D games and such will see a performance boost.
As for iPhone-esque functionality, the multi-touch is overrated and the lack of buttons is a pisser.
Overrated, yes, but it'd still be nice. Buttons FTW, though! Buttons are mandatory.
This is a "true linux". "Binary incompatibilities" are due to different library versions.
Perhaps that's what Modulok meant, but if the libraries are binary compatible, just not all installed/available from default repos, I'd consider it a binary compatible system...
- symmetrical and no flat keyboard (look at Nokia E61!)
- pad and extra keys should be next to the display
- same size as N810
- rubber surface at the backside so the device isn't slippery (look at HTC-Touch)
- 10hz GPS
- Yaw sensor for trackday recording
- VGA cam for video calls (this is enough, more pixels will be always a toy on this small device)
- 800x480 is nice and enough if I travel around (read below)
- 6xx Mhz or even better a Menlow CPU to be x86 compatible with full video support for every usual videos
- maybe 3D if Nvidia ships their mobile GPUs
- USB-Host
- Keyboard and mouse support in Xorg (USB & Bluetooth)
- Mini DVI with resolutions up to 1280x1024 (including widescreen support)
- 512MB RAM, 2GB for OS
- internal Micro-SDHC and external full SDHC-Card support (swapping cards must be easy)
- of course Wifi, maybe Wimax
- no GSM, UMTS, HSDPA, this is an ITT
This should be possible in the $400 range end of 2008. The device should be act like a micro laptop if I connect a keyboard, mouse and/or external display and act like an ITT if I travel around (built in keyboard, 800x480 display, BT mouse)
So I will be use most of the time this 'N900' and don't need to sync to much with my big PC/laptop, as my bookmarks, documents, scrapbooks, mail, calendar... are already on the device.
With a x86 compatible CPU everyone can install his 'N900-distro' and have a Gnome Desktop for 800x480 resolution and every app we wish to have now (Evolution, TBird, Full Firefox or Webkit based Epiphany, OpenOffice)...
If this device really comes before xmas 2008, it will be blast every other MID, tablet, eee away - I promise!
IMHO, x86 compatibility is highly overrated (these days, with open-source software like debian being ported so widely anyway). And you hit a major point there: it's then completely software commoditized -- "everyone can install his 'N900-distro'" -- which is not something that particularly helps Nokia.
3D is available without any nVidia GPUs, if we stay with OMAP. Somewhat larger displays are possible with the 3430, though 1280x1024 output might be a problem (and is not important, anyway). If it has 1024x600 output (should be readily possible, I think), and you use that with a typical dot-pitch display, it should do anything you'd want to with a 600 MHz CPU.
And I don't see your wishlist happening for $400 by year's end. Especially keeping it size of N810, and adding stuff upon stuff upon stuff...
And I don't see your wishlist happening for $400 by year's end. Especially keeping it size of N810, and adding stuff upon stuff upon stuff...
What do I really adding stuff upon stuff upon stuff?? :confused:
6xx Mhz is adequate now (look at HP Ipaqs), I only want to go with 10hz GPS, Yaw sensor, more memory and miniDVI because these one are really useful. And takes the N900 a bit into the professional area without touching the price to much.
These chips or external connector won't be that much higher priced as you might think.
I don't need 1024x600 when I travel, it's ok to have 800x480, but I can connect a usual DVI-Monitor. With DVI I can use VGA adpaters too for projectors. But if 1024x600 isn't too expensive, I take 1024x600 ;)
And it's even ok if this device can't do too much 3D but playing full usual video formats (for example from Canon digicams, mjpeg or VDR mpeg2).
And the rest is cosmetic (key/keyboard layout) or nearly built-in (USB Host) or is only a matter of compiling mouse support into Xorg. Even the N800 does have full SDHC :p ;)
So I don't know what you really mean if I adding stuff upon stuff... I don't think so, only faster CPU, better GPS, Yaw sensor, more memory and miniDVI is new. And this isn't possible end of 2008.
What do I really adding stuff upon stuff upon stuff?? :confused:
6xx Mhz is adequate now (look at HP Ipaqs), I only want to go with 10hz GPS, Yaw sensor, more memory and miniDVI because these one are really useful. And takes the N900 a bit into the professional area without touching the price to much.
These chips or external connector won't be that much higher priced as you might think.
I don't need 1024x600 when I travel, it's ok to have 800x480, but I can connect a usual DVI-Monitor. With DVI I can use VGA adpaters too for projectors. But if 1024x600 isn't too expensive, I take 1024x600 ;)
I'm with you there; as long as it has at least 1024xnnn video out, the 800x480 is probably quite sufficient.
And it's even ok if this device can't do too much 3D but playing full usual video formats (for example from Canon digicams, mjpeg or VDR mpeg2).
And the rest is cosmetic (key/keyboard layout) or nearly built-in (USB Host) or is only a matter of compiling mouse support into Xorg. Even the N800 does have full SDHC :p ;)
So I don't know what you really mean if I adding stuff upon stuff... I don't think so, only faster CPU, better GPS, Yaw sensor, more memory and miniDVI is new. And this isn't possible end of 2008.
Add d-pad next to display
Mini-DVI
Full-SDHC, easily accessible (The N800 does indeed have this; it's not the size of the N810)
Extra miniSD slot vs. N810 (Keeping internal 2GB, and adding internal mSD)
And I assume you don't want to seriously injure battery life, so the new CPU will probably require a somewhat bigger battery.
All without making it bigger. And making it $80 cheaper, while adding various (non-size critical, but cost-adding) features like better GPS, accelerometer, and better CPU (whether OMAP3430, or Menlow + maybe nVidia GPU).
The costs are counterbalanced, of course, by the continual cheapening of technology, but I think you're adding more than that can take care of in just a year.
I just don't see it happening, but I'd be quite glad if it did. :)
nVidia does not provide low power, low profile graphics solutions. If we are talking Intel, it's likely to have an underpowered Intel graphics chip. The PowerVR SGX within the OMAP3430 is one of (if not) the best when it comes to mobile graphics.
I'm highly against any x86 processor due to the amount of heat generated and power consumption by an x86 core. Intel's ULV line (including the Menlow) shows that an x86 CAN get relatively low compared to other x86 cores, but only by butchering said core's performance and speed.
Accelerometers are tiny and very possible. Personally, I'd go for full sized SD cards again rather than Mini/Micros because they're cheaper and higher capacity. GPS could use an improvement
Perhaps that's what Modulok meant, but if the libraries are binary compatible, just not all installed/available from default repos, I'd consider it a binary compatible system...
Old libraries should work as long as there were not filesystem structure changes or did not depend on a certain kernel. However, they may conflict with other libraries and newer apps that require a newer library.
Huh? Binary incompatibility was lost because maemo started using eabi. Now Debian eabi is gathering steam, so Debian binaries will again be usable. Like I said, I don't find that particularly interesting myself (I bet the recent OpenEmbedded work is much more useful), but the compatibility will be there.
Can you please explain what you mean in writing? I'm really bad at understanding handwaving (I was particularly lost with the "good of the community" part)
http://www.debian.org/ports/arm/index.de.html
http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
ARM (arm)
First officially released with Debian 2.2. This port runs on a variety of embedded hardware, including the NSLU2.
http://www.debian.org/ports/arm/index.de.html
http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/
ARM (arm)
First officially released with Debian 2.2. This port runs on a variety of embedded hardware, including the NSLU2.
For a port that is binary-compatible with the N8x0, using standard "unreal linux" ITOS:
http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort
Or, if we simply want to emphasize that some Debian architectures aren't binary-compatible, why not mention these, too...
http://www.debian.org/ports/i386/
http://www.debian.org/ports/m68k/
http://www.debian.org/ports/sparc/
http://www.debian.org/ports/alpha/
http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/
http://www.debian.org/ports/mips/
http://www.debian.org/ports/hppa/
http://www.debian.org/ports/ia64/
http://www.debian.org/ports/s390/
http://www.debian.org/ports/amd64/
OppositeOfIgnorance
2008-03-30, 17:03
my biggest problem with the n810 is the internal memory
MiniSD and MicroSD blow
its not like we're short on space, normal SD's WOULD fit inside it
but u idiots at nokia chose not to put slots in
YOU'VE DONE IT BEFORE!
way to take a step back
johnkzin
2008-03-30, 17:52
Honestly, I'd rather have MicroSD than full size SD. And while I would agree that MiniSD is a waste, I don't see any justification for calling the nokia designers and engineers "idiots". All that's going to get you is dismissed as a child.
or to be rebranded as OppositeofIntelligence..
OppositeOfIgnorance
2008-03-30, 17:57
HAHAHAHA nice
i am a child
and yes i say dumb things when im mad
but that doesnt excuse them for putting a fullsize sdhc over a micro sd
fullsize sd's are cheaper and hold more, and they're not much bigger (and its not liike theres a shortage of space)
GeneralAntilles
2008-03-30, 18:03
Honestly, I'd rather have MicroSD than full size SD.
Dual-MicroSD slots would work for me in lieu of dual-fullsize.
but that doesnt excuse them for putting a fullsize sdhc over a micro sd
fullsize sd's are cheaper and hold more, and they're not much bigger (and its not liike theres a shortage of space)
Something makes me think Nokia's hardware engineers know what they're doing just a bit better than you. :)
johnkzin
2008-03-30, 18:17
Dual-MicroSD slots would work for me in lieu of dual-fullsize.
Yup. 2 MicroSD slots would be quite nice. Wonder how much room they take up compared to the N810's one miniSD slot.
GeneralAntilles
2008-03-30, 18:28
Yup. 2 MicroSD slots would be quite nice. Wonder how much room they take up compared to the N810's one miniSD slot.
Well, MicroSD is about 50% the size of a MiniSD card. Obviously there's the issue of latches, contacts, slots, etc. I think if they simply added an internal slot similar to the N800's setup it would work out fairly well.
arjun-giri
2008-03-30, 18:55
I was travelling with my n800 in India and Andamans.. Sometimes staying on the beach with no power outlet its immpossible to check the battery level withouth booting the os. so my wish is :
to have hardware battery checker just under the back cover.
to have a hard case protecting the screen , just like palm one has - a rubber one with metal protector fliipping off.
thanx.
OppositeOfIgnorance
2008-03-30, 20:30
but why would they downgrade to Micro's? Whats the advantage here? Theres no shortage of space.
GeneralAntilles
2008-03-30, 20:42
but why would they downgrade to Micro's? Whats the advantage here? Theres no shortage of space.
But there is a shortage of space, that's why the N810 only had a single MiniSD slot rather two two fullsize ones. Assuming the next tablet has similar size restrictions (likely), and given the choice between a single MiniSD slot—a format that doesn't really seem to have a niche, as MicroSD cards generally higher capacity and cheaper (economies of scale from the cellular market)—and dual MicroSD slots, I'll take the dual slots.
OppositeOfIgnorance
2008-03-30, 20:47
how much smaller is the n810 compared to the n800 though? they could fit in that
is it cuz of the keyboard? the sdhc slots on the 800 arent that thick though
and if there really is a shortage of space, ditch the minisd. nobody uses minisd.
micro is more popular, more common, cheaper, more capacity, and its much smaller than the mini
how much smaller is the n810 compared to the n800 though? they could fit in that
is it cuz of the keyboard? the sdhc slots on the 800 arent that thick though
and if there really is a shortage of space, ditch the minisd. nobody uses minisd.
micro is more popular, more common, cheaper, more capacity, and its much smaller than the mini
The N810 is as thick as the N800 is at it's thinnest point so not only does it include a keyboard but it is thinner. Overall the N810 is smaller than the N800. I think the space inside the N810 was set aside for the WiMax version.
Not that i want to kill the speculation, but some aspects of product creation are being completely ignored, for example the desire to have an always available container for the maps, then general tendency in latest Nokia products (N81 8GB, N95 8GB ...), expected state of the card market, you name it.
The famous 5 steps speech was underlying something deeper than just the technical evolution: it was also saying that the potential customer base is expected to grow. This implies both that eventually the features must be such that a large part of the target market segment feels compelled to buy one and that also the business model must be self sustaining and profitable according to Nokia expectations.
Notice that I haven't mentioned any technical reason yet, nor I will in this case ;)
johnkzin
2008-03-31, 01:36
But there is a shortage of space, that's why the N810 only had a single MiniSD slot rather two two fullsize ones.
That's not _quite_ true. There are 2 card slots, you just can't manipulate the internal card (the one that contains the GPS data). But I don't know if the internal card is Full size, Mini, or Micro (or maybe just more nvram).
Personally, I'd rather have 2 user-accessible slots than a dedicated GPS data slot ... but, then, I don't use the GPS at all.
GeneralAntilles
2008-03-31, 01:44
That's not _quite_ true. There are 2 card slots, you just can't manipulate the internal card (the one that contains the GPS data). But I don't know if the internal card is Full size, Mini, or Micro (or maybe just more nvram).
Good point. :<
ARJWright
2008-03-31, 05:13
Oooh, nice thread :)
N900 Hardware
- OMAP3
- haptic touchscreen
- 1 micro SD
- 8GB internal Flash
- same size screen as the N800/N810, less plastic around the screen than the N810
- context changeable exterior directional pad (music, web, docs, etc.)
- flush touchscreen; higher dpi but same resolution as current
N900 Software:
- much better web browser (microformats support and use; FF extensions support, and everything else others have stated about this browser; mini-map view for those sites that are extra large); offline mode
- noBounds
- auto (fix?) ability to swap from BT to WiFi/WiMax connections as situations allow
- all major web-runtimes (AIR, Flash, Silverlight, etc.)
- PIM support via SyncML with onboard database (MySQL lite kinda thing) where all data interacting with the IT can be mapped in such a table (shared, exported, etc.)
Perosnally speaking, I'm very content with things like battery life, wifi performance, etc. But given the time of development since my N800 and this one, I'd expect that things would improve in that 20-30% range just because of manufacturing techniques and their improvement.
Not that i want to kill the speculation, but some aspects of product creation are being completely ignored, for example the desire to have an always available container for the maps
Yes, that's what I feared. Builtin MMC chip (of relatively small capacity and impossible to remove) and thus only one additional SD/MMC slot. Or can OMAP 3430 support more than two SD/MMC interfaces? I guess not.
sachin007
2008-03-31, 08:25
Yes, that's what I feared. Builtin MMC chip (of relatively small capacity and impossible to remove) and thus only one additional SD/MMC slot. Or can OMAP 3430 support more than two SD/MMC interfaces? I guess not.
I am guessing that the n810 W will have atleast 8gb of internal memory:confused:
gigabites
2008-03-31, 08:51
@ArnimS
::snip::
The RoundPad
http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=497&stc=1&d=1193595111
1) I call the new interface the RoundPad. It's simply a round d-pad, that can be depressed, but is also a capacitive touchpad on its face, for multi-positional input (just like the analog stick).
2) Based on the sensed finger position, the depression (through software) will determine what direction the user has pressed. This allows for a 4-directional dpad, 8-directional dpad, or n-directional dpad emulation. This makes it just as intuative as the original dpad, and usable for many games.
::snip::
Capt'n C-type 2000 Spyder
Hehe, you have just reinvented the wheel, in this case the ipod wheel.
Oh, I love the roundpad. It seems to have a clearer direction, compared to the ipod's wheel which seems to only be able to wander around aimlessly ;)
PS: I don't think the ipod wheels can detect the position of your finger on the wheel? Most directional inputs have to be clicked to hit the 4 microswitches underneath the wheel. Also, all the software navigation in regards to the touchwheel invovles directional rotation, not an absolute position on the wheel..
I'm not sure, but I think they can sense position; the click is used so there's no confusion whether a short swipe at one of the 4 positions was a tap or a slight volume adjustment.
But to sense actual position, calibration might be necessary, which I don't think iPods have...
MOST IMPORTANT: THE SPEAKERS ! I LOVE THEM !
1. Scrolling wheel: a must ! Try Sony !
2. Volume wheel: a must!
3. Performance: Faster processor, faster browser, better camera.
4. Improved video possiblilities, sizeability, codecs etc.
5. Screen + 1 size and better daylight readability. The device sizes are excellent !.
6. Video out: Every freaking digital photo camera has video-out !
7. GPS yes, not necessarily for navigation purposes, maybe location, defintely photos', logging etc.
8. Extended power facilities (external batteries or easy changeable batteries
9. Integrated Skype, Pidgin (as messenger etc.)
10 Network Printing !
11 Simple word, excel and powerpoint software
12 Sync'd to PC & mobile phone: PIM: calendar. to-do list, contacts,
13 Wifi in combination with bluetooth and G3 on my mobile phone works fine for me. Maybe WIMax is better, but I am not sure if that also applies to dense populated aereas.
Abel.
That's not _quite_ true. There are 2 card slots, you just can't manipulate the internal card (the one that contains the GPS data). But I don't know if the internal card is Full size, Mini, or Micro (or maybe just more nvram).
It's movinand.
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/products/fusionmemory/Products_MoviNAND.html
a screen from these guys:
http://www.n-trig.com/
(sorry if its been said before)
speculatrix
2008-04-04, 23:20
I'd like the wimax module to be a pluggable thing so I could swap it for 3G+GSM.
Video out would be quite nice, as it means the tablet would be a useful media player to connect to a TV.
Multi-touch screen.
usb host with a bit more power output able to drive at least a usb card reader.
802.11n
accelerometers for both input/control and navigational dead-reckoning
low priority:
IRDA so's I could use it as a univerdal remote control.
A better camera would be nice.
impossible, but...
dvb-h receiver
scumgrief
2008-04-07, 23:05
It would just be nice to see a more powerful ARM processor, opengl, and a DSP that works at full rez
gigabites
2008-04-08, 23:25
realistically?
hardware wise:
1. a screen that is actually usable in the daytime (N810 is close but not really)
2. a better cam (my old Nokia 6230b cell has a better cam)
3. better cpu, chipsets, blah blah blah
OS wise: (yes I know the new OS addresses most of these issues)
1. real OS updates that don't require flashing
2. Fix the stupid problems with the repositories
3. able to change the friggin icons/function on the lefthand side
4. actual icons on the desktop, as in, no more need for simple launcher, Idea (which i miss on 2008!!), etc
my fanciful wishlist:
1. a little FM antenna that plugs in instead of having to drag out the earplugs.
2. a picture frame style kickstand so that it won't block the bottom edge yet allow easier access to ports and maybe allow for some sort of dock to satisfy everyone's needs.
3. space out the top buttons a bit to give you a better tactile feel.
4. a universal way to print in all applicable apps to any networked/shared printer. Why this hasn't been implemented in the very first incarnation of an ITT is beyond me.
what I DO NOT WANT:
1. tv connector? seriously? why the heck would you want that? What a waste of space and resources. Although adding to a 3rd party dock could solve this need.
2. a stupid keyboard. Owned the N810 for a month, found it underwhelming. Having to open the keyboard to use the Dpad was just a stupid design.
3. reduction on the number of SD slots or SD size.
4. no space eating wheels, circular pads, double pads, etc the more you add the crappier and crappier it will become and more crap to break.
5. The same team to design the N900 that designed the Nokia 770 or the N800. As functional as the Nokia 770 was (and how much better it could have been), the ITT unit itself was so damn ugly. The N800 wasn't so much ugly as it was just bland and uninspired. Please Nokia, get some real industrial designers and not the team that designs those horrid cheap cells you guys make. More japanese/scandanavian ergonomics and sleek design and less tacky euro feel.
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-09, 00:05
1. tv connector? seriously? why the heck would you want that? What a waste of space and resources. Although adding to a 3rd party dock could solve this need.
Why not? It's not actually a waste of space and resources, as the OMAPs already have TV-out hookups (they just need to be, well, hooked up) and you could add another wire to the 3.5mm jack to get composite out.
penguinbait
2008-04-09, 00:53
1024x600 and RAM and double processor speed.
Maybe I should be more clear, AT LEAST 512MB RAM
iamNarada
2008-04-09, 01:52
I only have a few things that I'd like to see in an iteration as close to release as a n900 series tablet, and I'll admit at the onset here that some of them can (and should) be addressed by OS/UI changes.
I'd like
-A screen size increase without, that is WITHOUT, a device size increase. If I look at the numbers for the n810, we could have a 5.78inch (146.9mm) screen if the whole front face was covered by the screen. Also, the surface of the screen to flush (heightwise) with the edges of the tablet, because maybe it's just my fingers, but I feel like sometimes using scroll bars and anything else at the edge of the screen gets to be a pain in the *** just because the edge of the tablet is keeping me from actually making good contact with screen.
-Haptic feedback from the screen to improve "button" press feedback.
-If the haptics feedback makes in it, some vibration alarms would be nice.
-802.11n support (with MIMO)
-Dual SD (full size please) card slots, with both or either supporting SDIO
-Maintaining the with and without QWERTY keyboard model lines (i.e. a 900 and a 910). And for the 910, more space between the top row of buttons and the bottom edge of the front face of the tablet
Ok, I think I've been pretty reasonable so far. The following is a little more pie in the skyish, but not completely unattainable.
Have the keyboard on the 910, rather than composed of individual buttons, be composed of an eINK (eink.com) touchscreen (with haptics) and therefore be reconfigurable, by user choice, or automatically depending on the app in the foreground.
OLED main screen (for more extensive color support, better battery life, thinness)
The noBounds project implemented.
Ok, I'll stop .....for now...and I apologize if I'm repeating things that people have already requested, I didn't go through all of the 35 preceding pages closely.
I only have a few things that I'd like to see in an iteration as close to release as a n900 series tablet, and I'll admit at the onset here that some of them can (and should) be addressed by OS/UI changes.
I'd like
-A screen size increase without, that is WITHOUT, a device size increase. If I look at the numbers for the n810, we could have a 5.78inch (146.9mm) screen if the whole front face was covered by the screen. Also, the surface of the screen to flush (heightwise) with the edges of the tablet, because maybe it's just my fingers, but I feel like sometimes using scroll bars and anything else at the edge of the screen gets to be a pain in the *** just becuase the edge of the tablet is keeping me from actually making good contact with screen.
Bezelless is asking for broken screens, so I differ (strongly) with you there. And I like my d-pad (on the N800), and would like ABCD buttons on the other side; so increasing the physical screen larger would be troublesome for me.
Have the keyboard on the 910, rather than composed of individual buttons, be composed of an eINK (eink.com) touchscreen (with haptics) and therefore be reconfigurable, by user choice, or automatically depending on the app in the foreground.Seems to me that this largely ruins the principle benefit of the N810's keyboard over OSK, unless the haptics here are inexplicably better than in the OSK.
Still, I guess some two-panel eink and LCD/OLED solution (I'm thinking flippable clamshell) does offer more display space total, more interaction space total, and the best of both worlds. Think e-book reader that shuts off the display and shows the book on the "keypad" side of the device. It's just gonna be awful expensive, and hard to get right.
iamNarada
2008-04-09, 02:52
So I was reading through some more of the older posts in this thread, and I see that most of the stuff I mentioned was talked about in one form or another (sorry). So, ..this is more of a question to all of you out there who are more in the know than me about this stuff. I was a couple of posts going back and forth about whether or not to include a SIM slot and and a HSDPA/3.5G chipset. The question I have: how is including WiMax better than including a 3.5G chipset? And when I say better I mean from the standpoint of not being tied to a single provider and all of the regulatory (FCC) hoops that have to be jumped through to include it. If I understand how it currently stands (please correct me if I'm wrong about this) Sprint is the only carrier/provider interested in developing WiMax, with both AT&T and Verizon going LTE (though at different frequencies) to fulfill their 4G network ambitions. With regards to battery life...WiFi/WiMax uses less than 3.5G? (Honestly asking!) So if I were to turn the GSM radio in my N96 (hypothetically speaking of course, since neither I nor anyone else has one) off and proceed to browse/VOIP/whatever just over WiFi, I'd get longer battery life than if I did the converse (WiFi off, GSM on)? And to forestall flamethrowage, I'm not advocating either or, just seeking enlightenment!
iamNarada
2008-04-09, 03:08
Bezelless is asking for broken screens, so I differ (strongly) with you there.
Hmmm... Am I misunderstanding what you mean by bezelless? There seem to any number of devices with their touch screens flush with the edge of the device. Iphone? Ipod Touch? The Nokia Tube? I'll freely admit to not owning any of them, but I haven't heard reports of rampant screen breakage either.
And yes, as you mentioned, the primary advantage of an eInk based keyboard relative to the onscreen keyboard, would lie in increased display/interaction space and it's capacity to be reconfigured on the fly depending on application. I guess the only advantage it would hold over actually hardware keys would be the reconfigurability and the possibility of using it as a display (ebook) in addition to using it as a input. I mean conceivably you could get the same by including a second display, either LCD or OLED or what ever, but I figured eInk was cheaper, better energy efficiency since it's bistable (read: battery life).
Hmmm... Am I misunderstanding what you mean by bezelless? There seem to any number of devices with their touch screens flush with the edge of the device. Iphone? Ipod Touch? The Nokia Tube? I'll freely admit to not owning any of them, but I haven't heard reports of rampant screen breakage either.
The HP49G+. Grrrrrr.... Proud owner of one. Now with a broken display.
While rampant is too strong a word, I think there's more of those devices broken than there ought to be; scratches too, from sliding on flat surfaces, though those are typically prevented by as much as a ridge along one side of the screen. I think they've eased the bezel angle a good bit on the N810, haven't gotten my hands on one yet, but it looks good. I'll admit the N800's is a bit steep, but the solution (I feel) lies with shallower angles, not reduced (or removed) depth. Oh, and half (2 out of 4) the iPhones whose owners I know wear protective silicone or hard cases, which give you an artificial bezel anyway.And yes, as you mentioned, the primary advantage of an eInk based keyboard relative to the onscreen keyboard, would lie in increased display/interaction space and it's capacity to be reconfigured on the fly depending on application. I guess the only advantage it would hold over actually hardware keys would be the reconfigurability and the possibility of using it as a display (ebook) in addition to using it as a input. I mean conceivably you could get the same by including a second display, either LCD or OLED or what ever, but I figured eInk was cheaper, better energy efficiency since it's bistable (read: battery life).
Maybe not n900, but n910 definitely:
holographic projection & capture
teleportation network between the devices
mind reading for easier controls
for the n900, I'd settle only for:
future prediction
antigravitational pad to make it weightless
:D considering when the n910 will be out (looking at the time elapsed beteen device), this might actually happen :D
note: i'm not complaining; every device (except n810) had great improvements
speculatrix
2008-04-10, 17:15
well, if we're going to get carried away... I think the stylus should be telescopic and have a second use as a light-sabre, and the pop-out webcam should have the memory-wipe feature from M-I-B.
Redshift
2008-04-10, 18:25
If it's bezel-less and completely flat you can just apply protective film across the whole surface? And if that gets scratched up too much just remove it and replace it with another? That's what I've done with my iPhone. It's also less dirty as there's not a crevice where dirt can accumulate.
I second the concerns with the usability of the touchscreen due to the bezel. On my N810, before applying the fat scrollbar hack, when I was running the web browser in fullscreen mode I could not scroll with my finger, I had to break out the stylus. I was able to scroll vertically in the non-full screen mode because it's offset from the edge by 10 pixels). I definitely think if there wasn't a bezel you'd have a bit more usable real estate on the screen.
The HP49G+. Grrrrrr.... Proud owner of one. Now with a broken display.
While rampant is too strong a word, I think there's more of those devices broken than there ought to be; scratches too, from sliding on flat surfaces, though those are typically prevented by as much as a ridge along one side of the screen. I think they've eased the bezel angle a good bit on the N810, haven't gotten my hands on one yet, but it looks good. I'll admit the N800's is a bit steep, but the solution (I feel) lies with shallower angles, not reduced (or removed) depth. Oh, and half (2 out of 4) the iPhones whose owners I know wear protective silicone or hard cases, which give you an artificial bezel anyway.
Scratches, yes; but all the protective films in the world won't save a screen from crushing while leaving the touchscreen workable. I have no problem hitting the scrollbars with my finger on the N800, and I don't have small fingers. I just lay my thumb against the bezel and slide it up and down. For cleaning, the N800's faceplate pops off quite easily; I do that every month or so to clean the whole screen. A little less convenient, but I'll put up with it...
To each his own; I just wish there was a way to make the bezel user-selectable; unfortunately, the only way I can see is to make a flat-faced device and rely on aftermarket cases that provide a bezel, and something tells me there won't be as many aftermarket accessories available for the N900 as the iPhone. :(
Redshift
2008-04-10, 19:05
Ahh, thanks for clarifying your concern. Yes, if the device is placed upside down you'd be putting needless stress on the surface of the LCD. I've never even *thought* of doing so with any of my devices but I suppose someone might be careless and this might result in cracks in the LCD.
I can't test it now that I have fat scrollbars but yes it definitely wasn't registering in fullscreen mode.
Scratches, yes; but all the protective films in the world won't save a screen from crushing while leaving the touchscreen workable. I have no problem hitting the scrollbars with my finger on the N800, and I don't have small fingers. I just lay my thumb against the bezel and slide it up and down. For cleaning, the N800's faceplate pops off quite easily; I do that every month or so to clean the whole screen. A little less convenient, but I'll put up with it...
To each his own; I just wish there was a way to make the bezel user-selectable; unfortunately, the only way I can see is to make a flat-faced device and rely on aftermarket cases that provide a bezel, and something tells me there won't be as many aftermarket accessories available for the N900 as the iPhone. :(
Well, not putting the device upside down (I don't see any reason for putting a device screen-down on a flat surface, either), rather in a pocket of a backpack. Same pocket my HP48 lived in happily for years. But the textbooks inside the backpack did a number on the HP49+. Short of mounting "armor" on it, or sliding it into a hard case, there's really nothing convenient to be done when you need to carry such a device around with books.
iamNarada
2008-04-10, 19:28
To be honest, Redshift hit on what I didn't say explicitly. The bezel is an issue if you're using primary your finger rather than a stylus. The other solution to make the NIT more finger friendly is to adjust the UI, like they did with the menus for OS2008 (which I've only heard about and not see myself, since I'm still on 2007HE). That is one of the things that I would like to see; the 900s continue on in the direction of more finger friendliness. Of course fattening the scroll bar (which hack was that? Is it available for the 770?) reduces some of the screen real estate, but I guess we can't have everything.
That's just tweaking a GTK theme, you can do it on a 770, if you like, but I don't expect the .debs will work right. (Search for "scrool bar" [sic], you'll find it.)
Maybe not n900, but n910 definitely:
holographic projection & capture
teleportation network between the devices
mind reading for easier controls
for the n900, I'd settle only for:
future prediction
antigravitational pad to make it weightless
:D considering when the n910 will be out (looking at the time elapsed beteen device), this might actually happen :D
note: i'm not complaining; every device (except n810) had great improvements
i think bug labs have a teleportation addon planed for their device ;)
iamNarada
2008-04-11, 01:01
How about some form of eye tracking software using the embedded webcam camera, so that you can use your eye as a stylus? And while I'm off in left end of the plausibility field, how about we just dispense with the screen all together and incorporate one of Microvision's (microvision.com) retina painting display systems.
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-11, 01:13
And while I'm off in left end of the plausibility field, how about we just dispense with the screen all together and incorporate one of Microvision's (microvision.com) retina painting display systems.
I'll see your retinal projector and raise you Nokia's Internet Tabletification Program (http://youtube.com/watch?v=3clVvh5gbGE) (Beware! Only a Paladin with a high constitution should watch the tape!).
Indecipherable screenshot for the weak willed:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/images/quake4_strogify6.jpg
iamNarada
2008-04-11, 01:22
I....I think I'm going to pass on that. It didn't seem very sanitary. I mean, how often do they clean all that medical equipment!?
I want a flush-screen device, that is both attractive and ergonomically comfortable. The N800 is great, but I think it could improve in both areas.
I'm thinking a similar display with larger buttons and less empty space on the face of the device. The buttons as they are don't work very well for extended use, on the go, or in the dark.
Ditch the keyboard and add haptics, to make the on screen keyboard that much better. Get rid of a speaker if we need to save space - stereo isn't that big of a deal.
Get us drivers for the graphics chip - there's nothing more frustrating than watching chunky video or tearing in apps like canola when we have capable hardware sitting right there inside the device.
SDHC cards are awesome, and 2 slots is hard to beat. Please keep them both.
TV out - again, it is sitting in the device right now, and will be one more awesome benefit for minimal effort.
Better sound prioritizing - make it so sound doesn't skip, jump, distort, or hiss - this device is begging to be a media monster.
Accelerometers. IR. GPS - Nice, but not a priority.
Extensive polish of default software. I have a calendar on my phone for crying out loud, and it is absurd that I don't even have a basic app for this. Make everything more friendly, pretty, and stable.
Really, I have to say the N800 is a heck of a device, and has been one of the only purchases ever that doesn't seem to get the "new" worn off. It is just so far ahead of it's time that I feel like I'm looking at the future every time I discover a new app. Right now, the only thing it needs is refinement, and carrying out the basic concept to the logical conclusion that everyone envisions with these devices. If anything - don't go crazy with features; we could have a real winner that appeals to more than just passionate nerds (myself) as long as design and polish made priorities.
I would disagree with having larger scroll bars, icons is the only way to go. We should have an option to choose a finger optimized interface or stylus optimized one. While i love using fingers on occasion, having big fat scroll bar/bigger links will always means less screen estate. You will need scrol morel to see everything in file managers, websites which is a pain if you need to be productive. In os2008 the interface is neither here nor there. We still see tiny links on websites that needs unnecessary zooming to bring it up to same sixe as the other interface icons.
We already have a meager 800x480 screen so i am not sure want to see precious screen estate wasted by "finger friendly scroll bars or tool bars at the bottom. A less recessed or so called bezelless screen would solve some of the problems caused by side scroll bar. Which brings me to another problem on OS2008: poor drag scroll response on the micro-b browser and its crawling speed on many common websites. Why cant we have at least option for a less full feature but ACTUALLY useable browser like on OS2007? Sorry back to the topic. A side scroll bar (fat or thin) wont even be need if the browser itself scrolls fast and easily with drag scroll.
Beside the usual more ram/flash/cpu/dsp that will come anyway, a few things that are more design options and that are doable with existing technology:
- Alsmot full device size screen, with 1024x600 resolution (this would have almost the same dpi and allow most web site and applications to run natively), with hardware buttons moved to all 4 sides (active side selectable for right/left hand, and portrait/landscape, ideally selected through accelerometer) so they all fall under the thumb.
- High-capacity battery option with a battery position that will tilt slightly the screen like on most laptops.
- Touchpad on the slide-out keyboard and small clickable trackball on the side.
- SDIO, which implies at least one full SD slot. I could sacrify a few add'l mm in thickness for that.
- Tropicalized version (rain&sand) like the ToughBooks.
Last but not leasts:
- DOCKING STATION, with charging/full size powered usb hub/IR receiver, so we can use it as a home/car small media center/gaming/GPS and connect external 5.1 sound card, external video card, external hard drive, etc. through USB just by dropping the IT in the docking station. The docking station should of course be small enough to be usable in car too (In fact I plan to make one for the N770 using the hard cover since all connectors are on the same side)
Then, there's the software wish list but we don't need Nokia for that, do we?
- PIM with SyncML a bit easier to configure than GPE
- Hand-free operation of cell-phone similar to what you find in modern cars
- Multiplatform automated media syncing software for PCs (like what WMP11 does).
Now, there's two we need Nokia:
- Fully finger-friendly OS
- Fully finger-scroll OS (No more nail tip sized scroll bar)
Krystan
Just to make sure they are mentioned ::::: THE SPEAKERS. ~I LOVe THEM.
They can take my ears as long as they leave the speakers !
I will not buy a 900 without SPEAKERS !!!!!
Abel.
(And Diablo fo course !!)
It's funny to see the remarks about a flush screen after what I saw on my flight over here to Helsinki.
A guy on the next row and up a seat was watching a movie on a tablet that looked to be the same size as an N810. I kept looking for a logo but couldn't see one. When he was done, I asked him what the device was-- turned out to be an iPod Touch. What made it look odd was that he had added a plastic protector to it-- that made the screen recessed just like the N810's.
So I think I see the solution to make both parties happy here... :D
- N810ish form factor
- Dual SD (even if it makes the device thicker)
- charge via micro USB
- active/hard touchscreen
- Fewer buttons (think apple has the correct idea here)
- better battery life
- improved browser (this will happen with or without nokia...)
- finish the conversion to finger controls... Readon
- mesh networking
- 802.11g/n (wimax optional)
We do not have a lot of screen space. Now we waste quite a bit for scroll bars etc. Why not use a transparent interface? If you touch in an area that can show a control it shows (transparently). Next touch(s) let you play with the control. After a configurable interval with no activity the controls fade away.
For status areas I would encourage all application to make them hideable via a transparent control (eg touch the lower left corner and a control appears, touch it again and you have a status/input area - much easier than hunting trough a menu)
With standard positions and sizes for transparent controls we could get rid of the need for many of the buttons.
something like this might be workable (user testing needed)
upper left - touch to get menus
upper right - touch to get /fullscreen/minimize/close buttons
lower right - touch to get non transparent status bar
lower left - touch to get non transparent input bar (or toggle full screen input eg for a drawing program)
bottom (above status bar & keyboard, if displayed) - scrollbar
right - scrollbar
top - zoom scrollbar
left - application specific (eg back/forward/home/bookmarks buttons for a browser)
Comments?
MurphysPub
2008-04-13, 23:41
Would it be unreasonable to stick an atom proc in an nx00 device?
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-14, 00:58
Would it be unreasonable to stick an atom proc in an nx00 device?
Unrealistic and stupid. There's a thread around where a lot of highly intelligent and informed people will tell you exactly why it's a bad idea. :D
meanwhile
2008-04-14, 15:24
er, a version that's a small touchscreen internet tablet (similar to the N810) that reveals a button layout so you can game like it's a Nintendo DS (I haven't used a DS). Keep the camera, etc. and keep it so fbreader is just as convenient to use. I don't know if that's realistic because I can't think of how to pull it off well
I mainly would like to see convenient to carry around in regular pocket (or belt loop or anyhow?) and designed to be usable for 3+ years to get the most value I realistically can
Right now the N800 is inbetween cargo pocket vs regular pocket, go one way or the other ;)
That's a great product idea - you might be able to get rid of the slider though with buttons on the side of the case combined with accelerometers - make the thing a Wii and its controller combined.
+Dual core processor (2x500+)
+More and faster RAM
+More tactile keyboard with Arrows
+Longer life battery
+Editable, dedicated face buttons with D-Pad
+Better FINGER recognition
+Better video processor with more codecs
+Improved network speeds via BT and Wi-Fi
+With improvements, a comparative price point to the N8X0
+Keyboard light stays on when it is open or a dedicated key/switch
Not necessary, but wouldn't mind
+True HD res
+16+ Million color screen
+Better Video Cam (can it get any worse?)
+A stand that actually works in multiple positions
+Move the light sensor to the middle
+Move the usb port so I can plug it in w/o having to use the stand
+Higher volume output with EQ
+Any percent zoom in MicroB
iamNarada
2008-04-17, 15:28
How about UWB (google it), for communications and personal radar? As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), you can run Bluetooth, USB, IEE 1394 protocols over UWB.
lhanneus
2008-04-17, 23:07
With Wimax, it should be able to implement an intelligent traffic "Jam detector" with the GPS and Map software.
Like I'm driving and suddenly , it's slow but it's a high-way :
So the software should be enought intelligent or Directly asking the user if he is in a traffic jam or stop at a redligh or for personal use.
And this information should be use to inform the other on the traffic map.
It could too calculate the midle time of the red light who sometimes are really long, to calculate the real quickest way.
If a lot of people has that kind of engine, a real map of the traffic can be done and should be usefull for all the user.
whatever7
2008-04-18, 10:55
Not on the 900 but on the next evoluton after than I hope Nokia usa the Atom process. I would like to emulate/virtualize win98/XP.
As for n900, I need a SD/CF/XD memory card reader than has a mini USB plug.
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-18, 10:59
Not on the 900 but on the next evoluton after than I hope Nokia usa the Atom process. I would like to emulate/virtualize win98/XP.
Ah, another fan of zero battery life.
it seems that some have gotten the "only X86 is a computer cpu" meme ;)
iamNarada
2008-04-20, 05:33
Ok, new desire for the next generation tablet. Welllll, I'll be honest and say up front that it doesn't actually have anything to do with the tablet itself, and could be implemented now, with the current tablets (770/n800/n810). Rather it is more of a marketing approach. It is this, included free wifi on some network, my personal preference being ATT(pretty damn unlikely) or Starbucks(possibly maybe?). Before the flamage starts, let me say there is a precedence, and by a .....competitor of the NITs no less. Sony includes free WiFi access at McDonalds with their Mylo2 internet tablet wannabe. I'm just sayin...
Ideally, I'd like to see more choice:
-a 1024x600 5" screened device with a slide-out keyboard (and maybe a tilting sliding mechanism like the HTC Shift has)
-a 800x480 3.5" screened device without keyboard, but <12mm thick; with a couple of media playback control buttons (or mappable multi-purpose buttons);
Both versions should be running on a OMAP3-based platform, offer dual microSD slots and plenty of RAM. Built-in screen orientation change options would be nice as well (maybe accelerometer-supported?)...
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-20, 11:16
Ideally, I'd like to see more choice:
I'm with you here, but the platform isn't quite large enough to support a significant variety of devices (especially devices that deviate from eachother significantly specifications-side). But looking towards the future, diversification is most certainly something Nokia will have to do.
iontruo2
2008-04-20, 11:55
I'd like to see in the N900, better input options in pen or voice.
If they are not going to move forward with better writing recognition, then why not implement an alternative virtual keyboard?
I know the community has already shown variations recently to accommodate other languages. I realize FITALY is licensed but I saw a link to a windows guy who easily mod'ed to a FITNALY layout. It is renowned for its optimized input.
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/utilities/64806-better-fitaly-five-bucks.html
The QWERTY layout is just plain sad after all the years and inhibits good/fast pen input.
I can't example much for the cause of 'voice input', but I have seen a few very promising options in recent years.
tabletrat
2008-04-20, 12:00
I'd like to see in the N900, better input options in pen or voice.
If they are not going to move forward with better writing recognition, then why not implement an alternative virtual keyboard?
I know the community has already shown variations recently to accommodate other languages. I realize FITALY is licensed but I saw a link to a windows guy who easily mod'ed to a FITNALY layout. It is renowned for its optimized input.
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/utilities/64806-better-fitaly-five-bucks.html
The QWERTY layout is just plain sad after all the years and inhibits good/fast pen input.
It is, but people like it. If you try and market soemthing with a keyboard device that isn't ascii, it will be rejected. Maybe as an option.
I tried FITALY, but really didn't get on with it.
I would like to see a keyboard that didn't take over the whole screen though, like a transparent floating one.
Karel Jansens
2008-04-20, 17:41
It is, but people like it. If you try and market soemthing with a keyboard device that isn't ascii, it will be rejected. Maybe as an option.
I tried FITALY, but really didn't get on with it.
I would like to see a keyboard that didn't take over the whole screen though, like a transparent floating one.
"ascii" "keyboard"? ;)
tabletrat
2008-04-20, 18:13
sorry - qwerty!
Although .. I guess it is an ascii keyboard too!
iontruo2
2008-04-20, 20:54
It is, but people like it. If you try and market soemthing with a keyboard device that isn't ascii, it will be rejected. Maybe as an option.
I tried FITALY, but really didn't get on with it.
I would like to see a keyboard that didn't take over the whole screen though, like a transparent floating one.
I get your idea. Sounds good. :D Seems possible now we are seeing more and more of that in the desktop environment.
I know 'qwerty' is well entrenched and familiar to many, and I found 'fitaly' quicker but it did require some 'learning curve', so-to-speak.
I do like the pen for input and the tablet does indeed focus there, they just need to refine the 'recognition' to be more natural. Its already been demonstrated as possible on other platforms. Format of a Tablet, the pen is still highly instinctive for many people with that premise of a 'tablet'.
I know I might be dreaming a little on Voice options, but hey, I have seen an example of sorts in Voice Navigate on Palm a while back.
Just opening a thought to input refinement... outside of the simplified finger input styles that are emerging most recently.
Karel Jansens
2008-04-20, 21:11
I was told in so many words by a Nokia employee (Roope Rainisto) that Nokia does not consider a stylus-based interface as the way to go ahead with the Itablets. Here:
http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/more-user-interface-generalisations-the-consistency-myth/#comments
(Look for comment # 7)
That was basically my cue to no longer consider Nokia's tablets as something for future interest (a nice way to say I won't be buying another one. Ever again), as I consider finger-driven interfaces (the only other logical path to follow) as something for gadgets, not computers.
sjgadsby
2008-04-20, 22:36
"ascii" "keyboard"?
Just so long as it's not an EBCDIC keyboard. You need some huge freaking hands to reach across the gaps between "I" & "J" and "R" & "S" while typing. Stupid design.
iamNarada
2008-04-20, 23:04
That was basically my cue to no longer consider Nokia's tablets as something for future interest (a nice way to say I won't be buying another one. Ever again), as I consider finger-driven interfaces (the only other logical path to follow) as something for gadgets, not computers.
Why does a finger-driven interface preclude the device's use as a computer? Or rather, what do you do with a stylus on your tablet that raises it to the level of a computer that you wouldn't or couldn't do in a finger driven interface?
tabletrat
2008-04-20, 23:22
Why does a finger-driven interface preclude the device's use as a computer? Or rather, what do you do with a stylus on your tablet that raises it to the level of a computer that you wouldn't or couldn't do in a finger driven interface?
A handwritten interface.
I must admit, 10 years past the introduction of the Newton 2x00 it is unbelievable how not only has portable computing failed to move forwards, it has taken huge strides backwards in many ways.
iamNarada
2008-04-20, 23:44
A handwritten interface.
When you say handwritten interface, are you referring primarily to handwriting recognition for text entry? (I'm assuming you are ....correct me) and saying that this is advantageous because of increased input speed, ease of use....? I didn't get to use the Newton (before my time), and I haven't used the handwriting capabilities of my NIT, so I'm honestly at a lost as to the killer app that comes with the stylus and/or a handwriting interface.
Karel Jansens
2008-04-21, 09:51
When you say handwritten interface, are you referring primarily to handwriting recognition for text entry? (I'm assuming you are ....correct me) and saying that this is advantageous because of increased input speed, ease of use....? I didn't get to use the Newton (before my time), and I haven't used the handwriting capabilities of my NIT, so I'm honestly at a lost as to the killer app that comes with the stylus and/or a handwriting interface.
If you make a small computer-like device, you can go three ways:
1) Make it keyboard-centric, in which case you're basically going to produce a Psion (or a Pandora -- hehe); the clamshell design has (for the user, that is) several clear advantages, such as compactness, built-in screen protection and recognizeability. The user interface can be great (Psion's SIBO and EPOC are simply marvelous) or quite stupid (the Wince crowd), but simple text entering will always be quite straightforward. The reason I preferred Psion's offerings to Wincies, is that Psions have always been real, standalone computers, which allowed the user to do everything he could do on his Big Box.
2) You could decide to make a tablet, and then the user interface suddenly becomes very important: A tablet cannot be interacted with in the same way as a keyboarded computer, at least not without invoking serious frustration from the user. There have been two good tablet interfaces sofar: Palm and Newton. Palms however were always designed as computer companions, not primary devices; the Newton OTOH was designed from the ground up as a stylus-operated, handwriting-centric main computer.
3) The thrid choice is to make a content-serving device, or what is basically known as a PMP. There's gazillions of them around and they're quite good at serving up content, but pretty lousy at actually processing stuff.
It seems to me Nokia tried to market a PMP as a portable computer...
benny1967
2008-04-21, 11:07
Why does a finger-driven interface preclude the device's use as a computer? Or rather, what do you do with a stylus on your tablet that raises it to the level of a computer that you wouldn't or couldn't do in a finger driven interface?
Maybe it's my complete lack of imagination, but when I look at the clumsy, big UI-elements of finger driven devices (and this includes those absurdly big menus and scrollbars in OS2008), I don't see how they could efficiently handle menus and dialogues with lots of options.
Somthing like XChat, for example, with its sub-menus and 100 options... it's hard for me to imagine how a finger-driven UI could handle all this without breaking it down into even more sub-menus and sub-sub-windows/tabs, thus making it totally unusable.
(But, as I said, maybe it's just my lack of imagination. Surprise me with something that works. I still wouldn't use it because I hate finger taps on my screen, but it'd be interesting to see.)
I was told in so many words by a Nokia employee (Roope Rainisto) that Nokia does not consider a stylus-based interface as the way to go ahead with the Itablets. Here:
http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/more-user-interface-generalisations-the-consistency-myth/#comments
(Look for comment # 7)
That was basically my cue to no longer consider Nokia's tablets as something for future interest (a nice way to say I won't be buying another one. Ever again), as I consider finger-driven interfaces (the only other logical path to follow) as something for gadgets, not computers.
I think you're overreacting to Roope's comments. What he said does not preclude stylus HWR... just that he believes the main focus should be on finger friendliness.
I'm an employee too... and many times what I say about direction is my own opinion. ;)
I'm happy with the n800 and a usb keyboard at home
but
I would buy a n900 with :
770 form factor with hard cover
2 full size sdhc or al least 2 microSDHC slots
1 regular usb female connector for USBdrive and external USB keyboards
a bit faster CPU and a bit more RAm than the n8x0 for better Flash experience
GPS and Blutooth (but I don't use any of them right now)
WiFi
gamepad style hardware buttons layout
no slide out keyboard with "soon-to-die" flexible cable.
a fully open kernel and drivers to leave us the choice of windows manager instead of Hildonized crap.
Karel Jansens
2008-04-21, 12:24
I think you're overreacting to Roope's comments. What he said does not preclude stylus HWR... just that he believes the main focus should be on finger friendliness.
I'm an employee too... and many times what I say about direction is my own opinion. ;)
Ship has sailed.
If I'm not going to see another decent pocketable tablet (at least one that can hold its head against my Newtons, I'm going to get the best possible pocketable keyboard-based device.
And that's definitely not the N810...
benny1967
2008-04-21, 12:27
I would buy a n900 with :
770 form factor with hard cover
same here. really miss the cover and the large buttons on top.
benny1967
2008-04-21, 12:40
BTW: What I'd really like to see on the N900 is the possibility to make them multi-user devices with a graphical login manager. (Default single user, something in the settings changes it to multi.)
A lot of Tablets are used by more than 1 person; having a login and distinct data (bookmarks, mails...) would be a nice feature if it's not default.
BTW: What I'd really like to see on the N900 is the possibility to make them multi-user devices with a graphical login manager. (Default single user, something in the settings changes it to multi.)
A lot of Tablets are used by more than 1 person; having a login and distinct data (bookmarks, mails...) would be a nice feature if it's not default.
If I recall correctly, there is a proposal in Bugzilla for profiles, and it was well-received by maemo. I would imagine that would include logins...
a fully open kernel and drivers to leave us the choice of windows manager instead of Hildonized crap.
There are arguments for opening all kernel code, but that's not one of them.
If lack of a fully open kernel and modules is stopping window managers, why are K, openbox-rox, xfce, and icewm available? If your favorite WM's not available yet, it's not because we don't have kernel source, it's just because no one who likes it is as ambitious as PenguinBait. :rolleyes:
it's just because no one who likes it is as ambitious as PenguinBait. :rolleyes:
And I sent him "thanks" and contribution for his time and efforts.
I don't need a finger friendly OS, I want a complete OS
I think a finger based ui or an option to have stylus ui would be good. Why not please both crowds. All it would take is a config option. I think it should have multitouch screen. I have one of the now rare fingerworks multitouch gesture keyboards. The ability to use gestures is just fantastic. I know that people think the iphone and itouch are overrated on the gesture features and that may be, but being able to zoom cut copy paste with simple gestures is a big big plus for me.
The other thing I think would be useful is to have a slot on the back that can accept wifi/extension cards. Kind of like a minipci. Perhaps just a regular SD slot but one that can have room for an antenna. I would like the device that I use to be able to support whatever gives me the best coverage for internet be it sprints wimax or google broadband or verizon 700mhz.
IMO the form factor should stay the same or have multiples to choose from. Any bigger and it gets hard to pocket/becomes a laptop. NITs shouldn't be in competition with eeepcs
Isaac.S
I would like to see a touch sensor that runs along the sides and top that can be used for a scroll wheel, zooming, and replaces the other buttons on the top. This would also allow programmable virtual buttons, like top buttons for gaming. This would also provide more input to decide when to autolock (http://www.ripplelabs.com/autolock.html).
iamNarada
2008-04-21, 16:37
If you make a small computer-like device, you can go three ways:
1) Make it keyboard-centric, in which case you're basically going to produce a Psion (or a Pandora -- hehe); the clamshell design has (for the user, that is) several clear advantages, such as compactness, built-in screen protection and recognizeability. The user interface can be great (Psion's SIBO and EPOC are simply marvelous) or quite stupid (the Wince crowd), but simple text entering will always be quite straightforward. The reason I preferred Psion's offerings to Wincies, is that Psions have always been real, standalone computers, which allowed the user to do everything he could do on his Big Box.
2) You could decide to make a tablet, and then the user interface suddenly becomes very important: A tablet cannot be interacted with in the same way as a keyboarded computer, at least not without invoking serious frustration from the user. There have been two good tablet interfaces sofar: Palm and Newton. Palms however were always designed as computer companions, not primary devices; the Newton OTOH was designed from the ground up as a stylus-operated, handwriting-centric main computer.
3) The thrid choice is to make a content-serving device, or what is basically known as a PMP. There's gazillions of them around and they're quite good at serving up content, but pretty lousy at actually processing stuff.
It seems to me Nokia tried to market a PMP as a portable computer...
Hmmm, unassailable breakdown. Well, I completely agree with you regarding the ease of input that comes with a well implemented hardware keyboard. Now, I'm not sure, as in I have not used, a thumbsized keyboard for anything serious, so I'm not sure how convinced I am of it's utility in the larger scheme of things, say when I'd like to use the IT as a laptop replacement. I guess, if I were to be completely honest, I'd like to see Nokia implement a "profile" manager, with a "lightweight" profile comprising a finger driven UI(and perhaps the majority of the functions accessible in this profile would be PMP functions), a "welterweight" profile comprising a stylus driven UI (menus galore, options by the thousands), and a "heavyweight" profile which assumes that you have a keyboard (bluetooth) and intend to use the IT as a laptop replacement.
I'd like to see Nokia implement a "profile" manager, with a "lightweight" profile comprising a finger driven UI(and perhaps the majority of the functions accessible in this profile would be PMP functions), a "welterweight" profile comprising a stylus driven UI (menus galore, options by the thousands), and a "heavyweight" profile which assumes that you have a keyboard (bluetooth) and intend to use the IT as a laptop replacement.
something like the eee "easy" or "expert" profiles. one is finger based and will do basic stuff like a itouch and the other like a 500mhz laptop with a full blown linux distro.
tabletrat
2008-04-21, 17:29
When you say handwritten interface, are you referring primarily to handwriting recognition for text entry? (I'm assuming you are ....correct me) and saying that this is advantageous because of increased input speed, ease of use....? I didn't get to use the Newton (before my time), and I haven't used the handwriting capabilities of my NIT, so I'm honestly at a lost as to the killer app that comes with the stylus and/or a handwriting interface.
Well, don't confuse the handwriting of the NIT with the newton. The newton had proper handwriting recognition that worked, but more than that, the newton was designed to be used with a pen in that everything was designed to be used with handwriting that made sense to do so, or failing that, widgets designed to be used with a pen. The NIT is based on a small computer system, designed to be used with a keyboard and mouse, with an onscreen keyboard to make up for the lack of keyboard.
It went way beyond just typing (remembering that you didn't have to convert handwriting on the newton - it was happy to leave it there). If you want to copy text from one application to another on the newton (not always that necessary as other applications could read the data), you selected the text and dragged it to the edge of the screen. It stuck there. Then you switched to the other application (it didn't have the one application thing in front like maemo) and dragged it back.
When someone goes on about the newton people think 'oh it was the handwriting recognition', but although the handwriting recognition was excelent (in fact pretty unbeaten for conversion until the tablet PC), what really set the newton apart is that every part was designed from scratch to be used purely with a pen, rather than squashed down from a desktop user interface.
iamNarada
2008-04-21, 17:54
Fair enough, a pen/stylus optimized UI. Not adapted from anything else, but designed from scratch specifically for pen use. I'd like that, but as an option. Honestly, I can't write with a pen as fast a I can with a keyboard, and there are instances when it's easier to just use my finger. I'd like all three. Admittedly, I haven't programmed anything since the one class I had (a thousand years ago) as an undergrad, so I don't know how involved (read: doable) it is to implement multiple UI and be able to switch between them. Maybe it is unreasonable, but that doesn't stop me from wanting it :P.
I think you're overreacting to Roope's comments. What he said does not preclude stylus HWR... just that he believes the main focus should be on finger friendliness.
I'm an employee too... and many times what I say about direction is my own opinion. ;)
Hi. For the specific issue of handwriting, I do stand by my original comment. Any sensible form of handwriting requires stylus usage, and therefore a stylus usable UI. It would make very little sense to go towards finger usability while insisting on a stylus usable input method.
As a purely personal opinion, the stylus must be killed, the sooner the better. It's good for specific limited operations, but it's about the single geekiest part of using a PDA or a tablet. Mass market acceptance will never come with a device requiring extensive use of the stylus. The slideout keyboard in the N810 is the first stab in the physical domain, but for the health of the platform the onscreen methods need also to be kept healthy.
Practically I see also very little interest in handwriting solutions, even those that Karel is praising. If HWR really would be the killer input method, those solutions would be very much more popular than what they are. The situation is of course different with certain scripts, like Japanese and Chinese, but for Western input the virtual keyboards are simply faster to use and require much less effort, both physically and mentally from the users than what handwriting does. I don't see this changing. If Apple owns the Best Ever handwriting input method and engine, then I don't really see much light coming even from their direction in this issue.
Then again, I'm only an interaction designer. If some manager higher up wishes otherwise, then what I say has rather little significance. :)
Maybe it's my complete lack of imagination, but when I look at the clumsy, big UI-elements of finger driven devices (and this includes those absurdly big menus and scrollbars in OS2008), I don't see how they could efficiently handle menus and dialogues with lots of options.
Somthing like XChat, for example, with its sub-menus and 100 options... it's hard for me to imagine how a finger-driven UI could handle all this without breaking it down into even more sub-menus and sub-sub-windows/tabs, thus making it totally unusable.
(But, as I said, maybe it's just my lack of imagination. Surprise me with something that works. I still wouldn't use it because I hate finger taps on my screen, but it'd be interesting to see.)
I'd say the right solution would be not to have 100 different options for a small application. Once again imho it has vastly too much settings, I'm a rather advanced user and still even I have difficulties in actually doing anything sensible with those settings.
tabletrat
2008-04-21, 18:14
Practically I see also very little interest in handwriting solutions, even those that Karel is praising. If HWR really would be the killer input method, those solutions would be very much more popular than what they are. The situation is of course different with certain scripts, like Japanese and Chinese, but for Western input the virtual keyboards are simply faster to use and require much less effort, both physically and mentally from the users than what handwriting does.
I find handwriting much faster than a virtual keyboard. Nowhere near as fast as a real keyboard.
I don't see this changing. If Apple owns the Best Ever handwriting input method and engine, then I don't really see much light coming even from their direction in this issue.
Apple don't though. All they have is the rosetta printed writing engine which is no better than anyone else.
Microsoft appear to have the proper handwriting stuff now, and I beleive it is built into vista. However it is only there as a little option, as all you can do with it is use it in place of text fields, which is little to no advantage.
Hi. For the specific issue of handwriting, I do stand by my original comment. Any sensible form of handwriting requires stylus usage, and therefore a stylus usable UI. It would make very little sense to go towards finger usability while insisting on a stylus usable input method.
As a purely personal opinion, the stylus must be killed, the sooner the better. It's good for specific limited operations, but it's about the single geekiest part of using a PDA or a tablet. Mass market acceptance will never come with a device requiring extensive use of the stylus. The slideout keyboard in the N810 is the first stab in the physical domain, but for the health of the platform the onscreen methods need also to be kept healthy.
Practically I see also very little interest in handwriting solutions, even those that Karel is praising. If HWR really would be the killer input method, those solutions would be very much more popular than what they are. The situation is of course different with certain scripts, like Japanese and Chinese, but for Western input the virtual keyboards are simply faster to use and require much less effort, both physically and mentally from the users than what handwriting does. I don't see this changing. If Apple owns the Best Ever handwriting input method and engine, then I don't really see much light coming even from their direction in this issue.
Then again, I'm only an interaction designer. If some manager higher up wishes otherwise, then what I say has rather little significance. :)
Obviously we see things differently.
I agree to the extent that the UI should heavily favor finger usage-- but I also believe the stylus should be kept and highly-specific functions for it be supported-- including HWR. I don't know what such an approach would hurt. Let users who wish to do so pull the stylus out when it suits them.
benny1967
2008-04-21, 18:28
I'd say the right solution would be not to have 100 different options for a small application. Once again imho it has vastly too much settings, I'm a rather advanced user and still even I have difficulties in actually doing anything sensible with those settings.
Well, there are applications that need many options. I use Xchat *because* of its power. You can use others if you dont like that. Use notepad instead of word, the calculator instead of excel. It's all a matter of personal preference. Less options means less power, but it's easier to use then.
However, saying a UI can be overly simple because applications should not have many options in the first place is somewhat irritating.
I don't use xchat, so I don't know specifically, but I think that in general things with 100 options should be command line or config file based. Now things (like a word processor) with 100 actions are different, but if you've really got 100 settings, they don't belong in a menu or setting dialog; at best you might have a settings dialog for the most common ones, and good documentation for a config file for the rest...
Just my thoughts, and I know there'll be lots of disagreement on that. :)
Obviously we see things differently.
I agree to the extent that the UI should heavily favor finger usage-- but I also believe the stylus should be kept and highly-specific functions for it be supported-- including HWR. I don't know what such an approach would hurt. Let users who wish to do so pull the stylus out when it suits them.
There are many different answers to this issue, but right now I feel like quoting the 37signals blog:
http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/every_time_you_add_something_you_take_something_aw ay.php
"What’s the most ignored paradox in software development? Every time you add something you take something away.
Screen real estate. Interface clarity. Simplified testing. Shorter development time. Certainty. Agility. Managability. Familiarity. Adding anything dilutes everything else. That’s not always a bad thing, just be aware of it. Be aware of the trade-offs."
It's a very good statement, in its entirety. It's not always a bad thing, but all the listed elements there ring true.
I don't think that is a necessity in this case, though, ragnar. I believe the drawbacks are easily overcome... and a solution can easily stay out of the way of other usability.
I am an optimist when it comes to coding and UI design. 20+ years of doing it myself, on a wide variety of platforms, hasn't discouraged me yet. ;)
EDIT: besides, who's talking about adding anything? I'm just talking about keeping something already there and improving it.
brontide
2008-04-21, 19:27
If development was always a tradeoff we would still be using a terminal interface... sometimes you really do make legitimate progress in terms of usability. I dare say, warts aside, the Mobile OSX platform does reveal some very interesting UI/UX design features that I think deserve some attention by more mobile developers.
Tradeoff != zero-sum game.
If development was always a tradeoff we would still be using a terminal interface... sometimes you really do make legitimate progress in terms of usability. I dare say, warts aside, the Mobile OSX platform does reveal some very interesting UI/UX design features that I think deserve some attention by more mobile developers.
I agree with this completely. :)
sachin007
2008-04-21, 20:05
I go with texrat. The stylus is a wonderful thing when you play games like numpty physics, Lbreakout etc. Try playing those without the stylus!
And there is always the option of having two different profiles as someone else have already mentioned. The argument that the presence of a stylus putting the average noob off and away from the internet tablets is wrong as long as the advertisements show that both can be done.
Some apple fans think ..... just because Apple decided to go away from the stylus they think the stylus is a boring thing!
I can clearly see wonderful uses of the stylus like the sketch, numpty physics etc which are really "cool" stuff.
The stylus has to stay. After all the internet tablets considering the size and screen ..... are mostly intended for two hand use. So for a two handed input would it really matter if the second hand was replaced by a stylus? infact it is the other way. I would understand the lack of a stylus in a one handed device where the primary use would be the finger..... but not definitely on a two handed usable device.
I go with texrat.
Fine, but you're paying, and I pick the routes.
:p
tabletrat
2008-04-21, 20:15
Some apple fans think ..... just because Apple decided to go away from the stylus they think the stylus is a boring thing!
I am an apple fan.
I think the iPod is great because it doesn't need a stylus. I think the NITs would be useless without one.
Horses for courses really.
brontide
2008-04-21, 20:16
I go with texrat. The stylus is a wonderful thing when you play games like numpty physics, Lbreakout etc. Try playing those without the stylus!
Having the stylus is one thing, but I would like to see it's use in basic system interaction reduced or eliminated. 3rd party apps I could care less about, but I would hope they too would only *require it* when the situation calls for it.
I think it's possible to have the base software not require the stylus at all ( except for handwriting ). There is also a lot of useless interaction that should be tossed on the floor as well without loosing a single ounce of functionality.
Trying to do an hybrid stylus-/finger-based UI with an option is quite frankly the worst thing that could happen if you ask me.
Pick one, build everything according to the chosen philososphy - everything else will lead to an utterly inconsistent chaos.
And as the ultimate focus of the internet tablets just has to be the general public, instead of the comparably tiny Linux nerd/sys admin demographic (which I feel are the most vocal opponents of an simple, finger-based UI on here), I'd be absolutely happy to see an completely finger-optimized and largely consistent interface.
benny1967
2008-04-21, 21:16
And as the ultimate focus of the internet tablets just has to be the general public, instead of the comparably tiny Linux nerd/sys admin demographic (which I feel are the most vocal opponents of an simple, finger-based UI on here), I'd be absolutely happy to see an completely finger-optimized and largely consistent interface.
I think this is just a silly prejudice. Thousands of mainstream PDA-/Smartphone-/...-units are sold today that use a stylus. I dont see them used by GNU/Linux nerds. (At least not where I work.. the people there have trouble using any kind of computer.)
I firmly believe this finger thing is a trend that will fade away once people see its limitations. It may prevail in devices that are made for limited use (media players, phones, ...), but please don't forget that finger-based UIs have been around for quite a while now and never managed to get out of a very narrow niche. This is for a good reason.
I'd like to see a magic press-and-hold key or keys on reboot that shows what the device is really doing. That way, when i get into another reboot loop, i'll have a clue.
I'd like some more documentation, perhaps on a CD or something, that talks about what the apps really do. Media Player, for example, has a byzintine set of functions, half of which seem mislabeled. I was not able to create a playlist from a directory of mp3's (there are 350+ audio files in this book), despite new directions on this forum. Maybe that's Media Player's fault. But no attempt was made. On the subject of documentation, i'd really like to disable the script that strips /usr/share/doc/* while adding apps. The NIT is very good for reading.
I'd like Evince to be the standard PDF reader.
I'd like a larger boot flash drive - at least as an option. The n800 has the 'internal' slot, which gives you two addable SD slots. Perhaps the boot drive could be replacable. Then i could put in a 16+ GB SD.
The boot drive is a compressed linux filesystem. I might want a compressed filesystem for other SD drives. I certainly would like an encrypted filesystem for some drives. Perhaps FileManager could handle it.
I want real backup. If it goes into a reboot loop, and i have to reflash, i don't have to reinstall everything.
I want to be able to get an apps repository on CD. NFS mount of WiFi instructions (or script)., or something. That way i can restore the exact same version of some app - not just what happens to be out there.
Thousands of mainstream PDA-/Smartphone-/...-units are sold today that use a stylus.
How many prior-iPhone devices actually had fully finger-usable interfaces? Pretty much none, and certainly no mainstream, mobile device.
On the other hand, the iPhone was a tremendous success, and I don't believe this was just because of Apple's marketing hype. Think about it - the hardware of it is average at best, but the UI is a step ahead, not least because it ditched the stylus and is based on an interface that just doesn't need one.
I actually think it's a silly prejudice to think that stylus-less UI's can't be similar capable...
And note that I'm very far from an Apple or iPhone fan. In fact, I'm completely annoyed by the ongoing media hype that thing enjoys...
benny1967
2008-04-21, 21:56
...Apple's marketing hype. Think about it - the hardware of it is average at best, but the UI is a step ahead, not least because it ditched the stylus and is based on an interface that just doesn't need one.
I actually think it's a silly prejudice to think that stylus-less UI's can't be similar capable...
Well, I never used an iPhone, but I used an iPod Touch which should be very close to it in this respect. I found th UI unbearable. Couldn't type on the keyboard when the device was in portrait mode and could hardly type when it was in landscape mode. Very, very limited functionality because for each function, you need a whole video game to implement it. Takes ages to "scroll" through your music.
You know, even for those who can use it without becoming impatient after a few minutes, it's a good example of how limited a device must be in functionality in order to be used with finger gestures.
Couldn't type on the keyboard when the device was in portrait mode and could hardly type when it was in landscape mode.
All I can say is that the N800's finger-sized keyboard works very well for me with my two thumbs - if it would be made transparent instead of opaque, I think this would work just nice. On the other hand, I find the stylus keyboard of OS2007 cumbersome, as it demands a solid surface to be used. But obviously, YMMV.
Very, very limited functionality because for each function, you need a whole video game to implement it.
What? In which way? That sentence really doesn't make much sense without a couple of illustrating examples.
Takes ages to "scroll" through your music.
What has Apple's implementation of a long list for searching through music to do with the general finger/stylus discussion going on here? What hinders an UI designer to create eg finger-sized tabs for intelligently chosen letter groups to limit a long list?
Even though I can't prove it or back it up with studies, I dare to say that the vast majority of people who have ever gotten used to stylus-free UI's on small devices would never go back to a UI that requires a stylus for basic operations. Just a gut feeling, but one I'd bet quite a bit on.
penguinbait
2008-04-21, 22:25
1024x600
512 MB RAM (MUST HAVE)
faster CPU
Trying to do an hybrid stylus-/finger-based UI with an option is quite frankly the worst thing that could happen if you ask me.
Pick one, build everything according to the chosen philososphy - everything else will lead to an utterly inconsistent chaos.
Again: that's not a given, I don't care how much sense it makes in general or how many times it's repeated.
The contextual approach we had going for a while makes the most sense to me and many other users. I don't understand why it was scrapped but I won't speculate on it... I'll only say that it satisfied both camps and with no obvious intrusion or loss of functionality.
What you seem to fail to realize is that the right approach will look like a "pick one" to users depending on their personal usage. Touch the screen with your narrow stylus and the UI gives you stylus-based input modes. Touch it with your big greasy finger and you get big fat icons and gestures. Simple. Elegant. Effective. Win-win.
iontruo2
2008-04-21, 23:20
The first thing most people learn in schools when they are young is still writing...with a pencil or pen. Ergo, it is quite a natural format for involved input. What if your taking notes or writing poetry? My Treo650 just died because the qwerty mechanical keyboard failed. Chicklets and membrane keyboards, same potential. What about something like TEALSCRIPT from the Palm world? They have a 'write anywhere' capability and were not necessarily confined to a specific 'field' for input. The slide out qwerty keyboard at this stage, to me, is just copy-cat stuff. Its already been done numerous time and it is anything, but, efficient for high speed or spontaneous writing input. Sorry, qwerty was originally invented to specifically slow down input on old manual typewriters in order to avoid jams. How ironic is that? So more time and money and methods are toyed with around those themes that are not in the best interests of people effectively recording thoughts or notes or programming. As Karel has many times lamented about the Newton, it seems the whole industry has been stumbling blindly for well over a decade since. Palm was really the spin off of the orphans from the Newton team and it was certainly good in many areas but alas they have run out of gas at 2008.
I really don't think at this stage of computing that one has to pick an either/or scenario. OS2007 showed fairly well 'sensing and switching' between finger or stylus in regards to the interface. Why does everyone keep trying to make it one way only? Its like the PIM premise I have heard. I think it is all excuses. Finger is fine, and the ground has ALREADY been well paved a long time back for good stylus use. Each has great value, period. There is no competition, lets just get to effective application of them for the real end result. If your 'brain mapping' or practicing 'stream of consciousness' writing, I'm sorry tapping on a keyboard or using the screen with a finger is not really the choice for that flow to work well. To me this is core stuff for the consideration of the next evolution of a tablet to N900. How to input effectively and with fluidity in different requirements.
brontide
2008-04-22, 00:55
http://phasetwo.org/post/the-querty-myth.html
I don't buy the whole "we write with a pen therefore a stylus is natural" because there are so many differences. When Nokia comes out with a 8.5x11 tablet with a paper texture screen and an active or magnetic stylus then I'll reconsider, but passive screens are just not accurate enough to handle that kind of functionality cleanly.
Palm chose stylus input and it shows in their design. It was possible to cleanly use the device with only the 4 hardware buttons + dpad or the stylus. Their UI guidelines were designed from the ground up for stylus and they invested real time and money into handwriting.
And I'll agree with everyone that the Apple keyboard sucks, but since this was never intended to be an input heavy device it makes sense. But looking at it more holistically there are a number of really great ideas even in that sucky keyboard. The one biggest thing is the next/previous buttons so that you don't have to do a context/modal change three or four times just to enter a username and password on a webpage. Taking the Nokia OSK and adding an application controlled area would be a big start too so you don't have to change modality in IM just to see what the other person said.
On the other hand there are items like Application Manager that make a mockery of UI/UX issues leading to a needlessly complicated application. For instance you go to the menu->tools->Refresh application list... and then it prompts you to confirm, why? Check for updates... doesn't actually check it only lists and browse installable applications is a joke because they don't enforce any QA on extras.
That's just one application and I can brainstorm 3 or 4 alternate interfaces that would have been cleaner and clearer. I'm not talking about major rewrites here, just slightly different wrappers on the same functionality. It's obvious they don't see UI design as a high priority on the platform.
I don't buy the whole "we write with a pen therefore a stylus is natural" because there are so many differences.
I don't think iontruo2 was concerned with any of the differences (and neither am I)-- I suspect his focus was on the important similarities. At the end of the day your complaints become moot; given that we do indeed learn to write with some sort of stylius, and continue that until death, it only stands to reason that any hurdles in the way of achieving that on tablets are simply opportunities looking for solution.
Palm chose stylus input and it shows in their design. It was possible to cleanly use the device with only the 4 hardware buttons + dpad or the stylus. Their UI guidelines were designed from the ground up for stylus and they invested real time and money into handwriting.
Which just goes to show it CAN be done. All it requires is commitment. And even then, your example still does not preclude a UI approach that uses context to switch cleanly and transparently from stylus input mode to anything else we can imagine.
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-22, 01:45
Check for updates... doesn't actually check it only lists and browse installable applications is a joke because they don't enforce any QA on extras.
Well, the issue isn't QA, but that the guidelines specifically allow arbitrary package sections. See here (http://hildon-app-mgr.garage.maemo.org/packaging-stable.html).
The AM only shows packages in the user segment. Thus, your Section field in the control file should be of the form
Section: user/SECTION
where SECTION is arbitrary. SECTION should be a nice capitalised, English word like "Ringtones". There is no support for localising that word yet, unfortunately.
However, there is also a predefined set of sections. If your package fits into one of these sections, you should put it there. This will avoid fragmenting the section names, and the names of these sections will be correctly localised.
X-Fade has been working on a better solution for this, though (discussion here (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2008-April/017408.html)). I put forward a couple of UI mockups in bug #3103 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3103) (disscussion here (http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2008-April/017416.html)), as well. Point is, there's definitely some movement going on on this point.
The contextual approach we had going for a while makes the most sense to me and many other users. I don't understand why it was scrapped but I won't speculate on it... I'll only say that it satisfied both camps and with no obvious intrusion or loss of functionality.
You're obviously in at least as good a situation to guess as I, but I think the reason had to do with the way the touchscreen has reduced sensitivity at the edges.
The correct solution seems to be an improved calibration tool, but it's uunderstandable that the previous situation was deemed unacceptable (though I don't think this is better).
What you seem to fail to realize is that the right approach will look like a "pick one" to users depending on their personal usage. Touch the screen with your narrow stylus and the UI gives you stylus-based input modes. Touch it with your big greasy finger and you get big fat icons and gestures. Simple. Elegant. Effective. Win-win.Agreed, but that's not what we had, so we lost it. :(
I wish we had 5-point calibration, with separate position & pressure.
What you seem to fail to realize is that the right approach will look like a "pick one" to users depending on their personal usage. Touch the screen with your narrow stylus and the UI gives you stylus-based input modes. Touch it with your big greasy finger and you get big fat icons and gestures. Simple. Elegant. Effective. Win-win.
Nice in theory. I still refuse to believe that it works well or anywhere that easy in reality. While this *might* work out for a couple of programs that are lovingly designed for both ways, with each way of operating well-thought through, the majority of freeware/opensource programs will be either/or, forcing the user in different usage patterns for every app.
The finger/stylus recognition left a lot to be desired in OS2007, and as soon as that doesn't work 110% reliable, all the rest becomes awkward and frankly pointless, as you'll just end up using the stylus alone so that you can avoid having to tap every input field a couple of times until the OS recognizes your "big greasy finger" and displays the appropriate keyboard.
Another example are scrollbars - with a dual approach, you have to waste a lot of space for finger-friendly ones, because the device can hardly guess in advance whether or not you're going to use the stylus...
sachin007
2008-04-22, 07:46
The finger stylus input worked pretty well in os2007. So did the osk and thumb keyboard. I Just cant say in words how irrtating it is to type on the OSK and the full screen board in os2008. even though i love my n800 lot more than many things in life, i get really frustrated when typing and i just want to trash the n800 onthe ground!! I Just cant understand how nokia can regress on things already there.
Coming to the scrollbar....... they should widen the scrollbars and make them transparent which comes up when u place the thumb on the right corner just like the arrow buttons which appear and disappear in the pdf reader.
I'd love to see add-on modules that can clip onto the back and maybe even build on each other. For example, WiMax modem, extended battery, SSD/HDD storage/battery, GPS (remove some of the things like the GPS from inside the unit, and make the unit smaller).
This is what I'd like to see added:
1. Far better graphics capabilities (no tearing, include 3D effects and animations)
2. Boost in CPU speed (whatever is needed to enable decent [Skype/Gizmo/whatever else] video chats to a PC).
3. Better resolution camera and decent video recording support.
4. DVB TV receiver (or have a separate version of the IT which includes this)
Most important of all is the software though - Skype video, a compelling media browser/player interface, and better contact/PIM applications are needed for sure.
Oh, and Java support would be nice.
benny1967
2008-04-22, 09:44
I'd love to see add-on modules that can clip onto the back and maybe even build on each other. For example, WiMax modem, extended battery, SSD/HDD storage/battery, GPS (remove some of the things like the GPS from inside the unit, and make the unit smaller).
something like http://www.buglabs.net/products maybe? ;)
Nice in theory. I still refuse to believe that it works well or anywhere that easy in reality. While this *might* work out for a couple of programs that are lovingly designed for both ways, with each way of operating well-thought through, the majority of freeware/opensource programs will be either/or, forcing the user in different usage patterns for every app.
The finger/stylus recognition left a lot to be desired in OS2007, and as soon as that doesn't work 110% reliable, all the rest becomes awkward and frankly pointless, as you'll just end up using the stylus alone so that you can avoid having to tap every input field a couple of times until the OS recognizes your "big greasy finger" and displays the appropriate keyboard.
Another example are scrollbars - with a dual approach, you have to waste a lot of space for finger-friendly ones, because the device can hardly guess in advance whether or not you're going to use the stylus...
I'm just not that pessimistic. Throw me a challenge, I'll work out 3 or 4 good solid solutions. I've made a career out of solving "the impossible". I would hope that's the sort of folks we have in the tablet hardware and software development.
sjgadsby
2008-04-22, 13:02
The finger/stylus recognition left a lot to be desired in OS2007, and as soon as that doesn't work 110% reliable, all the rest becomes awkward and frankly pointless, as you'll just end up using the stylus alone so that you can avoid having to tap every input field a couple of times until the OS recognizes your "big greasy finger" and displays the appropriate keyboard.
Another example are scrollbars - with a dual approach, you have to waste a lot of space for finger-friendly ones, because the device can hardly guess in advance whether or not you're going to use the stylus...
While a quick search failed to turn up the post, I recall that some time ago someone posted a suggestion that future tablets should contain a switch in the stylus silo. With the stylus is stored, the tablet works in its default, "fat finger" mode, but then shifts appropriately when the stylus comes out to play. This automatic transition would be in line with other magical, magnetical tricks the tablets perform.
Of course, there are downsides. This magic would only work on those theoretical future tablets that contain the switch. Applications would need to be coded specifically for the platform, with UIs for both modes. Unlikely, while we're still starved enough for software that we're often happy to get rough, un-Hildonized ports. And losing a stylus would cause even more frustration than it does now.
Not only numpty physics, but things like sketching or editing graphics would be difficult to use without a stylus. I haven't seen an international art movement devoted to fingerpainting yet. Also, just for editing, let's say you want to move a few words. The only decent replacement for a stylus would be a mouse. Sure, there are keyboard commands for that, but not everyone wants to learn vi.
Hey, how about a cursor directed by brainwaves! That's reasonable for the N900, isn't it?
Well, with a sufficiently large font, and with the assumption that you only want to move whole words, fingers can work surprisingly well. If you want to move only some characters in a word, Shift + d-pad can help on a keyboard device, or manually backspacing the offending characters, and retyping them elsewhere.
However, I am rarely amused by programs that interpret a drag from somewhere in the middle of a word to include the whole word; I think in a character-based way when editing, and would rather make 3 attempts every time to select a string than to be completely unable to get some strings I want, even though it actually gets what I want 80% of the time.
Edit: Just a thought re: brainwaves: Why not an accelerometer-controlled cursor? Obviously not on all the time, but give us 4 buttons on the top edge; one enables accelerometer control of cursor, and the other three are mouse buttons 1, 2, and 3.
And since everyone likes kinetics in their scrolls, kinetics in their cursor (think rolling a marble around on the screen) should be cool, too, right? :p
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-22, 14:14
While a quick search failed to turn up the post, I recall that some time ago someone posted a suggestion that future tablets should contain a switch in the stylus silo. With the stylus is stored, the tablet works in its default, "fat finger" mode, but then shifts appropriately when the stylus comes out to play. This automatic transition would be in line with other magical, magnetical tricks the tablets perform.
/me shudders.
That sounds like about the worst solution to this problem that I can imagine. I frequently use the device with and without the stylus stowed, and it usually has little correlation to the input device (stylus, fingers or other) that I'm using at the moment. Besides, what about those people that lose their styluses?
Karel Jansens
2008-04-22, 14:24
I'm just not that pessimistic. Throw me a challenge, I'll work out 3 or 4 good solid solutions. I've made a career out of solving "the impossible". I would hope that's the sort of folks we have in the tablet hardware and software development.
You have 'til june; july at the most.
/me shudders.
That sounds like about the worst solution to this problem that I can imagine. I frequently use the device with and without the stylus stowed, and it usually has little correlation to the input device (stylus, fingers or other) that I'm using at the moment. Besides, what about those people that lose their styluses?
The real solution would be a combo screen, with capacitive multi-touch for finger usage, and one of Special capacitive-sensable stylus, which could be detected reliably on the basis of contact area
Active (inductive, right?) stylus, like graphics tablets have
It'd add significantly to the cost, unfortunately, but it also might (I'm way too optimistic, I know...) allow a dual-ended stylus, with the point sending button 1, and the "eraser" end sending button 3. Gives us a nicer right-click solution, and enhances stuff like Xournal dramatically. Probably the odd wierd gaming interface use, too, but I'm always surprised with those.
For those who lose their stylii, well, Nokia would have to start making them available... But the bigger, clunkier, and more complex the stylus, the less likely they lose it.
Karel Jansens
2008-04-22, 14:34
While a quick search failed to turn up the post, I recall that some time ago someone posted a suggestion that future tablets should contain a switch in the stylus silo. With the stylus is stored, the tablet works in its default, "fat finger" mode, but then shifts appropriately when the stylus comes out to play. This automatic transition would be in line with other magical, magnetical tricks the tablets perform.
Of course, there are downsides. This magic would only work on those theoretical future tablets that contain the switch. Applications would need to be coded specifically for the platform, with UIs for both modes. Unlikely, while we're still starved enough for software that we're often happy to get rough, un-Hildonized ports. And losing a stylus would cause even more frustration than it does now.
I hardly ever use the built-in stylus, mainly because it blisters my fingers. Are you suggesting I leave that one out then?
Furthermore, dual-mode UIs is how OpenMoko is going, and I'm not certain that's a good thing. I like the use of the pressure-sensitive screen to determine what's touching the screen and see refining that method as the best way to go.
There's no need to mandate developers code for both UIs: Some applications are made for finger, others for stylus and others for both. If the user doesn't like it, he doesn't install it. I e.g. don't like Canola, the ultimate finger app for the Itablet, so I don't install it.
That's what a true computer should be about: user choice. If you want to have choice taken away from you, get an Apple gizmo.
(And yes, even as a self-proclaimed Newton advocate, I do see the irony)
sjgadsby
2008-04-22, 14:50
Besides, what about those people that lose their styluses?
I did mention that as a negative.
However, I've never lost a stylus for any device that came with one, going all the way back to my KoalaPad. I can only assume that those who lose their styluses never had Magic Slates as children, and therefore, missed out on learning the importance of always safely storing a stylus in the provided holder.
More seriously, I don't expect that my mentioning of this idea here will lead to Nokia actually implementing it in any future device. I mentioned it only as it provided a method of providing a dual-mode UI without relying upon the touchscreen for stylus/finger differentiation. I don't think your usage pattern is in any danger.
sjgadsby
2008-04-22, 14:54
Are you suggesting I leave that one out then?
No, not really. A problem was brought up, and I mentioned an alternative solution I'd seen posted earlier, in another thread.
I'm going to back out of this thread now. It's not my kind of silly.
debudebu
2008-04-22, 15:39
i would really like a device that is just one big screen that can be folded in half. the screen would be flexible enough to allow the use of buttons underneath it. in this way, the device itself could be a nearly full-size keyboard. i seem to remember i post about someone testing screen flexibility and including buttons under the screen of a 770. when a keyboard isn't needed, the sweet 8 inch wide screen could be used to watch widescreen movies etc, and when stored, it could be closed like a clamshell.
debudebu
2008-04-22, 16:03
ahh, it could also be folded backwards for vertical, one-handed use.
You have 'til june; july at the most.
My impossible challenges lie in another direction currently. ;)
But rest assured I've already knocked a few out of the park.
GeraldKo
2008-04-22, 16:58
Coming to the scrollbar....... they should widen the scrollbars and make them transparent which comes up when u place the thumb on the right corner just like the arrow buttons which appear and disappear in the pdf reader.
THAT'S A REALLY GOOD IDEA!
THAT'S A REALLY GOOD IDEA!
HEY! I recommended that in the maemo scroll bar bug report. :mad: :D
GeraldKo
2008-04-22, 17:04
HEY! I recommended that in the maemo scroll bar bug report. :mad: :D
Then, Texrat, you had a REALLY GOOD IDEA, too!
And just to repeat Sachin007 (who says things just like Texrat):
Coming to the scrollbar....... they should widen the scrollbars and make them transparent which comes up when u place the thumb on the right corner just like the arrow buttons which appear and disappear in the pdf reader.
penguinbait
2008-04-22, 17:08
1024 x 600
512MB RAM
Double CPU Speed
Persistance is the key :)
Sometimes a guy just needs a pat on the back. I'll share the pats with sachin, no prob. :D
And actually our suggestions were slightly different, but close enough to prove once again that Great Minds Think Alike.
Furthermore, dual-mode UIs is how OpenMoko is going, and I'm not certain that's a good thing. I like the use of the pressure-sensitive screen to determine what's touching the screen and see refining that method as the best way to go.
... I tend to agree:
http://tinyurl.com/4xto25 :)
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-22, 17:23
1024 x 600
I like this one, but I'd like not to lose ALL of the face buttons in the process.
512MB RAM
I'd like this one, too, but I'm not super optimistic about it. 256MB seems much more likely.
Double CPU Speed
I point you to a fun little quote from here (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4755891268.html).
The OMAP3440 is based on an 800MHz ARM Cortex-A8 core. Launched in October of 2005, the Cortex-A8 core was positioned as burning similar power to ARM11, while delivering two-to-three times better performance.
The OMAP3430 (the more likely candidate due to power and formfactor issues) is in the 600MHz range, but it's still a huge leap in performance over the OMAP2420. :D
MstPrgmr
2008-04-22, 17:34
I just don't want to see Nokia move backwards. This is a pretty long thread and everyone has a different idea of what should be done.
In order to not move backward:
1. DO NOT increase the size of the tablet (from N810). I like the N810's small and thin profile.
2. DO NOT remove the keyboard. For God's sake that was an improvement from the N800 and some people want it gone.
In order to move foward:
3. Increase CPU and RAM. This will almost certainly be done
4. Make major improvements to software... this has been discussed several times. Software is one of the biggest problems.
5. ADD A PIM SUITE. There is just no reason not to. The whole "but this is not a PDA" excuse just doesn't fly. The customer is always right and many customers say they want a PIM.
These are just some general suggestions. One could write a book about possible software improvements in #4, but overall the form factor of the N810 is pretty neat. Speed increase, and an improved keyboard are the main goals for improvement here. In addition the ambient light sensor and camera can be moved to the top center, where one's thumb will not obstruct them. A case with belt clip would also be nice.
EDIT:
Oh, and one more thing. The N900 should have a screen flush with its surface. I hate the way the screens on the tablets are recessed. Also, the dpad should be accessible when the keyboard is closed.
/me slams mstprgmr over the head with tiny, keyboardful, flush-screen tablet.
SLAM! SLAM! SLAM!
Now I feel better. I'm not even gonna touch the bezel issue again...
The only way to keep the size of the N810 is to shrink the screen. That's bad, so let's not. (No, leaving the d-pad on the slider is not an option; the d-pad is essential and must be brought back out. How do you control music playback with the tablet in your pocket with no d-pad?!?) Also, the N810's combination of thinness and slider required de-pivoting the camera; it should be centered above the screen, but still with 270 degree pivot. Pivot down (pointing straight into tablet) to keep the lens clean and for privacy concerns.
And as for the keyboard, perhaps you're confusing the N900 with the N910? Really, if I can have a tablet cheaper with no keyboard, I will. Because I use it as a laptop replacement, I usually have my BT keyboard anyway, and the on-screen boards are not as bad as some people think. I think there should keep being two models; I'd gladly take the N900, you can take the N910, and we can both be happy.
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-22, 17:52
In order to not move backward:
1. DO NOT increase the size of the tablet (from N810). I like the N810's small and thin profile.
2. DO NOT remove the keyboard. For God's sake that was an improvement from the N800 and some people want it gone.
The problem is, what you see as moving backward, I see as good ideas. No two people are going to share the same idea for the ideal device (despite Texrat always trying to integrate us into his creepy hive-mind :p). One man's must-have is another man's oh-dear-christ-NO! This is exactly the reason that Nokia needs to diversify the tablet lineup with more varied offerings (I've covered the topic a number of times already in this thread).
A little increase in size (compared to the N810) for halfway-decent storage, perhaps better battery life and more features is a good tradeoff for me. My pockets aren't tiny and I don't have any trouble carrying the N800.
I don't much care for the N810 keyboard (though my experience with it is rather limited) and the whole slider deal with the terrible button placement puts me off, especially with the rest of hardware compromises they had to make to fit that in there. I type just fine on the fullscreen keyboard, and actually prefer it a lot of the time.
5. ADD A PIM SUITE. There is just no reason not to. The whole "but this is not a PDA" excuse just doesn't fly. The customer is always right and many customers say they want a PIM.
I say again, software costs time and money! Personally, I'd rather see that time and money put into more useful things. ;)
Oh, and one more thing. The N900 should have a screen flush with its surface. I hate the way the screens on the tablets are recessed.
I wouldn't be against a small decrease in depth (could give us more room for internal compenents), but flush screens are definitely not my thing. Way too scratchable and breakable (especially considering that our screens are largely made of softer stuff than those Apple offerings).
HEY! I recommended that in the maemo scroll bar bug report. :mad: :D
That's really a great idea. Could you give us the bug report number or link? I need to vote on this one.
MstPrgmr
2008-04-22, 18:05
/me slams mstprgmr over the head with tiny, keyboardful, flush-screen tablet.
SLAM! SLAM! SLAM!
Now I feel better. I'm not even gonna touch the bezel issue again...
The only way to keep the size of the N810 is to shrink the screen. That's bad, so let's not. (No, leaving the d-pad on the slider is not an option; the d-pad is essential and must be brought back out. How do you control music playback with the tablet in your pocket with no d-pad?!?) Also, the N810's combination of thinness and slider required de-pivoting the camera; it should be centered above the screen, but still with 270 degree pivot. Pivot down (pointing straight into tablet) to keep the lens clean and for privacy concerns.
And as for the keyboard, perhaps you're confusing the N900 with the N910? Really, if I can have a tablet cheaper with no keyboard, I will. Because I use it as a laptop replacement, I usually have my BT keyboard anyway, and the on-screen boards are not as bad as some people think. I think there should keep being two models; I'd gladly take the N900, you can take the N910, and we can both be happy.
If you examine your N810 you will see the screen in the center and two real estate areas surrounding that. The camera, ambient light sensor, and two buttons occupy one of those areas and the other area is not being used. You could use the area not being used to make modifications, or you could set the screen to be off center and have even more space. Increasing the size is not necessary.
Also, the keyboard is a must. Yes you can use a bluetooth keyboard but not everyone has that or wants it. I want to type on the go, and have the slide out keyboard there for use anytime. The N810 is a nice small pocketable device. Increasing the size and adding a bluetooth keyboard to boot destroys that profile.
That's really a great idea. Could you give us the bug report number or link?
Sure! It's bug 1252 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1252). Again, sachin's great suggestion is a little different than mine so he may want to add his comments there... and VOTE! ;)
MstPrgmr
2008-04-22, 18:12
The problem is, what you see as moving backward, I see as good ideas. No two people are going to share the same idea for the ideal device (despite Texrat always trying to integrate us into his creepy hive-mind :p). One man's must-have is another man's oh-dear-christ-NO! This is exactly the reason that Nokia needs to diversify the tablet lineup with more varied offerings (I've covered the topic a number of times already in this thread).
A little increase in size (compared to the N810) for halfway-decent storage, perhaps better battery life and more features is a good tradeoff for me. My pockets aren't tiny and I don't have any trouble carrying the N800.
I don't much care for the N810 keyboard (though my experience with it is rather limited) and the whole slider deal with the terrible button placement puts me off, especially with the rest of hardware compromises they had to make to fit that in there. I type just fine on the fullscreen keyboard, and actually prefer it a lot of the time.
I say again, software costs time and money! Personally, I'd rather see that time and money put into more useful things. ;)
I wouldn't be against a small decrease in depth (could give us more room for internal compenents), but flush screens are definitely not my thing. Way too scratchable and breakable (especially considering that our screens are largely made of softer stuff than those Apple offerings).
It seems like there are two main types of people when it comes to size. Some want to see the tablet bigger, the other smaller. The bigger group wants the keyboard removed because they like the onscreen (horrible!) or carry a bluetooth keyboard. The smaller group likes a thumb keyboard because they don't carry around a bunch of crap and want a truly pocketable device.
You seem to be on bigger tablet side of the fence and I on the smaller tablet side. I like just being able to carry my wallet, keys, phone, and N810. That's it. And I can fit them all in my (non baggy or huge) jeans.
sachin007
2008-04-22, 18:14
Sure! It's bug 1252 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1252). Again, sachin's great suggestion is a little different than mine so he may want to add his comments there... and VOTE! ;)
I already did vote for that bug and also updated my comments regarding the transparent feature......
Anything else BOSS? :D:D
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-22, 18:16
You seem to be on bigger tablet side of the fence and I on the smaller tablet side. I like just being able to carry my wallet, keys, phone, and N810. That's it. And I can fit them all in my (non baggy or huge) jeans.
s/N810/N800/ and maybe throw a Leatherman in there from time to time. My jeans are certainly not baggy or huge and everything definitely fits. ;)
sachin007
2008-04-22, 18:18
It seems like there are two main types of people when it comes to size. Some want to see the tablet bigger, the other smaller. The bigger group wants the keyboard removed because they like the onscreen (horrible!) or carry a bluetooth keyboard. The smaller group likes a thumb keyboard because they don't carry around a bunch of crap and want a truly pocketable device.
You seem to be on bigger tablet side of the fence and I on the smaller tablet side. I like just being able to carry my wallet, keys, phone, and N810. That's it. And I can fit them all in my (non baggy or huge) jeans.
I will take the larger size if they give me a 5" screen. That size will nail the portable tablet market for nokia. And no way can they go more than the size of the n800. May be then can use the extra space on the right border of the n800 where there is the right speaker and extend the screen to the edge with 2-3 buttons like on the right most corner .... just like the 7710. That way it can be used for many more games.
It seems like there are two main types of people when it comes to size. Some want to see the tablet bigger, the other smaller.
THREE groups: I'm comfortable with the current N810 size.
And I agree with Benson: continue with at least 2 distinct offerings: 1 with keyboard, 1 without. NOTE: that is NOT even remotely official!!!!!!! :p
sjgadsby
2008-04-22, 18:22
The smaller group likes a thumb keyboard because they don't carry around a bunch of crap and want a truly pocketable device.
Could I have smaller and no slide out keyboard, please?
Could I have smaller and no slide out keyboard, please?
No.
Next?
sjgadsby
2008-04-22, 18:30
No.
Next?
Ah! Yes. Well, I'll just go sit in the corner with the crazy-eyed guy waving the "512 MB of RAM" sign then, shall I? Sorry to trouble you.
GeraldKo
2008-04-22, 18:32
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjgadsby
[QUOTE]Could I have smaller and no slide out keyboard, please?No.
Next?
OK, Texrat, sjgadsby wants basically an updated N800, a little smaller and with no slide-out keyboard; and he can't have one. I want the same thing. Can I have one?
Don't mind me... I just had this rubber NO stamp in hand, lots of red ink, and nothing to use it on.
sachin007
2008-04-22, 18:37
Someone here in this forum who has the time should read through all the posts and make multiple choice poll on what features you would like? And the number of choices each user can choose should be limited so that people pick the 3 most important feature they think should be in the n900. That will give nokia a good idea of what to implement and what not.....
sachin007
2008-04-22, 18:41
Are you volunteering? :D
I'd like to ..... but i need to study!! :mad:
Lets see. If no one does it..... may be ill just get mad and do it one day.
MstPrgmr
2008-04-22, 18:50
I though the maximum number of poll options was 10, so a poll encompassing all of the ideas of this thread would be impossible.
I'd like to ..... but i need to study!! :mad:
Lets see. If no one does it..... may be ill just get mad and do it one day.
That's the ticket: do it in anger! :D
I though the maximum number of poll options was 10, so a poll encompassing all of the ideas of this thread would be impossible.
Best of 10?
"future tablets should contain a switch in the stylus silo. With the stylus is stored, the tablet works in its default, "fat finger" mode, but then shifts appropriately when the stylus comes out to play."
Since the author of this comment also specializes in impossible challenges, how about teaching Nokia how to sell replacement styluses?
I was carrying my N800 in my jeans pocket until someone told me I looked weird with such bulging pockets.
So, since I can't carry it in my pocket for fashion reasons, I'm now open to a bigger tablet, which would be nicer for watching tv and movies anyway.
I think that trying to project an image of "the tablet even idiots can like" is not the right approach for the N900. That's a Mac thing. This is a tablet for smart people willing to learn more, and who want to carry a real computer with them. They want styluses, for one thing to write notes quickly in classes -- this is the fastest way to take notes, unless you can do true touch typing on the N900, which I doubt.
Once choice that could be offered -- how about a choice in sizes? Pocketable or not? Plus a shoulder holster for transportablity, with the device disguised as a gun.
geneven, you appear to be confusing sjgadsby and I in your rush toward the usual sarcasm. :D
And he was just making a suggestion.
samhogue
2008-04-22, 19:42
I really only want two things that my N800 doesn't have now:
1:)More horsepower. I don't know if it's software or hardware, or both, but we're not quite to the fie on a mobile device. The it does it better than any other device, but still can't handle some of the 'Web 2.0' stuff that I need it to do(Google Spreadsheets anyone?)
2:)Always on connectivity. WiMax sounds great, but it ain't here yet, and probably won't be cheap at first, either. I personally want a quad-band GSM sim slot with at least edge. I don't care if it can handle phone calls or not. I could move my current card with $20.00 a month data plan to the tablet, then add a line to my AT&T Family Plan for $9.99 for my calling needs. Cost to me:$9.99 per month more than I'm paying now. Not bad for full-time tablet connectivity. I know, the argument against this is that Bluetooth tethering will do the same without adding an additional line, but I'm not satisfied with Bluetooth. I've been using tethering for a few years now with several different phones and mobile computers/PDA's, some with built-in BT and some with dongles, and I've never been satisfied with the results. I've had too many dropped connections and other problems, so I'd rather take the HTC Shift route.
Beyond these two things, I'd personally stick to SD cards for the increased storage, but would at least prefer microSD to mini. Mini just hasn't had widespread adoption as far as I can see.
Finally, always give a pure tablet option. I'm not a big fan of little keyboards, but I would like to see 'write anywhere' handwriting recognition. I love handwriting recognition, but the it's current implementation is poor.
It will be interesting to come back to this thread *peep* months later when "N900" has just been released... :D
brontide
2008-04-22, 20:18
Hardware wise I doubt there will be any big surprises. OMAP3, 3d acceleration, h264 in hardware, 256MB RAM, at least 512MB internal flash, same size screen, and similar or smaller footprint. I think those are all very good bets.
Software is another whole story since even the existing hardware could get a real boost from newer software.
It will be interesting to come back to this thread *peep* months later when "N900" has just been released... :D
Not a peep out of you, mister! :D
GeneralAntilles
2008-04-22, 20:36
Not a peep out of you, mister! :D
Kidness and bribery haven't been very effective in the past. Perhaps we, as a community, should try out violence for a while. :D
sjgadsby
2008-04-22, 20:44
Not a peep out of you, mister!
Not even for a fan?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2211/2434205465_a9bd5e5f9b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sjgadsby/2434205465/)
Heh! :p You can also torture Texrat since he knows also all the juicy details you are after... :D
MstPrgmr
2008-04-22, 21:00
Ok, I am thniking of making a poll. What do you think of the following proposed HARDWARE changes only. I think the 10 most talked about things are (in no specific order) represented below. I am assuming everybody wants more powerful cpu, more ram, and charge through usb.
1. Automatic stylus removal detection__ Yes No
2. Physical_keyboard_________________ Yes No
3. Bigger screen____________________ Yes No
4. GSM radio_______________________ Yes No
5. Storage_________________________ 1 SD, 2 SD, 1 microSD, 2 microSD, hard drive
6. Capacitive touch screen____________ Yes No
7. Radio(s)__________________________ GPS, Wimax, FM, 802.11n
8. N770 like hard cover_______________ Yes No
9. real camera (for taking pictures/video) Yes No
10. Size___________________________ smaller, same, bigger
So what do you think of the list?
Get ready to laugh but I would love a super tiny bluetooth mouse that pops out of the unit. Maybe the size of a couple quarters.
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