What woud you realistically like to see in the N900? [Archive] - Page 4 - maemo.org

wartstew

2008-07-04, 19:55

I recently bought an N810 because I felt it was an amazing piece of hardware supported by a mostly open source community. So far have I not been disappointed, but like everything, it can always be better:

A) Change the memory/filesystem layout to be as follows:

Internal "MTD" memory to be used for bootloaders, recovery utils, & misc diagnostics only. The boot loader should have adequate options for any future OS's including those not sanctioned by Nokia. The recovery utilities should at the very least allow for complete rebuilding/installation of Nokia OS on the MicroSD listed below. Other diagnostics should help troubleshoot possible hardware problems that might be confused with software or OS problems.

OS then lives on a removable MicroSD. This can be located in a less accessible area such as in the battery compartment. Ship the unit with a microSD and OS pre-installed on it. The size should be such that there is enough room for the OS, map data and a reasonable amount of user files. Users can upgrade to larger microSD disks if they wish. This arrangement makes backups, alternative OS/versions, disaster recovery, easy by just plugging in different cards and booting or restoring. The MicroSD should probably have a native Linux file system on it.

If possible, go back to a single full sized SD slot for the "removable" memory.

I feel this arrangement makes the most sense in that it provides "bricking" prevention by discouraging modifications to the internal MTD memory, removes memory wear issues by putting everything else on removable (as in replaceable) memory cards while providing for a large enough, and expandable root file system, then providing a more industry standard and larger capacity potential removable storage.

B) As others mentioned, USB charging would be nice, but these are the issues with it as I understand:

1) USB Current is limited to 500ma. This means a slow charge rate. A very slow charge rate if unit is then in a high battery-drain mode at the same time.

2) Will there be a problem with polarity reversal going from USB host to client modes? Hopefully there already safeguards built in the existing units to prevent damage to the IT or USB devices.

3) If USB charging is worked out, it might be decided to eliminate the tiny Nokia power connector and charge the unit from USB only. In this case the USB micro-to-"A" adapter cable should be modified to accept the charger (perhaps a from a standard USB "A") while providing a separate "A" connector for USB accessories. Perhaps the charger can then provide a true 5V USB power to the accessory when operated in this mode? If the dual "A" cable arrangement is chosen, then the unit could accept two USB devices when running from batteries only, assuming there is enough power to run both of them.

C) More RAM memory. 256 Megs would be very nice and speed unit up a little too since Linux has a good memory caching scheme.

D) A better camera, but with more efficient processor support so that when used as a web cam, it doesn't use up all the processor power. Perhaps it can get help from the DSP module in the OMAP? A higher resolution camera could then do "face" or "motion" tracking to produce a lower resolution window "cut-out" of the full image to stream. This would be real slick!

E) Increase the battery life. One of the reasons I chose to purchase an N810 over an ASUS EEE-PC was battery life (It sucks on the Asus). The goal should be to make the unit last a day with normal use. Can this be done with better power management and/or by the use of multicore processors? Of course I realize that LCD backlighting is one of the most major power drains, and perhaps not much can be done here unless there are some breakthroughs in LCD & LED technologies. For those wishing for inductive charging, I doubt we have room for enough iron core to be able to transfer enough power, but I could be wrong.

F) Put more buttons on the front of the unit. Make some of them a little easier to push for better game playing.

G) Either make the handwriting work without having to shift for different charactor/symbol sets, or eliminate it completely. It is not very useable as it is. How about some voice recognition software instead?

F) Choose hardware that we can have fully open-source driver access to. Proprietary binary drivers are very troublesome for a Linux system in the long term and should not be used.

G) If you choose to install a "real" mobile phone radio, make sure it is an open source supported one. Do not make "deals" with service providers like Apple did. Notice I purchased an N810, not an Apple iPhone or ipod-Touch!

H) Although the size of the device (N810) is just about perfect for me, if a slightly larger display can be squeezed into the N900 without making the whole thing much bigger, let's do it. If you do make the whole unit a little bigger, put in a bigger battery. Others have said that the size of the original N770 was good. Maybe so if it is filled up with a larger screen and enough battery to power it.

I) Move the +/-/FS buttons so that they are easier to use when keyboard is extended

J) Do a multitouch touch screen unless Apple has it too patent encumbered.

K) Change the mobile mount to be a window mount (like the Nokia HH-12), the built-in GPS receiver needs to be up at the window to be useful.

----

Things to not mess up:

A) Sound is great for such a small device. Leave it alone. I also like the standard-compatible 3.5mm headphone jack with the optional 4th terminal microphone capability. The inclusion of speakers set this product apart from the many "Video-MP3" players that are out there. Keep all this.

B) Keep the role switching host-mode / client-mode USB port

C) Keep the GPS receiver, make improvements to it if you can

D) Keep a physical keyboard, but entertain better ways to do it.

E) Keep Bluetooth

F) Keep the kickstand or at least something that performs this same function.

G) keep the stylus & cradle for it.

H) Keep the unit rugged.

-------

Things I don't care about:

A) I personally don't care about the FM radio (either receiver or the mythical transmitter)

B) The soft case (as compared to the older hard one) is just fine with me too. The hard case just makes the unit bigger in practice. The soft case protects the unit from scratching, the rest of the unit is rugged enough to not need a hard case.

C) I don't think I care about all that auto-rotating screen and accelerometer stuff that Apple uses. It seems like it was be a processor-intensive annoyance in the long run.

wartstew

2008-07-04, 20:39

Some warnings about a docking station:

Historically when a docking station is made an optional accessory, it is then priced too expensive and few people buy it. The exception is when the device then becomes so popular (i.e.: iPod) that there are lots of 3rd parties making low cost docks for it.

If too much functionality is transfered to the dock, then one starts to feel they must carry the dock around with them too. It kind of ruins the portability of the device.

I like the idea of lots of single-purpose USB accessories instead. You take what ever single accessory you need for the task with you at any time. This would typically mean "no accessories".

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-06, 12:34

@wartstew

Wow! What a post! I wish I had the time to reply to the whole thing, but its just so complete (read: really, really, long! :))

Actually, I think your suggestions are amazing. You have a keen understanding of practicality and it shows through your ideas. I honestly don't think that there's a one that I would change.

I especially like the RAM suggestion. It's been suggested before, but I feel that this is the single most useful factor for the expansion of the tablet functionality. With enough ram (256 being a bare minimum these days, considering the large number of 'desktop' apps that are finding there way onto the tablets) it should significantly reduce swapping and likely result in a speed increase *and* increase of battery life. Of course this assumes that holding something in memory is less expensive power-wise than getting/setting something to the drive.

I agree about the docking station. It should be a thing of convenience and NOT evolve into a requirement. I think I would be happy with a few external connectors (powered USB hub, etc) but nothing that the system couldn't do on its own with the right cables. Hey, if the docking station accepted Lithium AAs, it could charge the N810 or greatly extend its usability when away from an outlet. A useful feature when on a long plane trip, for example.

}:^)~
YARR!

Magistrate Corrupt

Charles

2008-07-06, 14:30

I would like to see speech recognition, like Dragon Naturally Speaking. Then I could "say" my emails and use my voice for MSN Messenger (ok, Gizmo).

I have had my N810 for a few months now, and I still do not know how to use everything or what is available for me to download. I need better documentation.

I would also like to see some "web" places which help me find compatible "video news" and "audio news" sites. Many of the videos available on the web will not play on the N810 (too slow?).

wartstew

2008-07-07, 01:00

Thanks for the complements,

What attracted me you your thread was the term "realistically". We can all dream of all kinds of things we would like the N900 to do, but when it comes down Nokia actually producing a device with existing technology at a price that most of us would pay, it puts a lot of restrictions on things.

That said, I can't see where an extra 128mb of ram would cost a lot, unless these things use some kind of expensive low-powered "static" ram or something like that. I also have a fear running a swap file on flash memory (especially a non removable one!) that is likely to wear out the memory. So currently I since Diablo I've tried turning off the virtual memory. I may try reconfiguring the OS to swap to the external flash because at least it is replaceable. The RAM upgrade would mostly fix this problem. 256megs should be enough for the apps that are currently on this unit, but if someone actually does try to port Openoffice over to this thing, it's going to need more.

The little comment I made about voice recognition was born out of my earlier opposition to any kind of PDA device. I felt that inputting information into one was too difficult with the tiny keyboards, poking at a tiny touch screen, or Graffiti and other attempts at handwriting recognition. It seemed to me such a device should have voice recognition instead. I actually don't know if this would work well in practice, although I seem to getting along with it pretty well on my Motorola mobile phone.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-08, 22:34

@wartstew

My pleasure.

I understand that the DSP in the current OMAP can perform the calculations necessary (in real-time presumably) for speech to text. They advertise this capability on the TI site, but I'm not sure to what calculations they are referring. Interestingly, this functionality *should* be possible on the N8x0 right now, but it's going to take a coder with an exceptional amount of knowledge (or drive) to utilize this functionality (and understand the concepts behind this type of capability) to bring about voice recog on the tablets. It *should* be possible, however..

I find that, as tasks get more and more complex, the number of individuals that can effectively complete them tends to decrease proportionally. For example: as far as I can tell, the only member of this forum that's been able to even utilize the DSP has been lardman! I would also love to play around with the OMAP hardware, but sadly, I don't have a) the time and b) a tablet!

I *would* love to see voice recognition on the tablets, though. This would be a killer feature that would have tremendous implications.

}:^)~
YARR!

Schmapt'n

lardman

2008-07-08, 22:58

Has anyone tried festival for speech recognition?

wartstew

2008-07-08, 23:12

Yea, the DSP code is probably something Nokia might have to pay someone to do (but please! keep it open source!). DSP's are generally tricky to program in order to get them to have anything close to the performance that they claim to be capable of. For example, I'm assuming the performance boost that Diablo enjoys with YouTube videos is from tweaking the DSP code, as in earlier versions weren't very good.

Benson

2008-07-09, 00:50

Does festival do speech recognition as well? I thought it was only speech synthesis...

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-09, 01:02

For example, I'm assuming the performance boost that Diablo enjoys with YouTube videos is from tweaking the DSP code, as in earlier versions weren't very good.

Yeah . . . no. YouTube performance boosts are due to Flash performance optimization and general browser performance. There is no DSP acceleration. :)

lcuk

2008-07-09, 02:12

I *would* love to see voice recognition on the tablets, though. This would be a killer feature that would have tremendous implications.

hmmmm..

[nothing more to say]

urilabob

2008-07-09, 04:11

Nice thread.

Number 1: by a wide margin is video out. Something like the mini-dvi socket apple use should fit OK. Ideally, this might have higher res than the primary screen (640*480 would be good enough for my purposes). It's probably the only thing that's going to persuade me to trade up to the N900.

Number 2: more ram - ideally enough to run OpenOffice (quick check on a mac shows it running with < 100MB resident memory, though the virtual size is around 500MB; expanding the ram to 256MB, and fixing the problems that limit swap space size to the same size as real memory, would presumably make it runnable, even if slow).

Number 3: proper PIM support - gpe is OK, but somewhat buggy:
.poor integration with alarms (though it seems to work a little better with diablo)
.limited sync options (I use erminig, but that is limited by the options that google calendar supports)
I'm guessing the "internet tablet is not a PIM" refrain from Nokia was a marketing strategy to differentiate it; but this battle has been won, both by the internet tablet, and by the iphone: no-one is likely to think of the tablet as "just another PIM" now. But there still is a demand for PIM support. A small investment by Nokia (I imagine a couple months work by someone who knows the maemo architecture inside out) would get gpe/opensync working well.

Things I don't want:
keyboard slider - when I want a keyboard, it's much more convenient to use a full-size bt keyboard.

Cheers
Bob

lardman

2008-07-09, 09:05

Does festival do speech recognition as well? I thought it was only speech synthesis...

Ah, yes, I meant Sphinx. Sorry. I don't know what the requirements are for any of these speech recognition codes, but would be interesting to see. Might be worth spinning this off into its own thread if people want to talk about it more.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-09, 13:07

hmmmm..

[nothing more to say]

Haha... I smell a brain a brewin'..

}:^)~
YARR!

Mr. Corrupt

yerga

2008-07-09, 14:14

OpenMoko have a speech recognition project for the GSOC 2008 [1]. It could be factible port it to maemo, when it's functional.

[1] http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/speech/

chlettn

2008-07-09, 17:24

Tbh what I'd like to see most is an indicator about when we can expect a N810 successor...at least some rough hint would be really nice. This year? Q3/Q4?

Seb Per

2008-07-09, 17:41

Benson

2008-07-09, 17:51

I would like Nokia to deliver us a boosted trade-off between processor 's power and battery usage. Something in the class of quantum leap..I think that besides processor and battery know how, it s a question of OS, right?

THen everything else could be made possible.

I'm not even sure what that means, but there's not much optimization left in software. It's chiefly hardware, but since the N900 will be OMAP3xxx based, it'll be about double the performance with the same power consumption.

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-09, 18:09

I'm not even sure what that means, but there's not much optimization left in software. It's chiefly hardware, but since the N900 will be OMAP3xxx based, it'll be about double the performance with the same power consumption.

Well, there's always optimization left to do in software. It just depends on how crazy you're will to get with the hardware-specific hacks, and how much ever decreasing return on investment you're willing to put up with. :p

Baloo

2008-07-09, 18:19

... since the N900 will be OMAP3xxx based

Has this been confirmed officially?

Mara

2008-07-09, 18:29

Has this been confirmed officially?

I don't think so. Likely this happens when "N900" is officially announced. Typically this happens couple months before product launch.

Benson

2008-07-09, 18:31

Has this been confirmed officially?
Not AFAIK, but it's as good as certain.
Well, there's always optimization left to do in software. It just depends on how crazy you're will to get with the hardware-specific hacks, and how much ever decreasing return on investment you're willing to put up with. :p
Like I said:

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-09, 18:35

Has this been confirmed officially?

As Benson says, it's damn near a certainty.

Oh, also, no need for the OMAP3xxx. It'll be the OMAP34xx and 90% sure that it'll be the OMAP3430 from there. ;)

Benson

2008-07-09, 18:53

Yes, but I can't be troubled to remember/look up such details; I thought it was 34xx, and even typed that, but in my distrust of my brain, changed the 4 back to x...

Seb Per

2008-07-09, 19:04

I'm not even sure what that means, but there's not much optimization left in software. It's chiefly hardware, but since the N900 will be OMAP3xxx based, it'll be about double the performance with the same power consumption.

3xxx, 34xx,

Nice to hear... What do we get from this that were IMPOSSIBLE with current devices?

sjgadsby

2008-07-09, 19:08

What do we get from this that were IMPOSSIBLE with current devices?

Well,
...it'll be about double the performance with the same power consumption
...for a start.

Seb Per

2008-07-09, 19:18

Well,

...for a start.

:-)

yes, and if my aunt had b--ls, I would call her my uncle

more seriously?

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-09, 19:23

more seriously?

Uh, that is serious. OMAP3 offers about 2-3x the performance at the same battery consumption levels as OMAP2.

If you really want to read about all the neat features of OMAP3, I've covered it at least a half-dozen times in this thread (likely much more than that).

Here's (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2419202) a good start.

Seb Per

2008-07-09, 19:31

Uh, that is serious. OMAP3 offers about 2-3x the performance at the same battery consumption levels as OMAP2.

If you really want to read about all the neat features of OMAP3, I've covered it at least a half-dozen times in this thread (likely much more than that).

Here's (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2419202) a good start.

Thank you very much GA, I appreciate!!, I ve been away for approx 1 year and it s hard to read through such a long thread. In my opinion, this trade off (power/consumption) is the bottleneck of all such devices ( if you keep volume size and screen size the same).

2-3 x the performance IS serious improvement.

I ll go read right now. thx again.

Mutiny32

2008-07-11, 13:20

More flash, more CPU power (die shrink), 3d acceleration and higher resolution, none of this mini-SD crap (obsolete the day it hit shelves, SIM support (optional), screen flush with faceplate, normal mini-USB, WiMax/Wireless-N, better GPS, Better camera, thinner profile, better placement of power and lock slider keys, stripped down compiz-fusion if I can dream.

Baloo

2008-07-11, 13:25

wartstew

2008-07-11, 17:32

Okay, looking at these OMAP processors (for the 1st time), here is what I see what will happen by moving from the OMAP2420 to the OMAP3430:

1) Improved video performance from 640x480@30FPS to 720x480@30FPS
Also improved CODEC performance such as the ability to decode a full DVD
video stream.

2) Improved camera capability: It can take bigger imagers and process it much
faster. In fact "DVD-quality camcorder" capability is advertised. Of course a
DVD-quality imager and lens would need to be added to make this happen
which I'm sure some compromises would have to me made here.

3) A boost in overall processor speed. Although I'm not sure how that will play
out. It seems like 2D/3D video effects will be better, perhaps some other DSP
functions as well. I'm not sure what the core "ARM" processor will be like other
than its advertised "up to 3x improvement over an ARM11" claim.

4) A decrease in power consumption, but by an unknown amount. Going from a
90nm to a 64nm die size is suppose to decrease power consumption while
increasing speed capability, but as Intel found out a few years back, this
doesn't always yield the results you hoped for. Then there is no guarantee
that Nokia then just put in a smaller battery.

I also noticed is that it should be easy (as in cheap) to add an IR to this thing, so why not do it? I know: "what will you use it for?", but some people would like to use the NIT as a fancy IR remote for their consumer electronics, or maybe use an IR remote to control the NIT.

I guess these things take "Mobil DDR" memory. I'm assuming this is nothing too expensive? I'm not sure, but it looked like the N810's OMAP2420 had 64Megs internal to the processor meaning they added 64Megs external. Hopefully there isn't a maximum address space limitation preventing larger external chips?

One thing that worries me is that it looks like it may only be able to take 1 MMC/SD device in addition to the internal NAND/NOR Flash. Can someone verify this? I would really like to see the root file system on a larger user replaceable memory device, leaving an external [full sized SDHC please] slot for hot-pluggable user data.

Other than that, the prospects of this new processor (assuming it IS chosen) leaves me salivating!

Mutiny32

2008-07-12, 00:47

Oh, and the ability to use and interact with the file systems while plugged in via USB.

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-12, 00:52

3) A boost in overall processor speed. Although I'm not sure how that will play out. It seems like 2D/3D video effects will be better, perhaps some other DSP functions as well. I'm not sure what the core "ARM" processor will be like other than its advertised "up to 3x improvement over an ARM11" claim.

What exactly does "up to 3x improvement over an ARM11" not tell you? :\

4) A decrease in power consumption, but by an unknown amount. Going from a 90nm to a 64nm die size is suppose to decrease power consumption while increasing speed capability, but as Intel found out a few years back, this doesn't always yield the results you hoped for. Then there is no guarantee that Nokia then just put in a smaller battery.

No, the power consumption will likely be almost exactly the same. We're getting a lot of efficiency improvements, but it also has more horsepower. The net effect for power consumption should be about zero.

Oh, and the ability to use and interact with the file systems while plugged in via USB.

This one has been addressed several time before. How, exactly, do you expect to mount one filesystem in two places (note, there's a requirement that the filesystem you use be able to work well with mtd devices).

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-12, 01:26

This one has been addressed several time before. How, exactly, do you expect to mount one filesystem in two places (note, there's a requirement that the filesystem you use be able to work well with mtd devices).

Ah, this is where it pays to be an optimist. Who says in order to interact remotely with a filesystem it has to be mounted? Certainly an SSH session and an FTP session is filesystem interaction and neither requires remotely mounting the host's drive. The only requirement in these cases are cleverly implemented servers on the host.

Good one, Mutiny32, this would be a killer feature of the N900 OS, especially if there was a fancy-schmancy GUI interface for dragging files back and fourth.

}:^)~
YARR!

The Benevolent Corrupt

Mutiny32

2008-07-12, 01:31

This one has been addressed several time before. How, exactly, do you expect to mount one filesystem in two places (note, there's a requirement that the filesystem you use be able to work well with mtd devices). Well, how do people mount network filesystems?

I doubt it is a giant technical hurdle, but people aren't screaming about it because it's no biggie either.

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-12, 01:33

Ah, this is where it pays to be an optimist. Who says in order to interact remotely with a filesystem it has to be mounted? Certainly an SSH session and an FTP session is filesystem interaction and neither requires remotely mounting the host's drive. The only requirement in these cases are cleverly implemented servers on the host.

See, but that's different. There are a thousand and one ways to transfer files easily between the tablet and a computer using either Wifi, Bluetooth, usbnet or, heck, serial. What he asked for was a way to interact with the filesystem, which implies mounting it directly, and you definitely can't mount jffs2 in two places.

It has nothing do to with optimism and everything to do with technical accuracy.

If his question had been "how can I transfer files between the tablet and my computer with usbnet", then I might've answered differently, but that wasn't his question.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-12, 01:54

See, but that's different. There are a thousand and one ways to transfer files easily between the tablet and a computer using either Wifi, Bluetooth, usbnet or, heck, serial. What he asked for was a way to interact with the filesystem, which implies mounting it directly, and you definitely can't mount jffs2 in two places.

It has nothing do to with optimism and everything to do with technical accuracy.

If his question had been "how can I transfer files between the tablet and my computer with usbnet", then I might've answered differently, but that wasn't his question.

Oh please spare me. If you want to be a pedant, then the modification of files and their locations is included in the definition of filesystem interaction. SSH, telnet, and potentially Samba extend this definition greatly.

It does have *something* to do with optimism. An optimistic individual is much more likely (in my experience) to find a solution, even against the odds, while a pessimistic individual perpetually dooms himself to stagnation.

}:^)~
YARR!

Sincerly, Capt'n

lardman

2008-07-12, 09:10

Oh, and the ability to use and interact with the file systems while plugged in via USB.
This one has been addressed several time before. How, exactly, do you expect to mount one filesystem in two places (note, there's a requirement that the filesystem you use be able to work well with mtd devices).

I've got to second the General on this one, how do you expect to do this? You can certainly do it while not plugged in by using a graphical sftp client or a sshfs mount, but if you specifically want to plug in, you'll either be wanting to mount the devices directly on the PC (as happens atm) or start up a gadget-ethernet connection and then do the same as you would over wifi?

There is a fundamental limitation with trying to masquerade as a block device, while something else is also using the device, so then you can't fool it into thinking the cards are mounted but also accessible on the IT. So then you're back to using file transfer over some network connection.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-12, 14:58

I've got to second the General on this one, how do you expect to do this? You can certainly do it while not plugged in by using a graphical sftp client or a sshfs mount, but if you specifically want to plug in, you'll either be wanting to mount the devices directly on the PC (as happens atm) or start up a gadget-ethernet connection and then do the same as you would over wifi?

Well, there you go! A gadget-ethernet connection is an excellent idea that would likely be useful to many that desire only to push files around and/or modify their contents rather than mounting as a mass-storage device (which is what I assume is happening currently). I believe SSHFS and SFTP do not require a network connection, merely a data stream, so even if it wasn't ethernet, an ultra-simple protocol could be devised for this operation via USB (perhaps one already exists?).

In this case, you're not directly modifying the structure of the FS from the remote PC, but indirectly doing so through the aide of a intermediary host driver or server or both.

I don't think mounting is the only requirement for filesystem interaction. It is required to change the structure of information on the physical drive; a task that is handled exclusively by kernel drivers. Even a user-space shell must go through the driver to write anything to the media. The ideas above operate in a similar fashion but only a little farther removed.

}:^)~
YARR!

General Corrupt

talmage

2008-07-12, 16:28

(Disclaimer: I haven't read all of the 750 previous responses.)

I want the N900 to be a single-box, walking around solution for media and navigation. That's the way I use my N800. I think the general public would buy something like that.

I bought my N800 to use as a media device. I put two 16B SD cards in it with all of my music on them. Then I gave my 30GB generation 5.5 iPod to my sister. I chose the N800 over the N810 because of the two SDHC slots. This week, I replaced one of the cards with a 32GB card, moving alll music to it. Canola is the killer app for this purpose.

I also chose the N800 over the N810 because I already had a BT GPS receiver. Maemo Mapper is the killer app here.

But then I started using the N800 for e-mail. In the three or four months I've had it, I've used it more often for e-mail than my other computers. I revert to my laptop when I have to view MS Office attachments, but that's about it. The N800 would rock for e-mail if it had a great, slide out thumb board.

But wait! I found that it can do video + voice over IP. I started using it for VTCs at work. People at work were impressed enough to buy three N810s for that purpose.

The only disappointment about the N800 software is that there isn't a reliable UPnP controller program.

I don't want a phone in the tablet because I want the freedom to choose any provider. I'll use BT PAN or DUN to tether to the phone if I want to pay for a data plan.

So I see the N900 keeping the GPS, camera, and keyboard of the N810 and getting two SDHC slots. The builtin apps will include Canola, Maemo Mapper, modest/tiny mail, a single chat client that joins gtalk and pidgin, MS Word and Excel viewers, and UPnP controller.

Dave

lardman

2008-07-12, 18:26

Well, there you go! A gadget-ethernet connection is an excellent idea that would likely be useful to many that desire only to push files around and/or modify their contents rather than mounting as a mass-storage device (which is what I assume is happening currently). I believe SSHFS and SFTP do not require a network connection, merely a data stream, so even if it wasn't ethernet, an ultra-simple protocol could be devised for this operation via USB (perhaps one already exists?).

This can already be done (gadget-ethernet). Perhaps you want it done more easily, with a GUI for example (which is fair enough).

It's certainly possible to devise other Gadget drivers and protocols, it simply won't happen unless there is a need (i.e. you'll have to do it yourself).

The good thing about mounting as a mass-storage device or an ethernet-gadget device is that these are generally supported out-of-the-box (with the exception of Windows, which doesn't recognise it due to being crap, and therefore needs to be told why it's wrong with linux.inf).

These work, I doubt anyone will replace them unless there is a truely compelling reason. As I said earlier, I just fire up wifi and then use ssh/sftp. I really can't see what the problem is :)

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-12, 21:05

Argument drift? :)

There really is no problem. I was originally proposing the feasibility of file mod via USB and without 'remote' mounting. But, I agree with your points. WiFi SSH/SFTP is sufficient as is USB mass storage.

I *do* however like the idea of plugging in the tablet and having the option of modifying files without having the main fs unmounted by the host. Subtle features like these (in aggregate) greatly improve the usability of the device and make it that much more appealing to the masses, although not necessarily so to the tech-heads.

Imagine what a difference package management (for example) has on N810 adoption. How different would the tablet popularity be if all apps had to be compiled?

Simplicity counts. Usability counts.

This is one area that apple (and even MS) get it right. Users don't need to know much about hardware, software, or configuration to quickly and effectively use their products. For example, the iPhone app store (http://www.apple.com/iphone/appstore/) has pictures, ratings, and descriptions of apps all in one easy to access location. The pictures alone make choosing and installing a far more friendly experience. You can even do this from your desktop.

In all fairness, I see tablet software tending in a similar direction: memo already seems very easy to use, Diablo has its non-destructive firmware upgrades, one click installs exist, etc. This is a good thing. Some community apps (canola, and carman) also hit it spot on.

I would like to see even more slickness, so that my girlfriend can not only pick up the tablet and start using it, but will also rave about the experience. The best part is, all of this is possible in software.

}:^)~
YARR!

Oh Capt'n

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-12, 21:12

@talmage,

That was a great list. What exactly are VTCs?

I know this is not original, but I would like to see Canola packaged with the N9xx. From what I've seen, its full featured, extensible (via plugins), and very, very, slick.

Does RTCOMM support the bluetooth headset ring event? For example, will my paired BT headset *ring* when I receive a SIP call? If not, then I'd like to see this supported as well.

}:^)~
YARR!

Going for a Napt'n

konttori

2008-07-13, 09:28

See, but that's different. There are a thousand and one ways to transfer files easily between the tablet and a computer using either Wifi, Bluetooth, usbnet or, heck, serial. What he asked for was a way to interact with the filesystem, which implies mounting it directly, and you definitely can't mount jffs2 in two places.

It has nothing do to with optimism and everything to do with technical accuracy.

If his question had been "how can I transfer files between the tablet and my computer with usbnet", then I might've answered differently, but that wasn't his question.

As I see it, MTP is quite the ideal protocol to do these transfers over USB. Maybe someone could make a port of that to the n810. There is existing code already available. It's a solution that works on linux and windows out of the box. OSX users need to install some additional stuff (as apple tends to only like their own standards).

tso

2008-07-13, 09:53

MTP, quite a young standard that one. and one that comes out of microsoft even...

qwerty12

2008-07-13, 09:54

I wouldn't want MTP. On my windows machine, I had to mess around with windows media player installs to get it to work.

slha89

2008-07-13, 11:21

There should be a business quality "E820" too, because not everyone wants a slider or want to take a phone to connect to Internet on the way:

- form factor: like E61 (no slider) + materials and shapes from N810 (metal, aluminium), 14mm thick
- screen size: like E61, maybe a bit larger
- screen resolution: 640x360, multi-touch (to touch if installed in a car and for canola)
- keyboard: like E61 (please no flat keys like on N810 or this crap on N82)
- camera: Zeiss with Flash from N82
- GPS with 10hz resolution
- 2x Acceleration sensor
- working 3D chipset + playing HQ videos
- GSM + HSDPA (to take calls too!)
- maybe WiMax (but I think WiMax sucks...)
- 1x Full-SDHC, 16GB onboard
- car mounting kit wich doesn't scratch the device
- ;) carman + canola2 + claws-mail integrated ;)

Edit:
> - camera: Zeiss with Flash from N82

of course, including the open/close mechanism for the lense ;)

And:
- Video out (like on N82)
- hardware bus to play full resolution Video recorded with the digicam
- as screen size is 4:3 like E61, it could be 640x480 too of course ;) (but 640x360 should be enough. I think most of us can life with 480x320 like on iPhone /BB-Bold too)
- rubberish or leather battery lid (to avoid scratches, it looks awful on metal, but acceptable on a rubber/leather surface)

Imagine the case of N810 (a bit smaller) with the front surface (especially the keyboard) of E61, Naviwheel instead of a joystick, VGA cam for Skype Video at the front and the back surface with the cam module from N82.

Nokia, do you hear me? This device with a stable system (maybe dual boot Symbian and Maemo) will blast everything away what's on the market now (and the next few months) if you release on xmas 2008.

For the Internettablet users, which needs a bigger device, a N900 with higher specs must be released too! But personally, I don't need it if I'm away. I'm happy with the multimedia/navigation/phone features of N82, with the keyboard of E61 (for shell + ssh) and with Linux in a pocket. I think and hope, most of the users will be happy with an "E820" too ;)

This thread looks like it can only be one N900 device which fits all. But as every user is different I think this is impossible and it should be two (or maybe three) devices...

talmage

2008-07-14, 15:11

@talmage,

That was a great list. What exactly are VTCs?

A VTC is a video teleconference. I've tried only two-party VTCs. I don't know how the N800 works with multiple parties.

With the N800, we're so close to Dick Tracy's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tracy) two-way wrist TV!

theflew

2008-07-14, 17:14

slha89 you do realize the N7/8XX have 800x600 screens. Why would we want something with a lower resolution? Also I think Nokia would be smart not to add SIM's to the IT. Not only will it add cost, and/or lock you to a carrier. It would be one huge phone. Seeing people hold iPhone's and Blackberry's to there face look funny enough. Imagine the device we're proposing :D. Though it would be a nice accessory module if it such functionality could snap on the back for people that want the ability.

lardman

2008-07-14, 17:28

800x480 afaik

luso

2008-07-14, 17:28

slgee

2008-07-14, 22:36

faster wireless connection!

slha89

2008-07-15, 02:23

slha89 you do realize the N7/8XX have 800x600 screens. Why would we want something with a lower resolution?
You read my post? Everyone must get a N900 if he wants a N900. And you really read my post? I said, an 'E820' should have the size of an E61. That is acceptable as a phone.
And as I said, 'one device fits all' doesn't work, so it should be at least two or three devices.
Do you really read my post at least on a 800x480 screen? ;)

If I'm away from home I can live with 320x240 if I don't want to take two devices with me. So 640x360 is enough in one device. And that's my phone I take with me.

N96
Nice try to joke and thanks a lot you don't read my posting too or don't respect my idea :mad:

colesen

2008-07-16, 06:19

Many webpages are close to 1000 pixels wide so I wish for a 1024x600 display. Perhaps the same 5" as on the Sharp D4. The trade off is more battery drain (60% more pixels), a slightly higher pixel density (237 versus 228) and the display width increase (20mm). Perhaps some of the width increase can come out of the bezel and/or used for a larger battery. 1024x600 also has the advantage that half size full size HD video - 1920x1080/2=960x540 - fits and take the least cpu to scale.

paracha3

2008-07-20, 19:52

Quadband GSM/Triband HSDPA Please! HTC Advantage has it which is huge. Why cant nokia have it in N900 with slightly bigger form factor?

i promise i will ditch my phone because i would rather carry a phone with real browser mainly because i use my phone more for data than voice.

dbec10

2008-07-21, 03:21

What I want on the N900

Same physical size or no more than .1 inch increase to depth or height
No cellular GSM, GPRS, EVDO etc
Ability to change resolution from 800x480 to 1024x768 and back as needed
TI OMAP 34xx processor
Upgrade the RAM to 256MB
802.11b,g,n
longer battery life
USB charging - I may not be able to full charge in an hour. But I can at least work for another 20 minutes. That may be all I need. If I am overseas and forgot my charger this would be essential.
broadcom bluetooth with all the add ons
FM Radio
I guess GPS can stay but I don't really care for it
A little more space between the keyboard and screen
Internal MicroSD card slot with a 2GB card installed
full sized SDIO card slot - so we can add various accessories not just RAM
USB port(s) for connecting usb drives/keyboards or computers/laptops
keep the camera at same res for video calls

Adiditional accessories available in stores (some may already exist)
USB to serial
USB to IR
USB to ethernet
USB to Compact flash
Extended batteries
docking station with stereo out, microphone, 2 USB ports, DB15 VGAout

What would really make or break this device is the software. The iphone does not have any really earth shattering hardware. It sells mostly because of the brand and the sofware.

We need better software. ie.
PIMS with ability to sync (offline) to PCs
Top class email, calender, scheduling, task, todo, notes
Loud alarms
vibration on event
full MS Office compatibility
Best browser ever seen
total or almost total finger control
task switching speed
multi tasking
MS Exchange connection
Black berry server connection (if possible)
all the audio/video codecs known to man that can be pre-installed cheaply
full and complete flash, ajax, java, activex etc support

The N900 should be an excellent tool now and still be relevant 2 years from now. Which is why the full sized SDIO and USB are important as well as the 1024 screen resolution. We need to be able to add features onto the device as demands change.

taimishu23

2008-07-21, 04:45

ouch, my eyes pain @ the thought of having higher res on a similar sized screen. If they can manage such a resolution on a 5in screen that would virtually take up almost all of the face space, I'd bite.

My main gripes with my existing N800 are the cpu speed, memory, and crummy inking experience and hw recog software.

wartstew

2008-07-21, 20:14

I agree that it is useless for all except those with special eyesite to actually use smaller pixel sized screen (thus squeezing in 1024 of them on the same sized screen), the alternative is a 128% wider screen, which maybe could be done if you moved the buttons off the front.

Perhaps a browser option to render side-by-side webpage frames vertically instead of normally could work without too much confusion (I have my doubts).

The vibrator option idea is an interesting new one. Maybe it could also be used as an interesting game-feedback device too?

The loud alarms reminds me of another problem with current hardware: The headphone level is too low. It should be the same level that the iPod has. Companies often have them turned down to avoid lawsuits from those who lose hearing. The problem is that there is too much variation in headphones out there to be able to limit level to a "safe" level for everybody.

Anyway, notice there is a division between those who want to make the unit bigger (whether they think they are or not by asking for things like "better" keyboards, bigger displays, vibrators, etc) and those that don't. My personal requirement is that it needs to fit in the front pocket of my Blue-Jeans.

Perhaps those wanting a larger device should be looking at a traditional Ultra-portable laptop, which the current breed of those have issues, typically with battery life because they at least have the option of running Windows so therefore they run on power hungery X86 processors instead of amazingly power-frugal ARM based ones. So perhaps someone should make a Linux-only ARM based ultra-portable that is about the size of an Asus EEE-PC, that then has better battery life, but then runs Open Office for MS-Office compatibility. Note that this "someone" could be Nokia if they want to enter that market, but my vote is NOT to make the N900 into one of these products.

Benson

2008-07-21, 20:25

Guess I got special eyesight, then. You don't want to be able to resolve individual pixels; that impairs anti-aliasing.

As for how things render, there are settings that can be tweaked to yield the same size text by default, but the really small text, fine details, etc. will be clear.

I'm not sure which you're comparing against, but I'd like the same size device as the N800, with a definitely high-res, and if possible slightly larger, screen, with the d-pad on the left and some other buttons on the right.

Wes Doobner

2008-07-21, 20:35

...much bigger than what they already are and you have an eeepc; what then would be the point?

Wes Doobner

2008-07-21, 20:36

jeebus 1024 fullscreen on these things would be unreadable...?

Wes Doobner

2008-07-21, 20:44

dbec10, what you are looking for sounds something Sony would make and charge $2000 for. Full MS Office suite? Who in god's name needs such a thing from a pocketable internet tablet? AV out, docking station... what in the wide world of sports... I need to be able to afford this next gen tablet!

And "total finger control".... full stop with this repetitive drivel pleeeeeze.

dlhuss

2008-07-21, 21:42

iphone

:p

Benson

2008-07-21, 21:45

iphone

:p

Well, at least that's more concise than "total finger control". (And sounds less like what folks with Parkinson's lack.)

dbec10

2008-07-22, 00:06

By MS office compatibility I was really only referring to Word, Excel and powerpoint. Basically what Documents to go does for Palm. Nothing more.

And the docking station is an optional accessory. ie it does not come with the tablet.

This would appeal to persons who travel with the tablet and would like to have better functionality at a location. Say... home in the den, temporary office, board room presentation, conference, back porch. etc. A place where they can have almost ful PC type functionality without lugging the PC or sub notebook.

The 1024 x768 resolution would come in here with a 15 or 17 inch LCD or projector connected to the docking station.

dbec10

2008-07-22, 00:19

I even had a great idea for an add. Of course based on my N900 requirements.

Mods.. you can move this if you want.

Picture a board room with a couple execs around a table some with laptops, some with journals and portfolios. One of them comes into the meeting and passes behind the company techy who is busy playing a game on his Nokia N900.

The meeting starts and the execs present their budgets or whatever. The techy guy is called to make his presentation and the guy that came in makes a joke that the techy guy is playing on his toy. So give him a minute to collect his thoughts.

Other members are smiling and nodding as the techy guy gets up; goes to the front of the room and docks his N900 with the docking station I spoke about . He connects the projector and...

Silence fills the room....

Wes Doobner

2008-07-22, 00:29

dbec10

2008-07-22, 00:33

For starters he may not be able to play games and make the full presentation before his battery ran out.

It cost him 3 times as much and he can't put it in his pocket on his way to the bathroom.

Not making fun of you. But the reality is that we buy these tablets because they are small, battery runs long and they are cheap.

Benson

2008-07-22, 00:36

Because Nokia isn't trying to sell HP laptops? (Disclaimer: I recently got a tx2000, and I'm loving everything about it but the battery life and Vista.)

Honestly, the reason would be because he doesn't want to carry a laptop everywhere he goes; if the N900 will do the presentation (and the N800 already will, if it's fixed slides) why tote the big iron for that, when the device you already carry everywhere is adequate?

My laptop is dandy, but I only carry it when I anticipate needing it. While it's a joy to use, the bag is heavy, and it's a hassle getting it out and powering it up (Vista :mad:), so it really sees a lot less use than it would if I had no N800.

Edit: Heh. Ninjaed.

dbec10

2008-07-22, 00:39

Another feature I thought about was a mode button.

You press it once and it cycles through a range of settings.
Like presentation mode. - lowest CPU speed, screen saver off, WIFI, bluetooth, alarms off
Silent mode - vibrate on, alarms low, screen off?
travel mode - GPS on, WIFI off, alarms, bluetooth on
Entertainment mode - equilizer on, WIFI on?, bluetooth off, screen brightness low, alarms popup but do not beep, GPS off

etc.. just a thought, may not be practical but it would save us having to do some/all of those settings when the time came. It would be like profiles on Nokia phones.

Wes Doobner

2008-07-22, 00:41

We also buy them as leisure devices, not productivity tools. Why is everyone so fixated on making these things into micro versions of laptop?

I'm sure that if battery power in a boardroom is an issue, tech guy easily locate an outlet to plug into... as far as putting my presentations in my pocket... hasn't really been a concern now in 20 years in the business world. I doubt that pocketable presentations is really "make or break" in the boardroom.

Would make a cool commercial, though... but much like commercials with scenes of BMW's whipping through curvy canyons - not much in common with the real world.

Benson

2008-07-22, 00:42

I'd just say more options in the power-key menu; you can use the d-pad to select those pretty covertly and quickly. Different power-key semantics could also apply (we already can enable semi-broken softpoweroff by double-press/long-press, so it could be adapted for that), but I like the menu better.

Wes Doobner

2008-07-22, 00:47

Because Nokia isn't trying to sell HP laptops?

Heh heh.

My laptop is dandy, but I only carry it when I anticipate needing it.

Like maybe when you give presentations in the boardroom? LOL

Benson

2008-07-22, 00:48

We also buy them as leisure devices, not productivity tools. Why is everyone so fixated on making these things into micro versions of laptop?
My N800 is a micro version of a laptop, already.
I'm sure that if battery power in a boardroom is an issue, tech guy easily locate an outlet to plug into... as far as putting my presentations in my pocket... hasn't really been a concern now in 20 years in the business world. I doubt that pocketable presentations is really "make or break" in the boardroom.The plugin is one more reason not to do the laptop; you can't just bring a laptop, you gotta bring a charger, and make sure your chair's in reach of a plug, etc.

Still, I'm sure nobody's going to buy them on that justification, but I would do that with the tablet I bought for leisure/light work reasons. (I've done nearly that, although in a classroom, not a boardroom... doodled some equations in xournal and showed them using the document camera and projector, not having VGA output at that time.)

Would make a cool commercial, though... but much like commercials with scenes of BMW's whipping through curvy canyons - not much in common with the real world.
:D Indeed.

EDIT:
Like maybe when you give presentations in the boardroom? LOLMan, I set myself up for that... :D But I hope you get my point: I'm an insufferable gadget geek, and if I can do weird stuff with my pocket laptop, I will! ;)

Wes Doobner

2008-07-22, 00:53

My N800 is a micro version of a laptop, already.

It is not, and comments like this are what lead to so many "frustration" post by newbies here. These are NOT mini laptops, they just aren't, and were never designed to be. They are certainly capable machines but they have serious limitations when comparing them to laptops.

The plugin is one more reason not to do the laptop; you can't just bring a laptop, you gotta bring a charger, and make sure your chair's in reach of a plug, etc.

So, better battery technology is the issue? Seriously, I've never been in a meeting room in the last 5 years or so that everyone wasn't plugged in with their laptops. I think this battery thing is a non issue in the context we are discussing. Long battery life is great when you are out and about, not so much an issue when you are in the office environment.

Benson

2008-07-22, 01:05

It is not, and comments like this are what lead to so many "frustration" post by newbies here. These are NOT mini laptops, they just aren't, and were never designed to be. They are certainly capable machines but they have serious limitations when comparing them to laptops.It's a general purpose computer. It runs arbitrary apps. It has a near laptop-resolution screen. It even (sometimes) runs a full desktop OS (Debian). They arguably aren't intended as laptops, but with a little hacking, they most definitely are laptops. For tech users that can do the hacking, of course, not for everyone who picks one up.

So, better battery technology is the issue? Seriously, I've never been in a meeting room in the last 5 years or so that everyone wasn't plugged in with their laptops. I think this battery thing is a non issue in the context we are discussing. Long battery life is great when you are out and about, not so much an issue when you are in the office environment.

Not better batteries, less power-hungry CPUs for doing tiny little tasks like pushing images out a video port. In powersaver profile, and doing only light web browsing, I can't make 3 hours, and I've got the extended battery. It's quite possible to exhaust it in a 2-hour meeting, while the N800 (and presumably N900) you just can't drain it that hard. So, yes, all the laptops are plugged in, but if your N900 (that you're carrying anyway) will do everything you need to do, that's one more hassle of life you can skip right on past.

Still, I think we're not likely to convince each other, so do feel free to reply to anything in this that's worthy of comment, but I'll likely be letting it go after that. ;)

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-22, 05:05

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-22, 05:06

Wes Doobner

2008-07-22, 13:39

Well, for me it's a laptop. They may have certain disadvantages compared to laptops, but they also have many advantages. Including things like pocketability. ;) I guess it boils down more to what it's able to do rather than how quickly it does it. I don't have any trouble doing pretty much all of the things I'd do with a laptop, they're just not done as quickly as with a proper laptop.

I pretty much do all the same things on my tablet that I do on my desktop. It's definitely alleviated any desire I might have ever had for a laptop

I'm not going to argue beyond this point, but... the fact that an internet tablet does everything YOU need a laptop to do, doesn't make them 'laptops'. The reality of the situation is that they can't perform most of what business people actually use laptops for. To argue otherwise is ... just silly.

Gourmand

2008-07-24, 14:21

sorted by prefference:

1st - HARDWARE VIDEO AND AUDIO CODECS SUPPORT!!! This device CAN run DVDs even with full sized XviD/DivXs... And it MUST.
2nd - VIDEO INPUT AND OUTPUT!!!!!
3d - LARGE battery - at least twice larger but better with 4..5 Ah
4th - working driver for WinNT to easily set up PAN over BT or LAN over USB - without any more clicks just Plug-&-Play
5th - two full size SD card instead of one mini-SD - but with same size of the entire device as N810 has
6th - rotation weel at left to easily scroll texts
7th - give us radio back!
8th - joystick near the screen, but not on keyboard - then keyboard can be larger and more useful
9th - more durable case (look at iAudio COWON A2, A3 - if you will drop it it will just jump, but if you will drop N810 it will be the end...)
10th - second camera at back - to allow video shots and Net sharing
11th - 3D acceleration and Compiz/Beryl-like interface using it

Benson

2008-07-24, 14:50

That's a nice wishlist, but "realistically" is in the thread title.

I can see no way to sustain the N810's form factor while cramming all that extra stuff in.

Regarding durability, though... Is the N810 really that bad? I've dropped my N800 at least 3 feet onto concrete while walking, and it's just fine. I'd thought the N810 was of similar durability...

Khertan

2008-07-24, 15:57

Just my 2 cents comments ...

This device CAN run DVDs even with full sized XviD/DivXs... And it MUST.
It already do it ...

11th - 3D acceleration and Compiz/Beryl-like interface using it
lol

4th - working driver for WinNT to easily set up PAN over BT or LAN over USB

6th - rotation weel at left to easily scroll texts
Useless, dpad is more usefull ... this stupid rotation weel never work past 2 month of usage ...

7th - give us radio back!
Useless too ...

9th - more durable case
lol. ... so a larger size ... or a lesser sized screen ... this is suffisant ... mine is already down severall time without any dammages.

10th - second camera at back - to allow video shots and Net sharing
This is not a cam recorder ...

8th - joystick near the screen, but not on keyboard - then keyboard can be larger and more useful
The joystick is great here ... the only things to add to keyboard is tab ...

DistantFire

2008-07-24, 16:53

My only fear in all of this is that the N900 is gonna be way too pricey to grab market share. I'm SO glad I got my N800 before they became rare, because there's no way I'd be shelling out $500+ for the next IT. Now that the N810 is showing up at $299, it's at the point where I might have considered it. But if the next IT is priced where I think it will be, it won't even be something I envy.

Bottom line: What do I realistically want in the next IT? A realistic price.

quicksilver524

2008-07-24, 17:15

make it not so expensive that its like buying a laptop.

speculatrix

2008-07-24, 17:17

did anyone suggest having a supercapacitor in it, so that if the device is deep asleep you can swap the battery without rebooting it, and thus have a spare fully-charged battery ready to go.

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-24, 18:14

did anyone suggest having a supercapacitor in it, so that if the device is deep asleep you can swap the battery without rebooting it, and thus have a spare fully-charged battery ready to go.

Yes, everybody has suggested everything (I've suggested this on multiple times), there isn't anything more to be said here.

wartstew

2008-07-25, 22:47

tso

2008-07-26, 00:21

on the battery issue, i think someone recently applied for a patent on a laptop battery with a built in connector so that it could be hooked up to the power port while removing the spent one and inserting the new.

beyond that i would just ask for this:

go back to the N800's two full size SD slots, put in a bigger ARM cpu and more ram, put in a screen thats similar to recent tablet pc ones. beyond that, dont change a thing.

Benson

2008-07-26, 00:32

Wow, a lot of posts that would lead to making it larger and more expensive!

I agree with those who say to keep it low priced so to compete with the iPod Touch.

Also, lets Keep it small enough to fit in a pocket.

Those wanting it to be a full laptop computer should find an ASUS eeepc forum and tell them to make the next model based on an ARM processor so it will run for more than two hours on batteries, then load it up with all Open Office, VGA in/out ports, keyboard features, etc. In other words please don't ask to make the N900 something that is so different (as in much larger and expensive) that those of
us that bought the current models would not be interested in it!With you that far.

Back to those dreaming about doing the presentation in a board room on a NIT: They forgot that the special docking port would NOT typically be pre-installed in the board room and that it would require external power. By the time you tangle with all that mess you would be better off with a one-piece laptop anyway. Just demand one that has decent battery life. I don't know why every time an advance is made in laptop power, they compensate by putting in a smaller battery!Well, I got tangled up in that, and got too busy defending the N800 is a laptop line to mention that, although I noticed it at the time... And I'm not a real big fan of docks anyway.

But, you're not unambiguously better off with a laptop, unless it's an insanely dinky (smaller than original eeePC) laptop. In the attachments, you can see my normal kit + USB-VGA; as you can see, the kit bag is about as easily pocketable as the N800, and often gets pocketed. The VGA adapter, naturally, doesn't go anywhere without a reason, but can also be pocketed with no trouble. Second picture shows entire contents of bag; third shows the actual setup for projection, with the unused stuff sitting on the bag.

Naturally, for smooth work in a conference room that I know has wireless, I'm not going to have the Ethernet stuff out, so the "tangling with all that mess" boils down to pulling two devices out of a bag, making three USB connections, and the VGA connection you'd need anyway. (If fidgeting with gadgets isn't a problem, I'll probably have the gadget-pulling, two of the three connections, and repocketing done already...)

As fast as a laptop? Not quite, obviously. Is the added delay (~5 seconds) worth lugging a non-pocketable device around for? To me, no way! To others, maybe. But it gets even easier if you have a separate, battery-powered dock, with VGA, USB hub, and batteries to run that and sustain the N900. I'm actually considering integrating mine up that way, but a factory one would be cool, and reduces it to pull dock out, make one VGA connection, and drop N900 in. Not unfeasible, just not quite as slick as envisioned.

It seems like a lot of people who have owned several NIT models seem to like the size of the N800 the best. Maybe if the N900 went back to this size we could get some of these bigger machine features squeezed into it like bigger screen, better keyboards, bigger battery, full-sized SD, etc.Amen! I've actually only had (or even seen) N800s, but I do think the N810 went overboard cutting size.

Finally, the supercapacitor is probably too big. I think a better solution the problem is for a 3rd party to make a sleek, thin external battery pack that nicely attaches on the back of the NIT and plugs in the charger jack. You could probably quadruple the battery life while only adding about 4mm across the whole back of the unit.Possible, but have you seen the high-capacity battery for the N810? Too lazy to dig up the link, but someone makes a thicker battery, which comes with a bulged back-door to accomodate it; much cleaner than a reach-around plug. Unless you're actually going to carry more than one of those, and want to use the charger jack to allow swapping without shutdown, that's just as good, and a touch tidier.

Good to see someone else reading the "realistically", though... ;)

MitcheO1

2008-07-26, 02:08

How about an operating system that really works and when it updates does not crash programs already installed. Like Diablo did to Xjournal, Camera, Videocamera. Not to metion that i have tried several fixes that did not work.
Now i do love my N800. But i would love to be able to not think Microsoft when i use it and it crashed. I would like not to have to be a computer programmer in order to use a product. I would like to just turn it on and have it work. Not to much to ask for. Just have it work.

allnameswereout

2008-07-26, 13:29

Battery life:

* Newer kernel with CFS;
* Suspend-to-RAM included & enabled by default (see n800-s2ram project);
* PowerTOP debugging, also in SDK (works with QEMU?);
* Solar-based power over LCD screen (invented by RuG);
* Teaching users how to improve battery life of Li-Ion battery;

Connectivity:

* 3G functionality in Europe;
* Either no GPS, or a good GPS;

Performance:

* OMAP3;
* 256 MB RAM;
* 3D (for visual effects; related to usability);

..and last but not least for its the most important of an embedded device..

Usability:

* Not 20 applications providing the same functionality (multimedia wise a good example is the many audio and video players); Linux-related problem;
* Replace Navicore with Nokia Maps 2.0 port;
* 3G...
* Hildonized Evolution port, or hildonized maemo PIM;
* Usability-related improvements on the software part (Diablo was an improvement in this regard). Fix important bugs. Realize the huge importance of this.

allnameswereout

2008-07-26, 13:35

(Can't edit my post; page doesn't render well...)

I forgot to add:

Usability:

* Allow better remote management using the NIT; stable rdesktop port, and NX Client Embedded Edition (http://www.nomachine.com/experimental-products.php) port (already ported to ARM!).

iamNarada

2008-07-26, 13:53

Number one on my wish list for the n900 right now. Availability for the holiday season this year. Well, before really, but we're supposed to keep it realistic, so....

tso

2008-07-26, 13:58

Usability:

* Not 20 applications providing the same functionality (multimedia wise a good example is the many audio and video players); Linux-related problem;
* Replace Navicore with Nokia Maps 2.0 port;
* 3G...
* Hildonized Evolution port, or hildonized maemo PIM;
* Usability-related improvements on the software part (Diablo was an improvement in this regard). Fix important bugs. Realize the huge importance of this.

1. community issue, not nokia issue.
2. no clue
3. not going to happen iirc
4. again, community issue
5. ...

allnameswereout

2008-07-26, 14:23

1. community issue, not nokia issue.
2. no clue
3. not going to happen iirc
4. again, community issue
5. ...

1) True, although Nokia has contributed their part to the problem.
2) Is possible because A) Nokia owns the source B) it is already ported to ARM C) directly increase profit for Nokia.
3) A pity, because 3G is rolled out well whereas WiMAX isn't. It allows 24/7 connectivity in contrast to WiFi. Makes the NIT much more valuable.
4) Isn't a community issue because A) Modest issues B) the framework of EDS is there C) the NIT doesn't have something as basic as a good PIM framework. My phone has it, my laptop has it, heck even my DAP has it... but my NIT doesn't.
5) See many other posts, or tabletui.wordpress.com (http://tabletui.wordpress.com). Hire this guy!! :)

tso

2008-07-26, 14:26

3,4) the nit is supposed to pair up with a phone, not replace it...

allnameswereout

2008-07-26, 14:31

Really? Then why does it have Skype, Gizmo..? What you state is precisely my point; its better to have 3G _on_ the NIT, and eventually use a laptop with a NIT for tethering. Means one device less. Its possible to use 3G on a laptop too but maybe Nokia, given their phone business, isn't the right corporation for such an IT...

tso

2008-07-26, 14:40

toss the laptop, use the tablet, optionally with a external keyboard ;)

allnameswereout

2008-07-26, 14:50

Sure, good point. It really depends on the situation. If I go hiking I'd take the NIT (or something similar) with me, not a TP. However, if I can't use it to phone, or if I can't use the GPS...

Bundyo

2008-07-26, 17:40

Um, what exactly 3D has to do with usability? ;)

Karel Jansens

2008-07-26, 20:05

Um, what exactly 3D has to do with usability? ;)
A 2D tablet would really cut you if you tried to hold it?

allnameswereout

2008-07-26, 20:48

Um, what exactly 3D has to do with usability? ;)

I meant a driver for the OMAP24x0's PowerVR allowing a more slick experience without much, if any, overhead. E.g. seeing a window minimizing like on GNOME with compiz. Many mobile devices support it although they not all use the Linux kernel. Pandora will support the PowerVR (different revision), iPhone makes heavy use of it...

Bundyo

2008-07-26, 22:42

allnameswereout

2008-07-26, 23:03

Compiz is mostly stardust... There are usability plugins though - would love to see the screenshot plugin working.

But overall a 3D interface can add nothing to usability, only subtract. Of course everyone would love to see some windows spinning, but while it is pretty, it is not very usable :)

I disagree, and these 2 posts (http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=623731&cid=24311563) describe my point well. 3D is not about eye candy. It is about user experience. That is why it is listed under Usability. The 3D effects have to be a useful addition to the experience. For example like Expose (and its clones) do, or the example I gave of minimizing a window. Besides that some effects give the user a slick feeling but these are only secondary; not the priority.

tso

2008-07-26, 23:51

its user experience, just like a sugar high is...

lets get the basics working first, before we sugar coat everything...

GeneralAntilles

2008-07-27, 00:04

A 2D tablet would really cut you if you tried to hold it?

Funny, gqil made the same joke a few months ago. :p

Many apologies to lcuk for incorrectly attributing this to qgil.

http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2008-04-09.log.html#t2008-04-09T23:23:54

tso

2008-07-27, 00:10

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080314

Bundyo

2008-07-27, 00:11

@allnames..: Tell me what an informative 3D hint will tell you more than an informative 2D one?

allnameswereout

2008-07-27, 01:41

Nevermind the fact that some applications will be better off with hardware rendering (like playing a movie) one has to realize the following propositions:

1) Nokia wants to bring the NIT to a bigger market;
2) Nokia is aiming to improve the usability of the device;
3) Diablo has several usability related changes e.g. not requiring reflashing anymore, and the software update tray icon;
4) The hardware is there, right now, in at least the n8x0 series; unused;
5) Competitors are actively using this very hardware (e.g. smartphones), or going to use a revision of this hardware (Pandora);
6) Besides direct competitors, the main 3 OSes (latest NT series, Vista; latest OSX series, Leopard; latest Linux & X.Org 7.x based OSes) use this functionality.

Back to your question, a valid, related question would be:

What is more user-friendy
1) An error, with sound, with its own theme colour (e.g. gray), popping up on screen, with no hardware rendering;
2) An error, with sound, with its own theme colour (.e.g gray) popping up on screen, with hardware rendering;
3) An error, with sound, fading from the original background of the current application to its own theme colour (e.g. gray), popping up on screen, without hardware rendering;
4) An error, with sound, fading from the original background of the current application to its own theme colour (e.g. gray), popping up on screen, with hardware rendering?

Similar question can be asked related to the minimizing of an application.

What, do you think, feels the best to the user? Although, sure, it does depend on some technical factors there is a general concensus on the correct answer, and it is related to the way the human mind works, and we're talking about a visual interface; not CLI.

What is the first thing you do when someone physically attacks you on the street? You evade the attack.

Although, in the case of an error or information popup, you do want to get the attention of the user, you don't want to harm the peace of mind a user has when she minimizes an application. Therefore, the above minimizing example counts more than the information popup (cleverly picked to support your argument I give you that...), but it doesn't mean the example is irrelevant, and there is room for further development. For example, I would like to see an information popup showing where the heck it is related to. IOW, visually showing its parent application.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-27, 04:03

Up front: I'm an advocate of 3D for usability. Much of it is glitz, which *can* enhance the user experience, but it also opens the door for new types of visualization that can provide novel ways of usefully viewing/using information not possible with static perspective 2D (a coined term representing classic Win95-esque desktops).

Take a look at this (specifically the first half). It's a good example of what is possible with acceleration mixed with cleverness.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_demos_photosynth.html

Sure this can be done in 2D, but I'm guessing that it would more easily and efficiently be accomplished with 3D hardware; not to mention kinder on the battery of certain tablets.

Even glitzy compositing windowing systems like compiz fusion receive usability benefits from acceleration.
1) Zoom out to see all windows
2) Zoom in to magnify
3) True transparency of varying opacity
4) Quick tiling of windows for application selection.
5) Increased UI responsiveness

}:^)~
YARR!

Caaaaap

Bundyo

2008-07-27, 06:21

tso

2008-07-27, 10:46

funny thing is that before we hade the 3D/gpu all upper tier grpahics cards did something called 2D acceleration. mind you, this is from as far back as windows 3.x or the isa bus...

these days the same feature have been folded into the 3D chip...

Gourmand

2008-07-27, 11:05

This is not a cam recorder ...

this is for online sharing in Internet (web-cam)
but
COWON iAudio A2 (A3) is not a recorder too;
it has almost same ARM processor with DSP on the board;
and it records 640x480, 30 fps, AVI with MPEG-4 compression as well...

allnameswereout

2008-07-27, 13:28

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not against 3D and I'm not talking about hardware acceleration.

@allnamesareout and Capt'n Corrupt: The things you describe are just 2D done with hardware acceleration. I'm talking about things like 3D cubes and animating windows (axis rotation or melting to statusbar like in OSX and Compiz). They sure are pretty, but if you are trying to do something fast - they tend to just get in the way. iPhone out of this (didn't see one), but HTC TouchFLO is horrible and the various touch interfaces based on gestures i've seen are pointless and slow (not the effects, but the usage). I'm still using them though, since WM is even worse. :)

Hmm, I'm not sure the minimizing I describe is strictly 2D. If you see the window minimizing and going to the taskbar while seeing its artifacts going to the taskbar icon, being smaller, it is 3D.

If you think of useful 2D and 3D effects, I believe it is first important to observe how competitors and other devices (sometimes using the same soft- or hardware) provide these effects and what their usage is. That way, only useful effects are implemented, and I tend to believe there are various useful 2D effects like the ones I stated. Problem is: there is no hardware acceleration. The community could add these effects or build upon previous source code provided there is hardware acceleration, but the driver isn't there. Therefore, it should be first priority to get the driver (PowerVR) working on the NIT. It is difficult to test the PowerVR in a Scratchbox though because this is't emulated by QEMU and the performance isn't measurable.

The iPhone is quite an interesting machine to observe for usability analysis. I highly recommend you to review it for this purpose, there is much to be learned from this device. Mind you, I don;t like Apple, I don't like vendor lock-ins, I don't like proprietary software or hardware, the iPhone has its disavantages IOW I don't see it as the creme de la creme; however, it is a device to analyse for this purpose.

We agree more than it may seem. For starters, it is important one is able to put such effects off.

The NIT has a stylus, and allows finger mode too. Therefore, it has to support (together with its applications) 2 modes of operation: 1) stylus 2) finger. Some applications have a wide vertical bar while others have a tight one. IMO, there should be 2 modes which one is able to set. Based on that, the tablet goes into 'stylus' or 'finger' mode. This goal is partly succeeding.

The NIT has a battery, and AC plug. Therefore, it has to support 2 modes of operation: 1) power saving / energy efficient mode 2) experience mode and eventually 3) hybrid. Mode 1 is for battery when absolute battery longevity is required. The screen is, by default, lit on a minimum, daemons like tracker are disabled (metacrawler?), and everything is extremely fast. 2) everything is instead enabled for maximum user expereince 3) this is a hybrid. In relation to power saving it also has to support Suspend To RAM.

I want to write more, but I must go now. Maybe I edit my post later because I'd like to give some more examples of useful effects I use in GNOME 2.22, talk about MDI versus tabs, and related to the latter an example in Pidgin where I believe it'd be useful to inform the user better (this is Pidgin related; not strictly maemo related, but it describes a general problem).

sjgadsby

2008-07-27, 13:41

The NIT has a stylus, and allows finger mode too. Therefore, it has to support (together with its applications) 2 modes of operation: 1) stylus 2) finger.

All indications are that the next major OS release, Fremantle, will establish a consistent, finger oriented UI.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-27, 13:43

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not against 3D and I'm not talking about hardware acceleration.

@allnamesareout and Capt'n Corrupt: The things you describe are just 2D done with hardware acceleration.

I'm actually not disagreeing with you. Yes the things described are just 2D done with acceleration. I'm merely suggesting the benefits of having these transformations done in hardware designed for this type of task; in this instance 3D acceleration. The benefits are higher performance, lower power requirements, and familiar APIs to work with.

In addition to enhanced zooming, real transparency, and smoother movement, 3D hardware is a very capable of real-time 2D vector renderer; a tremendous tool for enhanced visualization of certain types of data.

But I'm not ready to count out (just yet), the use of actual 3D in the UI simply because I haven't seen a great use for it yet. The ability to rotate and zoom on a constricted desktop could open the door for much simpler and more intuitive interfaces -- if done right, of course.

I'm talking about things like 3D cubes and animating windows (axis rotation or melting to statusbar like in OSX and Compiz). They sure are pretty, but if you are trying to do something fast - they tend to just get in the way. iPhone out of this (didn't see one), but HTC TouchFLO is horrible and the various touch interfaces based on gestures i've seen are pointless and slow (not the effects, but the usage). I'm still using them though, since WM is even worse. :)

For the most part, it does seem superfluous, especially since some peoples desktops are jammed with every possible visualization (paper airplanes, fire, snowflakes, etc). However, this isn't always the case. Some 3D GUIS are quite subtle and most importantly many people seem to respond very well to them (OSX).

For example, my girlfriend, a very casual user, finds the mac OSX GUI far more pleasurable than WinXP, even when only using firefox and word. What's the difference? As far as I can tell: window dressings and animation. But it would seem that a lot is packed into those window dressings and animation. From my perspective it 'feels' more smooth, solid, and stable, while the comparatively jerky draw-bit-by-bit WinXP is more annoying. I know the smooth, solid, and stable, 'feeling' is an illusion (the apps are the same after all), but it appeals to something human in me.

Don't read this the wrong way: I respect your position, and am not arguing nor am I trying to convince you. 3D can be superflous and is certainly not for everyone.

}:^)~
YARR!

Corruption above

Bundyo

2008-07-27, 14:52

I'm not arguing too, certainly 3D interfaces have their place in our world - they are a big user magnet and we will see them more and more often from now on. I'm just saying that for now their usability is nonexistent and people tend to switch them off after some days/weeks/months (of course if that's possible). For instance - a good interface should have everything a couple of clicks away. What we are facing now in the mobile world is an awful number of clicks, gestures and effect waiting to get to what you need. Of course the screen estate is limited, but i'm starting to forget in which direction i should swing my finger away. And with these patents for touchless interfaces i'm starting to wonder when the arthritis will hit me :) At least the effects should be optional, unless the developer forgot to include that :)

lardman

2008-07-28, 12:25

7th - give us radio back!
Useless too ...

I disagree, with the correct chipset we could get RDS-TMC and try hacking into it :)

luso

2008-07-28, 18:42

well, as time goes by our expectations increase. Every week we see new stuff coming up on the news (Engadget, Crunchgear, Cnet, Pocket-link, etc.). We have a moving target...

dan

2008-07-28, 20:30

i would just like to see anything new from Nokia that does not resemble a repackaged N810. ;)

Omega

2008-07-29, 00:03

o Faster CPU.
o Waaaayyyy more onboard storage.
o Wayyyyyyy more RAM.
o Hardware accelerated graphics 2D and maybe 3D?
o Longer battery life.
o Extremely high accuracy GPS...
o Really long range on the wifi. 802.11n?
o Developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers....

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-29, 03:01

o Developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers....

You remind me of Steve Ballmer! :D

}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Capt'n Capt'n ...

mullf

2008-07-29, 03:05

All indications are that the next major OS release, Fremantle, will establish a consistent, finger oriented UI.

Bah. The stylus is not the problem with the tablets.

dantrevino

2008-07-29, 04:08

* quad band gsm
* faster cpu
* more ram
*

XTC

2008-07-29, 05:53

* quad band gsm
* faster cpu
* more ram
*

I've always been a fan of "all-in-one" solutions but - the last thing I'd like to do is to carry the tablet as my phone.
You can always have very slim and small phone so carrying both is no longer an issue (I use E51).
I've dreamed about phone with "everything possible" but I've found that even with E51 connecting and disconnecting headphones (I don't like using them for calls) makes me forget about E51 as music device etc.
Maybe I'm just getting older but I think it's fun to have "equivalents" of all devices in one but not for regular usage.

fanoush

2008-07-29, 07:21

The NIT has a stylus, and allows finger mode too. Therefore, it has to support (together with its applications) 2 modes of operation: 1) stylus 2) finger. Some applications have a wide vertical bar while others have a tight one. IMO, there should be 2 modes which one is able to set. Based on that, the tablet goes into 'stylus' or 'finger' mode. This goal is partly succeeding.
This is how it worked in OS2007, you had 2 modes, pressing by finger gave you big start menu, touching by stylus gave you small one. They removed this feature in OS2008. Let's hope they will add it back in some form (even static stylus/finger mode choice in control panel would be good for me).

Karel Jansens

2008-07-29, 10:41

This is how it worked in OS2007, you had 2 modes, pressing by finger gave you big start menu, touching by stylus gave you small one. They removed this feature in OS2008. Let's hope they will add it back in some form (even static stylus/finger mode choice in control panel would be good for me).
Yes, we can hope.

But the sad fact is that it's simply easier/cheaper for Nokia to ignore useful UI features and just go for the iPhone-copying finger sh*te.

"We are Apple/Nokia/Microsoft. You will be dumbed down. Resistance is clever. But futile".

mrp

2008-07-29, 12:25

3G for real mobility

TA-t3

2008-07-29, 14:31

I've got a phone already (actually I've got more than one), there's no need to have built-in 3G in the NIT and yet another SIM card and carrier contract. And a NIT, to be useful, is too large to use as an all-purpose (thus only) phone. IMO there's absolutely nothing whatsoever to gain by having a phone built into the NIT.

If it's not clear from the above I'm stating that I strongly disagree with the previous poster and also the earlier post above about 'quad band gsm'. :D

sellier

2008-07-29, 20:44

Full open source.
Hardware and software.

Bundyo

2008-07-29, 22:13

That's not very realistic in a mobile world. :)

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-29, 23:33

Perhaps a good solution to those wanting a tablet and a phone would be a differently branded device (E900 or something) that expanded upon the Nxxx line with a cell radio and the necessary software to drive it.

I for one would heartily leap at such a device. I suppose I'm pro phone. Of course, I currently don't have a mobile but would like one at some point. The prospect of buying two separate devices is not very appealing for me.

If wimax ever gets sorted (and is reliable), this is a moot point, as I'll happily use the N810w for VoIP. My only wish would be the ability to hold it to my head for quick, private calls.

}:^)~
YARR!

McCapt'n

Benson

2008-07-30, 00:03

Already can use (the N800) as a headset; just crank the volume down. And as much as my mobile is audible from all directions, even the N810's side-facing speakers should pose no problem.

Omega

2008-07-30, 00:45

You remind me of Steve Ballmer! :D

}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n Capt'n Capt'n ...

:O

!!!!

I'm insulted! ;)

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-30, 12:35

Already can use (the N800) as a headset; just crank the volume down. And as much as my mobile is audible from all directions, even the N810's side-facing speakers should pose no problem.

That's great news. I fully intend to do this. Is there easy balance control on the speakers? Have you personally tried holding the phone to your ear? Can I run scripts/commands from RTCOMM upon incoming call, text, or other?

Given the hardware, I think an app that had phone like functionality would be useful for a select few. I'm sure that it would have to numb the display to input from ones cheeks during a call and adjust speaker levels, but even for the original N810, it would be a useful to have around the house/cafe/etc.

}:^)~
YARR!

'High-seas' Corrupt

Mara

2008-07-30, 13:11

That's great news. I fully intend to do this. Is there easy balance control on the speakers? Have you personally tried holding the phone to your ear?

Just a warning that be prepared someone making joke with you... :rolleyes:

Anyone remember the N-gage sidetalking?
http://www.sidetalkin.com/page-1.html :D

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-30, 14:20

Just a warning that be prepared someone making joke with you... :rolleyes:

Anyone remember the N-gage sidetalking?
http://www.sidetalkin.com/page-1.html :D

Har har... Or worse, they might mistake it for a dreaded iPhone... :D

<offtopic>
By the way, I got a chance to try a 3G iphone out the other day in a Rogers store. I was 'impressed' for all of 30 seconds before I got utterly bored with it. I think it was the low resolution and the closed nature that turned me off. I like the ability to customize, tinker, and build, but the iPhone, sadly, seems to offer little of any of these characteristics. Although the iPhone/NIT are similar in capability, the closed nature of the iPhone is a huge turn-off for peeps like I.
</offtopic>

}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n 'beer-belly' Corrupt

speculatrix

2008-07-30, 14:53

Anyone remember the N-gage sidetalking?
http://www.sidetalkin.com/page-1.html :D

it's be worse with the n800 because the microphone is at the top/middle, so you'd be holding it in a very peculiar way. not sure where the microphone is on the n810 or 770.

Benson

2008-07-30, 14:55

That's great news. I fully intend to do this. Is there easy balance control on the speakers?Not easy (requires software installation), but possible. Not really needed (on the N800, at least) because you have the volume way down, and the other speaker is pointed at your jaw, there's no significant sound leakage from it. Again, with the N810's side-firing speakers, I can't say, but it might be worth it.

Aumix exists (in some repo, maybe extras), and I think it's scriptable.

Have you personally tried holding the phone to your ear?Yes, after hearing it recommended in these fora. Of course, since I use my tablet as a music player, I just use a headset for calls as well, but I did try it.Can I run scripts/commands from RTCOMM upon incoming call, text, or other?Dunno.

Given the hardware, I think an app that had phone like functionality would be useful for a select few. I'm sure that it would have to numb the display to input from ones cheeks during a call and adjust speaker levels, but even for the original N810, it would be a useful to have around the house/cafe/etc.
Maybe, but it'd be a very select few... I'd just recommend this (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/8928/). (And I'm not really joking; if you want to use the N800 in phonish fashion, that's really not a bad plan, leaves the N800 usable while on-line, and it should definitely work.)

Mysticode

2008-07-30, 15:26

I'm mostly happy with my n800. The only three things I would like to see in the next model are:
* good hardware support for video playback
* official A2DP support
* a nice line of cases from Nokia - preferably with the option of a belt-clip case

I don't think the n*** needs a cellular transceiver - I'm fairly sure I wouldn't want to use it as my primary phone as it is too big.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-07-30, 20:55

Maybe, but it'd be a very select few... I'd just recommend this (http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/cellphone/8928/). (And I'm not really joking; if you want to use the N800 in phonish fashion, that's really not a bad plan, leaves the N800 usable while on-line, and it should definitely work.)

This is definitely an option. Another option would be a usb handset/headset. They are both plentiful and cheap, and I doubt require much current. I could be wrong about this.

I also have a bluetooth headset, but hate wearing it with me everywhere on off chance that I receive a call (and it's one of the smaller ones). I'd much rather just pick up the NIT and start to talk. It's not so bad at home, I have privacy, so speaker would work well for quick conversation, but on the road, I would rather not juggle many devices for this simple function.

I'm hoping that the NIT to-ear works well...

}:^)~
YARR!

Zappertain Corrupt

slha89

2008-07-30, 23:01

Just got my hands on the new Blackberry Bold. Wow! What a nice device. It looks like Blackberry hear my cry: very solid hardware & keyboard with leather backside (scratches on leather doesn't look that awful than on metal finish).
Now, Nokia should do a smaller N900 with the form factor of BB-Bold, integrate all my wishes including Maemo, free Nokia Maps and I promise again, this will be the killer device!

danramos

2008-07-30, 23:26

I've held off buying the n810 because I didn't like a few things that changed from the N800 to the N810, particularly the lack of a second SDHC slot (getting stuck with an unremovable 2GB is unacceptable to me and seems like a step backwards from the N800 model).

Here's what I'd like to see in a newer model, realistically, and would effect my decision to immediately jump out and buy one.. I'll break it down into three categories: important things to retain from current models, new things I want to see and, lastly, things I don't want to see. :)

IMPORTANT THINGS TO RETAIN FROM CURRENT MODELS:
n800: TWO SDHC slots
n800: Speakers in the FRONT (On the sides/back on the n810? Weak.)
n800: Directional and other controls on the face
n8x0: Kickstand (one of the things that immediately impresses EVERYONE as useful)
n810: GPS built-in (wish I'd had that in my n800, very cool integration)
n810: Slide-out keyboard (more of a want, not a real NEED, I've found)
n810 WiMax Edition: The black metal style--MUCH nicer than anything else so far.

THINGS I WANT TO SEE:
Mouse support! PLEASE! There are many times where I'd LIKE a more accurate way to draw (with a drawing tablet) or hover over things (web browsing, tooltips, etc.) There would NOTHING quite like folding out my already-working Bluetooth keyboard and my almost-working Bluetooth mouse and my N800 tablet down.. and then effectively having the most portable faux laptop experience.
Open drivers to hardware (if Neuros can do this with frighteningly similar hardware--why can't a bigger, more established player like Nokia?)
Of course, faster processor and more memory.. my Palm Tungsten T5 is faster than either the N800 or the N810 and the T5 isn't even a Linux based Internet Tablet.

THINGS I DON'T WANT TO SEE:
Cell phone radio (I would prefer to have an external Bluetooth phone or USB modem device to do wireless networking so that I'm not tethered to a particular service)

Thesandlord

2008-07-31, 00:29

Picklesworth

2008-07-31, 00:37

Softer plastic or rubber keyboard keys that can be easily felt and are less slippery.
Slight gap between keyboard keys.
Less gap between parts of the device; my N810 has become a magnet for those little circles of paper from hole punches.

danramos

2008-07-31, 01:59

How is a mouse more accurate than a touch screen? Thats confusing...
And there is mouse support, at least for USB (which I use). Bluetooth sometimes works. I use a wireless USB mouse, so its all good...

A touchscreen is VERY inaccurate even with a stylus. Firstly, a finger is a blunt object--so that's patently less accurate. Secondly, a stylus point press on a touchscreen is a guessed value based on contact points that feel pressure. Lastly, since you have to cover the spot to press the spot--you can't always see what you're drawing or pressing on.

If I could plug in my drawing tablet, I can DEFINITELY draw more accurately and with better ergonomics on-the-go. Also, a mouse will allow me to drag better, select whole lists (with a keyboard's CTRL and SHIFT keys) and so on. Just a WHOLE lot more accuracy and comfortable.

As for support--not without hacking.. and then it's not very good from what I've read (although I've yet to try it myself). I have a bluetooth mouse as well as a USB dongle to plug in an IMPS/2 style USB scroll-wheel mouse and it besides recognizing it as a mouse device, the GUI doesn't use it at all--no pointer, nothing. So it's obviously not supported by default for ordinary users.

Anyway.. that's not the topic of this thread, but my wants and needs are there for this. :)

Thesandlord

2008-07-31, 02:11

@danramos - My bad. I didn't really understand what you meant. Yea, on the tablets its sometimes hard to click links and such.

As for support--not without hacking.. and then it's not very good from what I've read (although I've yet to try it myself). I have a bluetooth mouse as well as a USB dongle to plug in an IMPS/2 style USB scroll-wheel mouse and it besides recognizing it as a mouse device, the GUI doesn't use it at all--no pointer, nothing. So it's obviously not supported by default for ordinary users.

Anyway.. that's not the topic of this thread, but my wants and needs are there for this. :)

Actually its pretty good. Its in the repos now (called USB-mouse or something). Its just plug and play for me. The mouse cursor can be easily changed from invisible as well. But I agree, true mouse support would be nice, and even nicer would be a USB host port. With more and more devices with OTG and even Host (Pandora, UMPC, etc...) the N900 will need it.

danramos

2008-07-31, 02:25

@danramos - My bad. I didn't really understand what you meant. Yea, on the tablets its sometimes hard to click links and such.

No problem at all. :) That gave me a chance to elaborate my reasons and hopefully Nokia's folks will take it to heart better than just a one-off suggestion or critique.

It's also worth noting that I'm EXTREMELY pleased with my N800 and that many of my friends have gone out and bought N800's because of sheer envy. They can see me using it practically every hour of the day for SOMETHING (most often to listen to podcasts (THANK YOU GPODDER! yes--I donated.. heheh), sometimes to help me RECORD a podcast live wherever I am (I host a show--and yeah, I've plugged it there too.. hyeah!), often to check RSS feeds for things like Slashdot/Groklaw/etc and to check weather (THANK YOU OMWEATHER!!), and so on). So I want to take this moment to thank Nokia for this Linux based and.. MOSTLY.. open-source device. It can still be improved.. by a lot and without a lot of expense.. but EXCELLENT showing so far. :)

OK.. sorry for that chest-thumping moment.. on to the rest of the quote..

Actually its pretty good. Its in the repos now (called USB-mouse or something). Its just plug and play for me. The mouse cursor can be easily changed from invisible as well. But I agree, true mouse support would be nice, and even nicer would be a USB host port. With more and more devices with OTG and even Host (Pandora, UMPC, etc...) the N900 will need it.

Agreed wholeheartedly on your points! I'll have to give this USB-mouse a go. I don't see it on the repository, though.. which one? I'll have to snoop around a bit and see if I'm overlooking it.

ALSO.. for the N900.. I want 1024 horizontal resolution.. forgot to mention that. Nevermind the folks saying it'll make text too small... that's what font sizes and zooming buttons are for. I just want the potential for very dense resolution. This is more of a WANT than a need, again.. but sometimes it's been a need depending on the situation.

Danke shoen! :)

Benson

2008-07-31, 14:20

danramos

2008-07-31, 18:59

Don't think it is in the repos... There was a wiki page with a link to the deb at electronicproductonline (jolouis's shop), but the wiki seems to be broken...

Edit: The wiki's back! http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bluetooth_and_USB_mouse

You are THE MAN! Thanks a lot! I'll give that a go! (Getting back on-topic, I DO hope they make this actually supported in future tablets. Want!) :)

Thanks again!

lardman

2008-07-31, 19:42

Non-crappy built-in GPS chipset

I'd have thought this will be pretty high up the list of things to fix, it's certainly been noticed by lots of people in a negative way. I can't imagine Nokia will ignore this.

As for the rest:

* TI OMAP 3440 core with working OpenGL drivers
* CPU in the 800MHz range.
* Color bump on the LCD
* Similar or better battery life
Yes please to the above.

* Doubled RAM/Flash
Not too bothered about this, more RAM will reduce battery life.

* Dual SD-card slots
* Wifi/Bluetooth but no stupid cellular radio of any sort
* Ambidextrous button layout (twice the buttons, twice the fun!)
* No slider.
I need a keyboard, please keep the slider!

* Resolution bump on the LCD to ~1024x600
Not too bothered, text is too small at that DPI anyway, better to have a more fluid zoom like on the iPod, etc.

* Accelerometer-based screen rotation
Sounds good :) (not for the rotation, for the hacking :))

* Multitouch
* h.264 hardware video decoding
On the OMAP3xxx this will be on the DSP, so we can do it ourselves if needs be. OpenMAX DSP components though please, let us use the closed source stuff in our pipelines!!

* Video-out of some kind
Definitely, this would be very cool (think presentation at LinuxTag :))

danramos

2008-07-31, 20:47

I'd have thought this will be pretty high up the list of things to fix, it's certainly been noticed by lots of people in a negative way. I can't imagine Nokia will ignore this.

As for the rest:

* TI OMAP 3440 core with working OpenGL drivers
* CPU in the 800MHz range.
* Color bump on the LCD
* Similar or better battery life
Yes please to the above.

* Doubled RAM/Flash
Not too bothered about this, more RAM will reduce battery life.

* Dual SD-card slots
* Wifi/Bluetooth but no stupid cellular radio of any sort
* Ambidextrous button layout (twice the buttons, twice the fun!)
* No slider.
I need a keyboard, please keep the slider!

* Resolution bump on the LCD to ~1024x600
Not too bothered, text is too small at that DPI anyway, better to have a more fluid zoom like on the iPod, etc.

* Accelerometer-based screen rotation
Sounds good :) (not for the rotation, for the hacking :))

* Multitouch
* h.264 hardware video decoding
On the OMAP3xxx this will be on the DSP, so we can do it ourselves if needs be. OpenMAX DSP components though please, let us use the closed source stuff in our pipelines!!

* Video-out of some kind
Definitely, this would be very cool (think presentation at LinuxTag :))

I think I agree with a lot of that--but I don't think I care about the color increase--that would put more overhead on the CPU (also lowering the battery time as well). If the CPU has to do more work, it would do less work and would serve a better purpose having a high resolution screen--particularly for web browsing. I disagree that it would be hard to see at that pitch, though. This is a tablet device--near to your face--not a laptop on the desk at arms'-length.

More RAM would be MUCH better--it will MAYBE reduce battery life a little bit but the advantage of doubled memory is well worth the difference. A different, newer, battery might be in order here too. (I'll bet memristors would DEFINITELY solve this problem someday)

I couldn't care TOO much about the slider. If I really need a keyboard, I find it's better to use my folding BT keyboard.. and for anything else on-the-go, the touchscreen is fine as a keyboard. I think the slider adds unnecessary weight and battery drain (backlight, resistance, etc.). With the N800, I've never really had a problem with not having a keyboard to slide out.

Open hardware--definitely. I heartily agree that Nokia needs to open this up more. Nokia is there to sell customers what they want--not make it more attractive for a competitor to come along and snag away customers to a more open and useful platform when they come along and sell us something closer to what we actually wanted.

Video out--would be nice. Very nice! If it adds too much expensive and hardware, I'd probably rather not have it.. but there have been impromptu moments where I TRULY wish it did that. (meetings, gatherings with friends, etc.)

There's my $2 (inflation! whew!)

lardman

2008-07-31, 21:29

lol, I replied to the General's post which is 3rd or so in this thread (i.e. on page 1!), my fault, changed to the low bandwidth mode and got confused :)

andreww

2008-07-31, 22:26

Well, I think he got it almost exactly right. I wouldn't mind more RAM, but I _do_ want a sliding keyboard.

I think full USB (including standard power) support to handle all of the other cases more easily (cell, external display, etc) would go a long way.

It's good to stay focused on the hardware, the software can be worked out later :)

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-08-01, 01:14

lol, I replied to the General's post which is 3rd or so in this thread (i.e. on page 1!), my fault, changed to the low bandwidth mode and got confused :)

Har har... I was wondering about that! It's funny, but the post did seem familiar!

}:^)~
YARR!

Father Corrupt

allnameswereout

2008-08-01, 16:36

What is more important: more RAM or faster CPU?

IMO CPU, because starting & using MicroB (even w/o extensions) is simply too slow for fast usage. The NIT should IMO be a device you pull out of your pocket to look up something quickly. Some functionality is quick like RSSm weatherm or e-mail but there are some options you really need a browser for. For example: to look up when a train arrives, or a price check on a product while you're shopping.

It is also important to note that the competition is in usability and the hardware / price for money field. Tablets will become more popular, and there are already competitors & clones coming out too. Nokia will have to decide its position on the market, and the N900 is an ideal milestone to do so.

PS: I am interested in making an objective Wiki page about this subject with all the pros and cons outlined. The idea is to devide in 3 parts: 1) small changes (e.g. a bug or feature previously in a NIT) 2) big changes (ie. things Nokia would use in a marketing announcement) 3) research / expensive changes (like e.g. solar power, totally different hardware platform, and so on). What more should I keep in mind before I start?

j'vai

2008-08-01, 16:55

an app similiar to JoikuSpot on symbian, or netshare on iphone, or wifiradar on winmob! turns your n810 into a wifi access point via your bluetooth connected cellphone's data connection. good for quick fixes in binds when there isn't a wifi network anywhere & you just gotta get or send that file from your laptop.

that would be a very useful app.

tso

2008-08-01, 17:16

err, your thinking about going laptop -> wifi -> n810 -> bluetooth -> phone?

get one of those coin sized bluetooth dongles then...

Thesandlord

2008-08-01, 17:36

No, he means Phone -> Bluetooth -> N810 -> WiFi -> Laptop/etc :D

Yea, i know you can pair via bluetooth, but think about it. You have to pair all your devices with the phone, or you can just pair your n810 and create a hotspot that any device with WiFi can use. For example, if you and your three friends are on a trip, and you all want to use your laptops, you guys can't all connect to a single phone, even if all the laptops had bluetooth. So, you create a mobile WiFi hotspot and bang, instant internet.

I know for sure there is a linux app like this. In any case, it can be done. The IT is basically a full laptop, and internet connection sharing has been a norm for a long time. But I don't think we are going to see this built into the N900. This will have to come from a 3rd party. Nokia wants you to use their device, not another.

tso

2008-08-01, 17:48

im not sure the wifi chip can do AP mode, as i think someone poked at it before and got nowhere.

beyond that it would be a case of firewall/router settings.

voop

2008-08-02, 10:20

What I'm looking for in the N900 is:
[LIST]
the "peripherals" of the N800 (SD card size, radio chip, no GPS, no slider)

You're the n'th person whom I've seen that would get rid of the slider [keyboard, I presume] and I just don't get it. The existence of a physical keyboard was what made me buy the N810.

The N770 that I acquired when they first came out has been largely unused due to its lack of hardware keyboard, the N800 was equally unattractive and for the same reasons (an "on-screen-keyboard" is just not good for text input, regardless of what Apple claims...it's just far from the typing-comfort that I need. I use text-input extremely intensively on the road) and so I skipped the N800.

What I'd love to see in a N910 would be a keyboard as in the good old Psion 5Mx PDAs, plus a bit more memory and general horsepower.

Of course, Nokia should make a N900 without a keyboard for those who want a crippled device ;)

I guess that what I'm saying is "different strokes for different blokes", and that the existence of a Nx00/Nx10 without/with keyboard is optimal.

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-08-03, 13:45

konttori

2008-08-03, 16:16

Just out of curiosity, isn't the n810wimax exactly the wide area networkd device you are mentioning cc?

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-08-03, 18:06

Just out of curiosity, isn't the n810wimax exactly the wide area networkd device you are mentioning cc?

Thanks konttori...

The N810w certainly is that device... I'm just wondering how many people actually *want* a device like this. From the chatter, it seems that some people are very happy tethering the N810 to a mobile phone while others would rather have an all-in-one long-range wireless access (I think I misused the WAN term) device. I'm genuinely interested to hear reasons on both sides, and even from the apathetic bunch in the middle! :p

}:^)~
YARR!

Corrupt Wimax Edition

sachin007

2008-08-03, 18:53

PS: I am interested in making an objective Wiki page about this subject with all the pros and cons outlined. The idea is to devide in 3 parts: 1) small changes (e.g. a bug or feature previously in a NIT) 2) big changes (ie. things Nokia would use in a marketing announcement) 3) research / expensive changes (like e.g. solar power, totally different hardware platform, and so on). What more should I keep in mind before I start?

You may want to take a look at this which i compiled a while ago.

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=173318#post173318

codeMonkey

2008-08-03, 19:26

What I'd love to see in a N910 would be a keyboard as in the good old Psion 5Mx PDAs, plus a bit more memory and general horsepower.

I have an n800 and bluetooth kb that works well for me - the n810 was announced a few weeks after I bought - I'll probably wait until the next version (n900 or whatever) before I upgrade.

The old Psion Series 5 keyboard, ahh, I loved that thing :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/2005-04-16_Psion_Serie_5mx_PRO_24MB_beschn_unscharf_scharf .JPG/200px-2005-04-16_Psion_Serie_5mx_PRO_24MB_beschn_unscharf_scharf .JPG

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 08:38

There should be a business quality "E820" too, because not everyone wants a slider or want to take a phone to connect to Internet on the way:

- form factor: like E61

I mostly agree with this, with the following caveats:

1) base it on the E71, not the E61/E62/E61i. For one, the joystick on the E61 and E62 sucks. For two, the E61i uses the proprietary media connector for data and headset. The E71 fixes all of these issues, and has a really nice form factor (outstanding keyboard when compared to those phones, or the N810). The screen is a little on the small side, but I'm ok with that. Maemo on the smaller screen would be preferable to me over S60 on that device.

2) Quadband GSM, Quadband UMTS (ie. add T-Mobile USA 3G stupport), and UMA are musts, IMO.

3) The _one_ weakness of the E71 is ... poor reception strength. Predictably 2 bars worse than the E61i or E62 (both of which I own, and I just got done evaluating the E71 for womworld). Whatever they come up with needs to have outstanding signal capability. IMO, the wired headset jack should be able to use the wire as an antenna (just like some nokia phones use the wire for FM radio reception). If that's going to require a thicker cable for handling the power pumped into it for transmission, go ahead. But do SOMETHING.

Really, what I want is a Maemo device that has a built in WWAN (that's actually useful, thus ruling out WiMAX), can do direct voice calls, SMS/MMS, and data. Ideally, it would support voice calls using any of: a cellular network, SIP, UMA, Skype, and Gizmo (the E61/62/61i/71 already do the first two, and you can get a Skype addon (iSkoot), but I'd prefer the Maemo client I think).

If I were king, there would be a Nokia Maemo Phone category that have 2 sets of options:

A) form factor (E71, E66, E90)
B) WWAN network (GSM/UMTS, WiMAX, maybe CDMA/EVDO, eventually LTE)

And if I really got my way, I'd get an E90 based Maemo phone, with dual GSM cards built in, so you could direct different traffic to different providers (or two different plans with the same provider, maybe). And it would include clients for UMA, SIP, Skype, Gizmo, and Vonage.

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 08:39

Get the N96. Has all this and more (except wimax).

And the Qwerty keyboard.

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 08:53

Why can't the techy guy just use a laptop like everybody else? cripes the new HP Pavilion tablet would be a much better choice for a techie guy in a boardroom, than an Nseries tablet. Would probably impress people more, too.

Laptops are too F'n HUGE. The biggest device I ever want to carry again is a Samsung Q1. Anything bigger or heavier than that is dead weight. I've switched to riding public transportation to work (I'm saving $250/mo by doing so). I don't want to whip out of freakin' laptop so that I read Livejournal, this site, chat on Yahoo/AOL/IRC, and read my mail and RSS feeds. When I'm on the train or express bus, I want to uses something like... an N810 or Q1 (if only the Q1 had a native ubuntu port; though ubuntu mobile is almost ready for prime time, I hear).

Frankly, 11"+ laptops are dinosaurs. If you need a bigger screen than a NIT/MID/UMPC/netbook, use a desktop or get glasses. If you need to be mobile, your laptop is a boat anchor, pick something else.

And, really, "techie guy in a boardroom"??? techie guys don't go into boardrooms. By that time, they're no longer techie guys. They're pointy-haired guys. (and, really, I couldn't give a crap what's vogue for the board room; I go into senior management meetings with my N810, and I have yet to have a problem)

Last ... the link you provide shows a device with Windows ... are you on the right web site? hawking Windows to Maemo users? really? Perhaps you'd like to suggest a device that comes with a real OS?

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 08:57

We also buy them as leisure devices, not productivity tools.

Speak for yourself. I bought mine to do work. And I've been using it to do work. I use it to take notes in meetings (sometimes using my iGo keyboard). I use it to access my servers while away from my desks.

I do _also_ use it for some leisure activities (checking IMDB while watching movies, IM'ing from my couch, RSS/email on the train/bus, etc; all things that I wouldn't do with a laptop because it would be too cumbersome).

But to suggest that these devices are only bought for leisures is to show your ignorance of your audience. A fatal mistake in any endeavor.

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 09:04

I'm not going to argue beyond this point, but... the fact that an internet tablet does everything YOU need a laptop to do, doesn't make them 'laptops'. The reality of the situation is that they can't perform most of what business people actually use laptops for. To argue otherwise is ... just silly.

and to argue that "what business people [need]" somehow defines what is or isn't a laptop is the tail wagging the dog (or a poor straw-man argument). Not every laptop is for business use. Not ever laptop needs to be for business use.

NITs don't have to satisfy boardroom pointy-hairs in order to be laptop replacements. They simply have to satisfy all of the mobile general purpose computing needs of some segment of the market. And in order to be successful, that market segment merely has to be big enough to support itself.

Any argument about "it's not a laptop because it can't do powerpoint presentations in a boardroom" is specious at best.

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 09:13

3,4) the nit is supposed to pair up with a phone, not replace it...

Then why is there a WiMAX version?

If this mantra (that WWAN connectivity is supposed to come from a companion device) was so true, then Nokia would have released a WiMAX router, like the CradlePoint Personal Hotspot or something, instead of a WiMAX edition of the NIT. And THAT would have been where the WiMAX connectivity for the NIT came from.

Of course, there's the third option: Nokia wasn't thinking coherently when they entered into the WiMAX deal, and so the "NIT is supposed to pair up with [another device]" mantra isn't true, but they're also not going to follow the WiMAX edition to its logical conclusion (a GSM/UMTS edition). Or perhaps they were told from above to do the WiMAX edition, but the end result is the same: no such mantra governs the product group.

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 09:19

I've always been a fan of "all-in-one" solutions but - the last thing I'd like to do is to carry the tablet as my phone.

There's nothing about "GSM/UMTS radio in the tablet" that implies that it will be your phone, actually.

Several MIDs are saying they'll have HSPA modems built in. That doesn't make them phones. Certainly, if the hardware is complete (has the interfaces necessary for making calls, sending/receiving SMS/MMS messages, etc.), then the difference is a matter of software... but, these devices aren't saying they'll be phone replacements. They, like the N810 WiMAX Edition, merely package their WWAN inside the device.

Which is what the next generation NIT should do. It would be nice if it ALSO could handle voice and SMS/MMS ... but at the very least it should be able to do 3G data.

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 09:26

THINGS I DON'T WANT TO SEE:
Cell phone radio (I would prefer to have an external Bluetooth phone or USB modem device to do wireless networking so that I'm not tethered to a particular service)

a) you mean like on the WiMAX edition? The ship has already sailed, folks. Having a built-in WWAN radio is already a feature of the NIT family. The question now is not "whither WWAN radio", but "which WWAN radio". And GSM/UMTS is still, by far, the best choice.

b) with a GSM/UMTS radio, as long as they make it multi-band (not like the E71 where they've got 3 versions, and will need a 4th if they want to support T-Mobile, but a single version with support for all 4 UMTS variants) ... then you're not tied to a particular service. If it's unlocked, you can use it on any available carrier. In the USA, for example, you could pick between AT&T and T-Mobile.

(though, your argument certainly points out a mistake in Nokia having chosen WiMAX as its WWAN choice ... I don't know of any market where you've got a choice of WiMAX providers. It's either 0 or 1.)

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 09:30

Thanks konttori...

The N810w certainly is that device... I'm just wondering how many people actually *want* a device like this.

A device _like_ it? Yes.

That device specifically? No.

Why? Because WiMAX is like betting on the 3 legged horse.

GSM is much more widely deployed. If they had released a GSM version at the same time as the WiMAX version, or even released it NOW ... it would have a much wider customer base. It's all but a certainty that it would be doing much better than the WiMAX version is doing right now.

How many of the MIDs have announced WiMAX support?
How many of the MIDs have announced HSPA support?

speculatrix

2008-08-04, 09:32

Then why is there a WiMAX version? If this mantra (that WWAN connectivity is supposed to come from a companion device) was so true, then Nokia would have released a WiMAX router

Nokia sell phones mainly through mobile carriers/operators, ATT, T-Mobile, O2 etc, and their strategy has been to promote symbian/series 60 and the carriers have invested in tech support and customised firmware. Nokia have not (AFAICT) produced an S60 phone with a wimax module, therefore an N810w is not a threat.

The carriers like devices they can control, many don't even like wifi as it allows user to bypass buying data service. If the tablets were unlocked gsm/gprs/edge/3g/hspa devices and could roam freely, use wifi to make skype and sip/voip calls, and both the carriers and the entrenched mobile division of Nokia would be pretty hacked off.

On the other side of the wall, Wimax is dominated by non mobile phone operators who don't seem to be operating the subsidised handset/terminal business model, therefore Nokia can't upset them by releasing an open/unlocked device!

As far as I can tell, the internet tablet division is a very small part of Nokia, almost a skunk-works project, designed to let Nokia partake in OSS communities and learn as much as possible from them, but their major focus is remaining on 3G (not sure how LTE features in Nokia's plans).

speculatrix

2008-08-04, 09:36

(though, your argument certainly points out a mistake in Nokia having chosen WiMAX as its WWAN choice ... I don't know of any market where you've got a choice of WiMAX providers. It's either 0 or 1.)

in the UK there are no operators with licenses for wimax at all yet, although there are so small-scale trials, and there will be bandwidth auctions in the next month! Some information here: http://www.wimax.co.uk/

I am hoping wimax will come to my home town, Cambridge (the real one on England) sooner than later, seeing how there's a big technical community here, in which case I'll buy an N810w, otherwise I'm holding my n800 to see how things pan out.

--edit--
damn, looks like T-mobile are trying to put a spanner in the works:
http://www.wimaxday.net/site/2008/05/14/possible-delays-for-uk-25-ghz-auction/

--edit2--
ofcom, the UK gov't agency who manage bandwith here: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2008/04/nr_20080404

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 09:51

If Nokia isn't going to make a GSM/UMTS version of the NIT (either N810, or N820/N900) then what I would want to see instead is a companion device (preferably directly from Nokia) that does the following:

0) no direct user interface (ie. comparable to the CradlePoint routers)

1) built in GSM/UMTS radio with support for all 4 UMTS variants (it can be 4 editions, but I would prefer 1 edition with support for all 4 variants). That 4th variant being T-Mobile USA. Should do GPRS, EDGE, and HSPA. (and I would prefer it to have 2 SIM cards, so you can direct different traffic to different accounts, but that's just me)

2) light weight built in SIP server so that you can access the cellular voice network using any SIP client. (other Nokia phones which have SIP capability, or a NIT, or a Wifi Phone, etc.)

3) light weight built in Jabber server so that you can access the SMS/MMS capabilities of the device from any Jabber client (would automatically translate messages into SMS or MMS, depending on the message content).

4) Wifi access point, with lots of nice encryption/auth variants, and support for standard VPN software (so that you can use the device itself as your VPN gateway, and not have to worry about installing VPN software on the NIT).

5) possibly a CDMA variant, a WiMAX variant, and eventually an LTE variant.

6) Lots of options for battery sizes. Slim for compact carrying, thick/huge for high endurance but probably requiring a backpack, etc. And accessories for external batteries.

7) External antenna support, and some ability to control the power setting of the antenna, for those situations where you really need better reception.

8) the base unit shouldn't be much bigger than the CradlePoint PHS. The reason I don't just want an CradlePoint is: it doesn't do most of the above, certainly not the SIP/Jabber server, nor GPRS/EDGE, nor do they have a recommended external battery back, nor expanded battery options. But that's still the right size range for the base unit (with slim battery and no external antenna).

Then the "no radio" camp is happy because you don't need a WWAN radio in the NIT ... and those of us who don't want to _use_ two devices are also happy (we still have to _carry_ two devices, but we only have to directly touch the NIT ... I think that'd be an ok compromise).

I'd buy that device the day it came out with T-Mobile-USA 3G support. I could use it with my N810, my E61i's SIP capability*, and even with a Samsung Q1 if I ever buy one (if a usable version of ubuntu is ever ready for it).

(* and with the E71 if I decide to upgrade)

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 09:54

The carriers like devices they can control, many don't even like wifi as it allows user to bypass buying data service. If the tablets were unlocked gsm/gprs/edge/3g/hspa devices and could roam freely, use wifi to make skype and sip/voip calls, and both the carriers (...) would be pretty hacked off.

This argument would imply that the MIDs wont be able to find a service provider... Though, as we've already seen with both Nokia phones, and other devices, GSM devices don't really need to be approved by the carrier. I use a Nokia E61i on T-Mobile-USA. T-Mobile-USA has never supported nor sold that phone. Nokia sold it in a way that it can be easily used with T-Mobile-USA (has all of the settings ready to be used, just select them), and T-Mobile-USA doesn't care.

speculatrix

2008-08-04, 10:09

4) Wifi access point, with lots of nice encryption/auth variants, and support for standard VPN software (so that

I agree that full hostap mode would be really great; it'd also enable kismet, aircrack-ng and packet injection support?

Capt'n Corrupt

2008-08-04, 12:15

Do you know what I would like to see on the N900? BLENDER 3D!!!! Hell, I would like to see this on the current N8xx's.

Now I know what you're thinking, and you'd be kinda right. Being a 3D suite, the ability to model/render at comfortable speeds requires pretty large hardware. However there are a bunch of views in blender that require less horse-power, as well as the ability to hide parts of the model/environment for greater responsiveness and easier editing (less obstructions).

I remember doing renderings using blender on a Pentium 200Mhz (Non mmx) laptop with 64M of ram and a 4G HD. It was a bit slow, but it was still extremely useful for composing 3D models or parts of models which would then be used/reassembled on a more powerful computer. And all of this was WITHOUT 3D acceleration.

I know the tablets are capable of running this app.

This would certainly be a news worthy accomplishment and bring a LOT of attention to the tablets. To know that the tablets could play a role (even a small one) in the production of something similar to Toy Story, Finding Nemo, or Shrek, is an amazing bragging right.

You can check out the blender 3D rendering suite at http://blender3d.org/features-gallery/
You can check out an open source movie developed with blender and open source tools at http://www.bigbuckbunny.org/

Won't some master of machine-speak, sultan of scripts, saviour of souls come to our aide and compile this program for the tablet? Qwerty12, I'm looking in your direction ;).

After the port, we can blitz Gizmodo/Engadget or other gadget news blogs of the accomplishment and sing praises of the porter. They ran the Win 3.1 port as a story, so this one is sure to be picked up.

I don't have a tablet (yet), but I'm extremely close to installing scratchbox and starting to port/develop. Hmm... Not a bad idea...

}:^)~
YARR!

f(Capt'n)=Corrupt

speculatrix

2008-08-04, 12:26

Do you know what I would like to see on the N900? BLENDER 3D

why not ask someone to port Sun's Looking Glass 3D gui?
http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/

Benson

2008-08-04, 16:00

Here's an easy question. How many people would like to see a wide-area-network capable N900? This is assuming that there's plenty of affordable coverage. Why? Why not?

And no, it doesn't have to be GSM. :)

I for one think it would be amazing; of course I don't have a cell phone. This is kinda what the N810w promises, but as of yet is iffy if it actually will be delivered.

For some values of "plenty" and "affordable", yeah! For other values, not so much...

On campus, I've got WiFi; as a consequence, though I've had an N800 for over a half year, and been interested in getting a tethering-capable data-plan for about that long, I still haven't gotten one; I don't need it that bad. But I'm still looking, and would be even happier with a WWAN N810W, if it came at a reasonably similar price point. (If it's a little less expensive, because of no voice calls, and a little more expensive, because it's 4g instead of 3g, with theoretically better bandwidth, etc., it's conceivable it could be comparable. I expect it'll be more, though.)

danramos

2008-08-04, 17:11

Here's an easy question. How many people would like to see a wide-area-network capable N900? This is assuming that there's plenty of affordable coverage. Why? Why not?

And no, it doesn't have to be GSM. :)

I for one think it would be amazing; of course I don't have a cell phone. This is kinda what the N810w promises, but as of yet is iffy if it actually will be delivered.

}:^)~
YARR!

Capt'n 'crunch' Corrupt

Personally, I'd prefer the device DOESN'T have a wide area radio like WiMAX and I'd prefer to have that as a feature of my cell phone (so I can tether to it like a modem) or as a feature of a seperate device (the way GPS is for the N800).

I only say this because if you made it part of the unit, then you pay for extra weight and technology that marries that unit to a particular kind of wide area network that your favorite carrier may not support and will eventually become obsoleted down the road as everything eventually does.

I would prefer that Nokia and other phone makers concentrate next-gen data on phones and make it so that they can "modem" the data through that wireless phone device so that ANYTHING (770, N800, N810, N900, laptops, etc.) with Bluetooth can just hook up.. even old systems as long as they talk Bluetooth.

bobloadmire

2008-08-04, 17:20

it like it to be Atom or Nano based

sjgadsby

2008-08-04, 17:33

it like it to be Atom or Nano based

Whatever for?

danramos

2008-08-04, 17:40

Whatever for?

Maybe for compatibility with x86 binaries?

Personally, I couldn't care either way but the one thing *I* would want an Atom CPU in there for is the specs (speed and cache). The ARM is fine, though.. but the CPU speed NEEDS to be increased in whatever they do with this new unit. I mean.. MUCH more speed. 400MHz is so 20th century.

tso

2008-08-04, 17:44

hz is a marketing meme...

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-04, 17:45

Whatever for?

Clearly because he has tons of money burning a hole in his pocket, and has severe addiction issues with mobile devices so he wants the battery life to be as short as possible.

Any other explanation would simply be ridiculous.

sjgadsby

2008-08-04, 17:47

The ARM is fine, though.. but the CPU speed NEEDS to be increased in whatever they do with this new unit.

The OMAP 3440--the most likely choice to power the next "step" Internet Tablet--has been discussed in this very thread numerous times and will fulfill the need you've stated.

EDIT: As GeneralAntilles kindly points out below, the OMAP 3430 is the beasty in question, not the 3440.

allnameswereout

2008-08-04, 17:50

Personally, I'd prefer the device DOESN'T have a wide area radio like WiMAX and I'd prefer to have that as a feature of my cell phone (so I can tether to it like a modem) or as a feature of a seperate device (the way GPS is for the N800).

I only say this because if you made it part of the unit, then you pay for extra weight and technology that marries that unit to a particular kind of wide area network that your favorite carrier may not support and will eventually become obsoleted down the road as everything eventually does.

I would prefer that Nokia and other phone makers concentrate next-gen data on phones and make it so that they can "modem" the data through that wireless phone device so that ANYTHING (770, N800, N810, N900, laptops, etc.) with Bluetooth can just hook up.. even old systems as long as they talk Bluetooth.

Yes, you pay for the extra weight & technology, but it sin't very heavy now, is it?

Following your argument lets not include WiFi either. Lets not include GPS either. Lets keep all kind of other devices in the pocket to tether with BlueTooth. Oh wait, BlueTooth was left out as well. I don't want a GSM, and a GPS, and a DAP, and a PDA. I want one device which is able to do all of that well with good hardware & user-friendly software (probably would cost 1000 EUR or so), and able to tether with a _laptop_ for the big work.

Besides, GSM sucks. VoIP is the New World, and dead to GSM telcos who sell contracts for ridiculous prices. You only need one wide area hardware interface + data plan to be 24/7, and it has to be widely available. Currently that is 3G. In the future perhaps 4G (e.g. WiMAX).

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-04, 17:51

The OMAP 3440--the most likely choice to power the next "step" Internet Tablet--has been discussed in this very thread numerous times and will fulfill the need you've stated.

The OMAP3430, actually. The OMAP3440 is 800MHz (versus the OMAP3430's 600MHz) and is quite a bit more power-hungry than the OMAP3430, which would result in severely reduced battery life for devices in the tablet's form-factor. The OMAP3440 is really a UMPC chip.

Note: for anybody wondering, OMAP3 is significantly more powerful than OMAP2, so a direct megahertz-to-megahertz comparison (i.e., the OMAP2420's 400MHz versus the OMAP3430's 600MHz) doesn't tell the whole story.

sjgadsby

2008-08-04, 17:54

The OMAP3430, actually.

Nuts. Thanks. I never should have trusted my memory for numbers. Squirrelly little things they are.

danramos

2008-08-04, 17:55

hz is a marketing meme...

I disagree with that statement as it stands, but it's accurate in that the frequency isn't a true indication of resulting speeds. Just the same, the intention here is to satisfy the need for a system that can perform faster than what we're seeing now and 400MHz on the ARM in the N8x0 series are appearing to perform at roughly about what you'd expect for 400MHz.. so I'd like to see that speed increase enough to be able to process things in realtime a little better (video/audio processing on the current processor are a bit woeful... but the DSP might help with this. Question: is the DSP fully integrated to all the video, audio, memory and CPU systems and does everyone have adequate information to be able to take full advantage? I'm asking since I don't know--but if I'm not mistaken it's a "no" all-around thanks to a lot of the closed-source mentality from the hardware end of things.)

allnameswereout

2008-08-04, 17:55

You may want to take a look at this which i compiled a while ago.

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=173318#post173318

Thanks for the link!! It is a start, but it doesn't include any numbers of how often something was proposed or who proposed, or any pros/cons. Do you still have the data you used to compile your list?

sjgadsby

2008-08-04, 17:59

Do you still have the data you used to compile your list?

I do believe you're posting in it.

danramos

2008-08-04, 17:59

The OMAP3430, actually. The OMAP3440 is 800MHz (versus the OMAP3430's 600MHz) and is quite a bit more power-hungry than the OMAP3430, which would result in severely reduced battery life for devices in the tablet's form-factor. The OMAP3440 is really a UMPC chip.

Note: for anybody wondering, OMAP3 is significantly more powerful than OMAP2, so a direct megahertz-to-megahertz comparison (i.e., the OMAP2420's 400MHz versus the OMAP3430's 600MHz) doesn't tell the whole story.

Ohho... OMAP3430 would be VERY good. I'm satisfied with that. :) (Agreed on the MHz discussion.. but it's still relevant on some level--I don't see anynoe discussing bogomips or any other measurement.. although maybe we should).

bobloadmire

2008-08-04, 17:59

Whatever for?

speed, X86
going from 400mhz, to 1.6ghz would be incredible

danramos

2008-08-04, 18:00

speed, X86
going from 400mhz, to 1.6ghz would be incredible

HAH! I called it. ;)

bobloadmire

2008-08-04, 18:02

HAH! I called it. ;)

you're not a big fan of speed?

Its not like the atom would kill the battery life. 0.65 watts? Other tablets have it.
and x86 would rock, you could put vista or OS X on there if you wanted.

although probably wouldn't want to.

penguinbait

2008-08-04, 18:04

Should have 1024x600 and more RAM and be available by Thanksgiving.

Faster CPU would be a bonus too

sjgadsby

2008-08-04, 18:06

Its not like the atom would kill the battery life. 0.65 watts? Other tablets have it.

With battery life equal to the Internet Tablets?

EDIT: Ah, you slipped the "0.65 watts" in there. Please see this previous discussion on Atom vs OMAP power consumption (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=164434#post164434).

bobloadmire

2008-08-04, 18:10

With battery life equal to the Internet Tablets?

EDIT: Ah, you slipped the "0.65 watts" in there. Please see this previous discussion on Atom vs OMAP power consumption (http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=164434#post164434).

do the atoms not suspened like the OMAP processors do?

danramos

2008-08-04, 18:11

you're not a big fan of speed?

Its not like the atom would kill the battery life. 0.65 watts? Other tablets have it.
and x86 would rock, you could put vista or OS X on there if you wanted.

although probably wouldn't want to.

No no.. I'm saying that I knew that's what you had intended. ("I called it!" as in betting, where you guessed the outcome correctly.)

Although, I agree with your sentiment for speed, and I wouldn't MIND an Atom processor, I'm ambivalent on what TYPE of processor is in there. I'm more concerned right now with just bumping up the speed until it's at a sweet spot of being JUST fast enough to do what I need. Laptops and desktop PC's passed that point for me years ago and the N800 is pretty good.. but it just needs a slight kick up in speed and cache on the processor. The fact that it's an ARM helps because it's a very power efficient RISC processor and performs very fast despite what the MHz label tells you.

Personally, I think I'd rather continue to use ARM processors but I hurt for speed enough to be open to a change if it's necessary.

As for OS X and Vista.. no. I don't want that. Not at all. Oh God, no. :)

bobloadmire

2008-08-04, 18:12

well acording to wikipedia the 800mhz atom is .65 watts/ I searched that page and everyone assumed it was 2.5 watts which is a load more.

sjgadsby

2008-08-04, 18:17

do the atoms not suspened like the OMAP processors do?

Atom isn't a system on a chip as OMAP is. Even if the Atom processor can achieve low power draw, all the other chips necessary for Atom to do anything push the power consumption of an Atom-based tablet well higher than an OMAP-based one.

danramos

2008-08-04, 18:21

Atom isn't a system on a chip as OMAP is. Even if the Atom processor can achieve low power draw, all the other chips necessary for Atom to do anything push the power consumption of an Atom-based tablet well higher than an OMAP-based one.

Now that I think about it, didn't someone successfully make a whole Commodore 64-on-a-chip? How about one of those in the tablet? ;) Joking. Don't hurt me. Please--not the face!

sjgadsby

2008-08-04, 18:29

...didn't someone successfully make a whole Commodore 64-on-a-chip?

Yes, but the people who complain on here that keeping an N800/N810 in a pants pocket results in an unsightly bulge are really going to be unhappy with those (http://pepm.bluedomino.com/c64dtv/).

bobloadmire

2008-08-04, 18:33

i think im just tired of not being able to play a standard divx file smoothly with mplayer or canola.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-04, 18:50

i think im just tired of not being able to play a standard divx file smoothly with mplayer or canola.

Well, you're in luck! The OMAP3430 can handle decoding up to 720p.

danramos

2008-08-04, 18:52

Well, you're in luck! The OMAP3430 can handle decoding up to 720p.

Yeah, that's actually a big deal to me too. I would LIKE to be able to take the stuff from off of my NAS where the Neuros OSD drops stuff off and simply copy and play it on the go (or simply play it over the network) without skipping and jerking and tearing and so on. :)

Benson

2008-08-04, 19:27

For the Atom debate: remember that an Atom is singularly poor in performance per clock cycle; trimming the power consumption of an x86 isn't a free lunch, so you've got to account for varying performance/MHz ratios on both architectures. And x86 binary compatibility get's very little we can't have now; Debian has FF (make that IceWeasel) and OOo builds, so Skype with video is about the only popular x86-only app I can think of. Wine, too, on second thought, but still...

Unless you want to run a closed OS (Windows or OSX), the atom looks to me like a bad idea in general, and a very bad idea in an N8x0-class device.

Ohho... OMAP3430 would be VERY good. I'm satisfied with that. :) (Agreed on the MHz discussion.. but it's still relevant on some level--I don't see anynoe discussing bogomips or any other measurement.. although maybe we should).

Not bogomips, NO!... Other performance metrics, perhaps, but bogomips is not a useful measurement for anything but calibrating a certain delay loop; that's why it's calculated at all. In a given processor family, it's directly proportional to clock speed, so it's also used as a surrogate for clock speed, but never use it for comparing machines of different processor types. ;) (And yes, other (real) benchmarks aren't bad, but then we'll just descend to arguing the merits of various benchmarks... they're not the automatic infusion of objectivity we might wish for.)

danramos

2008-08-04, 19:41

...x86 binary compatibility get's very little we can't have now...Wine, too, on second thought, but still...

My thoughts exactly.. hence my ambivalence to processor type--I just advantages of running Linux, not necessarily compatibility with other architectures. Even WINE seems kind of pointless--I'm not sure there's a lot of need for that on a tablet without a mouse and a keyboard. I've got better things to do than run Windows apps on my tablet. :)

Not bogomips, NO!...
...And yes, other (real) benchmarks aren't bad, but then we'll just descend to arguing the merits of various benchmarks... they're not the automatic infusion of objectivity we might wish for.)

True... well said. :)

tso

2008-08-04, 19:58

Mara

2008-08-04, 20:06

Talking about Atom and possibility to load Vista on upcoming MID products... I'd say no thanks! Even "Blazing fast" Atom at 1.6GHz is pathetically slow, even when compared to bottom of the barrel desktop CPU solutions:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Intel-Atom-Efficient,1981-11.html

Better stick with tablet optimized OS'es... :rolleyes:

johnkzin

2008-08-04, 20:14

one thing about slapping a existing os on a tablet, the interface is rarely built for it...

just look at the issues one have with a non-hildonized port of a gtk app for example?

now consider using a desktop windows app on a small screen. i dont know about anyone else, but it gives me the creeps, and im ok with using a stylus...

In general, I agree: anyone who thinks that they'll get their hearts desire by increasing the resolution and having some form of binary compatibility, so they can run their favorite desktop app, is going to be in for a huge disappointment.

But ... the other side of the coin is: that level of discomfort is a personal issue, and not a universal one. And other needs often offset that discomfort (for example, a very specific personal or business need might make the discomfort completely moot). If it can be done for reasonable (economic, mobility, power) cost, binary compatibility should be consideration.

It will be interesting, to me, to see what kinds of heat/power/cost/size/weight the MID designs end up with, being based around the Atom (or for the Via Nano, for the ones that go in that direction). If they end up being comparable to the NIT on those levels, then it becomes harder for the NIT to say "it wont work to go in that direction". But until we see them out in the field, it's all guess work.

allnameswereout

2008-08-05, 00:03

Discomfort isn't personal anymore if a statistically significant group experiences the same feeling. While not universal, most people feel uncomfortable with a command line prompt. This doesn't mean a command line prompt is uncomfortable, nor comfortable. All it means is that a statistically relevant percentage of the group feel uncomfortable with the command line prompt; in such case, calling this 'personal issue' is simply belittling the problem, not taking the statistically relevant group of people seriously. Calling this 'universal' would imply we (almost) all agree (minus a statistically irrelevant number of individuals). That isn't the case either.

This is also exactly why I wanted to know the context of the ideas. I want to know how many persons suggest what, and their pros/cons. But perhaps the task is quite large.

allnameswereout

2008-08-05, 00:18

:pMy thoughts exactly.. hence my ambivalence to processor type--I just advantages of running Linux, not necessarily compatibility with other architectures. Even WINE seems kind of pointless--I'm not sure there's a lot of need for that on a tablet without a mouse and a keyboard. I've got better things to do than run Windows apps on my tablet. :)

True... well said. :)

Frankly, I believe Crossover for Linux or WINE is quite an advantage on a x86 nettop / mini laptop because only the mere possibility of being able to use it to run a niche application only available closed source on Windows, is a sigh of relief. If I look back, I can think of countless small applications I'd love to have used on a NIT/MID or perhaps mini-laptop.

There are hardware implementations of the SIDchip, but AFAIK not small, embedded ones requiring no interface.

tso

2008-08-05, 00:27

derekp

2008-08-05, 01:48

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet...
Bring back the flip cover (detachable), but also put an e-ink display on the cover. Then tie the primary screen and the flip cover together in X so that they can either both display the same image, or addressed separately. Also, put the e-ink display on both sides of the flip, so that you can have it be useful both opened and closed.

GeneralAntilles

2008-08-05, 02:57

derekp

2008-08-05, 16:20

Good lord. Did you miss the realistically in the topic title?

E-ink isn't realistic? There's several devices shipping now that have e-ink (Amazon Kindle, that Sony ebook reader, etc). Now e-ink isn't usable as a primary display for most applications due to slow refresh, but it could make a fine secondary display, and it can be made thin enough to be embedded into a protective flip cover.

Except for the price, but that should be coming down soon. So in that case, it might need to wait for the n950.

Wes Doobner

2008-08-05, 17:10

and to argue that "what business people [need]" somehow defines what is or isn't a laptop is the tail wagging the dog (or a poor straw-man argument). Not every laptop is for business use. Not ever laptop needs to be for business use.

NITs don't have to satisfy boardroom pointy-hairs in order to be laptop replacements. They simply have to satisfy all of the mobile general purpose computing needs of some segment of the market. And in order to be successful, that market segment merely has to be big enough to support itself.

Any argument about "it's not a laptop because it can't do powerpoint presentations in a boardroom" is specious at best.

Uhh, businesses buy millions of 'laptops' for their employees each year. Sorry, they aren't buying tablets and sorry, but 9 of the 10 apps I use daily simply cannot be made to work on a tablet; nor would I expect my employees to stare at a 4" screen all day. I'd have no employees left because they would all leave, or they would all be on disbility ffrom the migraines they would get from staring at a 4" screen for 6 hours per day.

Wes Doobner

2008-08-05, 17:12

Laptops are too F'n HUGE. The biggest device I ever want to carry again is a Samsung Q1. Anything bigger or heavier than that is dead weight. I've switched to riding public transportation to work (I'm saving $250/mo by doing so). I don't want to whip out of freakin' laptop so that I read Livejournal, this site, chat on Yahoo/AOL/IRC, and read my mail and RSS feeds. When I'm on the train or express bus, I want to uses something like... an N810 or Q1 (if only the Q1 had a native ubuntu port; though ubuntu mobile is almost ready for prime time, I hear).

Frankly, 11"+ laptops are dinosaurs. If you need a bigger screen than a NIT/MID/UMPC/netbook, use a desktop or get glasses. If you need to be mobile, your laptop is a boat anchor, pick something else.

And, really, "techie guy in a boardroom"??? techie guys don't go into boardrooms. By that time, they're no longer techie guys. They're pointy-haired guys. (and, really, I couldn't give a crap what's vogue for the board room; I go into senior management meetings with my N810, and I have yet to have a problem)

Last ... the link you provide shows a device with Windows ... are you on the right web site? hawking Windows to Maemo users? really? Perhaps you'd like to suggest a device that comes with a real OS?

Hmmm. Let's see.. it wasn't "me" that mentioned a tech guy in the boardroom... and I am not "hawking" anything.

Er, never mind. You obviously have this all figured out so what's the point.

Benson

2008-08-05, 17:19

johnkzin

2008-08-05, 17:26

Uhh, businesses buy millions of 'laptops' for their employees each year. Sorry, they aren't buying tablets and sorry, but 9 of the 10 apps I use daily simply cannot be made to work on a tablet; nor would I expect my employees to stare at a 4" screen all day. I'd have no employees left because they would all leave, or they would all be on disbility ffrom the migraines they would get from staring at a 4" screen for 6 hours per day.

None of which changes what I said:

Business customers do not define what is or isn't a laptop. Nor even what is or isn't a useful laptop. Nor even what is or isn't a successful portable computing gadget.

They are one segment of the market. Even if they're the largest segment of the market, they're still just one segment of the market. There are other market segments, which are profitable, and have no need to address the desires of the business customer market segment.

It's possible to have quite successful laptop products that aren't aimed at business customers at all. First generation iBook. iPod. iPod Touch. All successful portable computing gadgets that aren't/weren't focused on the business market (you could even put the first gen iPhone into this category, as many business gadget pundits have complained loudly that it didn't have features necessary to the business market).

And, by the way, we're talking about the N800, N810, and N900. Notice that they're N series devices, and not E series devices. Tell me that they NEED to be satisfying to the business market when there's a NIT that's an E series device.

newbiew/Qs

2008-08-05, 17:27

Well, I think the most important thing Nokia needs to do, if it plans to keep producing the Internet tablet, is lower the price point. New, lower-priced, Atom-based UMPCs that very much resemble the N810 are coming out. The AIGO MID, meant for the Asian market, went on sale in Hong Kong this week for slightly under $700 USD and is already available on Ebay for $759. The size is only slightly larger than the N810, but there's a lot more power under the hood; it's got an external antenna port to connect a GPS antenna. The Gigabyte, another Atom-based UMPC that resembles a slightly larger N810 is due out this year, too. Although these units are being released with variations of Linux, they're powerful enough to run about any flavor of desktop Linux. So, there's competition on steroids moving in to the block and I think it's essential that Nokia lower it's price point.

Benson

2008-08-05, 17:34

Well, there's no reason (I know) to suppose the N900 will come in at a higher price point than the N810 did, which still undercuts those handily, and it will be smaller and have comparable processing power. I don't see the "steroids" there; sure there's competition, but they hardly seem to be a big threat in my view. I wish they were better, but I just don't see the 1st-gen Atom devices as all that hot.

danramos

2008-08-05, 17:39

:p

Frankly, I believe Crossover for Linux or WINE is quite an advantage on a x86 nettop / mini laptop because only the mere possibility of being able to use it to run a niche application only available closed source on Windows, is a sigh of relief. If I look back, I can think of countless small applications I'd love to have used on a NIT/MID or perhaps mini-laptop.

There are hardware implementations of the SIDchip, but AFAIK not small, embedded ones requiring no interface.

True--it would be an advantage but it would mean either requiring an x86 processor--which would drain more power and provide less overall advantage of an OMAP system-on-a-chip design--or an x86 emulation layer which would REALLY be much slower and less advantageous for those emulated apps. I'd rather avoid it altogether myself but, like I'd said before, I can certainly understand the advantage you would want but it's a balance between battery life, cost and other details versus that one advantage of being able to run WINE. I'd probably lean more toward the OMAP.

E-ink isn't realistic? There's several devices shipping now that have e-ink (Amazon Kindle, that Sony ebook reader, etc). Now e-ink isn't usable as a primary display for most applications due to slow refresh, but it could make a fine secondary display, and it can be made thin enough to be embedded into a protective flip cover.

Except for the price, but that should be coming down soon. So in that case, it might need to wait for the n950.

I would not want that to come with the unit. Maybe if the unit had an expansion port to lock into or just some bare contacts that an optional (read: buy seperately) device like an e-ink case could touch or communicate with with you slip the N9x0 device into it? Maybe if they moved the USB port out from behind the kickstand and just used that for the case to click into? (I might be afraid of damaging the port if the case gets dropped with the N9x0 inside.)

Well, I think the most important thing Nokia needs to do, if it plans to keep producing the Internet tablet, is lower the price point. ... So, there's competition on steroids moving in to the block and I think it's essential that Nokia lower it's price point.

This goes to my point about the e-ink being optional. Plan for these upgrades and enhancements.. but leave them optional so that they don't make a useful thing too expensive. But make something awesome that kicks this system up a notch as an optional purchase to add on later so that we have time to save up for it after making that initial purchase. For that matter--it also increases the possibility of something being exploited like the 'geek port' on the old BeBox. Let users and third party manufacturers ALSO get involved in making upgrades and useful peripherals.

danramos

2008-08-05, 17:45

I would not want that to come with the unit. Maybe if the unit had an expansion port to lock into or just some bare contacts that an optional (read: buy seperately) device like an e-ink case could touch or communicate with with you slip the N9x0 device into it? Maybe if they moved the USB port out from behind the kickstand and just used that for the case to click into? (I might be afraid of damaging the port if the case gets dropped with the N9x0 inside.)

Now that I think about it... why not a really low power microwave radio signal to communicate with such a case (the way RFID does)--I'd almost guess the N8x0 series could probably already do that. hm. Bonus if the eink case has another battery (or maybe a place for AAA's) inside a panel which can help charge the N9x0 while it's inside its case and REALLY extend the time the unit can be used overall.

Just brainstorming that one--I'd have to weight that against the cons if it could realistically be designed.

johnkzin

2008-08-05, 17:48

I don't see the MID's being an initial threat, but I do see them getting better. And the one thing that I see setting them up as an eventual winner over the NITs, if they NITs don't resolve this, is that several of the MIDs have a plan for HSPA WWAN support.

The NITs will need some form of included WWAN that actually has a sizable market footprint. And probably soon (sooner than WiMAX will get them there). And, no, tethering doesn't count for this requirement.

newbiew/Qs

2008-08-05, 18:18

I do think Nokia's price point is too high, which they could get away with when they didn't have competition. I think the MIDs may drop in price slightly once they're marketed beyond Asia--say to around slightly under $600 USD. (For a UMPC, their introductory price point is very reasonable.) But given the fact that the MIDs' processors are more powerful and their specs more robust, I think their price point is going to make someone seriously interested in a Linux device think twice about plunking down almost $400 USD (or more) for a NIT when you get a MID for slightly more.

BenQ will be releasing its MID in Europe this year. Pricing hasn't been announced yet, but it will be interesting to see what price point they choose. Perhaps, release of a MID in it's home market will motivate Nokia to reduce the NIT to sub-$300 USD. I think that's about the price point they're going to have to adopt to compete with the MIDs, which have more powerful processors, more RAM and more internal storage.

Benson

2008-08-05, 19:50

Now that I think about it... why not a really low power microwave radio signal to communicate with such a case (the way RFID does)--I'd almost guess the N8x0 series could probably already do that. hm.
Ya mean like... Bluetooth? I'd almost guess so, too. ;) That's reasonably suitable, and could be done software-only on the tablet side. (I'm thinking BIP.) I'm not sure the gadget would be all that awesome, with current eink displays, but it's definitely plausible... even in a third-party sense on current tablets.

johnkzin

2008-08-05, 19:52

I'll believe that the MIDs are more powerful when we start to see benchmarks. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that there's nothing concrete to base such a claim upon. Comparing Hz between two different CPU architectures are like comparing apples and oranges.

Same for the other factors.

newbiew/Qs

2008-08-05, 22:52

johnkzin,

I would agree that it's always difficult to compare different processors. However, the MIDs are all slated to come with versions of Open Office, which we all know runs very slowly with Debian installed on the NIT. The Gigabye will actually rival the iPhone in that it will have 3G as well as WIFI and GPS. It's initial price point for release in the Taiwan market is $750 USD. Unlike the Aigo, it appears to be slated for broader release, at least to the European market and, possibly, North America.

I'm anxious to see hands on reviews as well as benchmarks. Here's a link to an article discussing pricing of the Gigabyte. http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/06/gigabyte-m528-mid-update-official-pricing-and-availability-info/

danramos

2008-08-05, 23:07

Ya mean like... Bluetooth? I'd almost guess so, too. ;) That's reasonably suitable, and could be done software-only on the tablet side. (I'm thinking BIP.) I'm not sure the gadget would be all that awesome, with current eink displays, but it's definitely plausible... even in a third-party sense on current tablets.

Exaaaaaactly. :) I think that'd be pretty neat, actually. It doesn't need to be particularly high resolution or colorful or anything. It would barely use power.

It could be a virtual screen Bluetooth device for things that show primarily static displays like clocks, omweather, calendar, countdown of Bush's remaining days in office, etc. :)

Remember, first and foremost, it'd be a hard case to slip the N8x0 into to protect it.. THEN it'd just be a cheap B&W eink display on the outside.

honzik

2008-08-06, 04:33

Brighter Display (eg.the PenTile display from http://www.clairvoyante.com/)
A2DP support.
More Memory.
A GPS chip that works reasonably well.
Accelerometers for use as an input device.
A faster response time on the touch screen.
A means of streaming windows media.
Skype with video conferencing capability.
IR capability.

allnameswereout

2008-08-06, 05:10

I come back from the comment of disliking all kind of add-ons as seperate from the NIT.

My opinion is: do something good, or don't do it. There are too many issues with the GPS chip in the N810. Therefore, either a correctly working internal GPS, or none at all. The same counts for e.g. 3G. If you have a device which doesn't have such chips internally, you allow the user to completely build their own device, but the disadvantage is that such all has to be carried with, and needs their own power source. This contributes to my preference of prefering a good implementation of the chipset. Yes, even if it'd increase the price a bit with 25 EUR. In the end, it is worth it for a lot of users. If I knew the GPS chipset in the N810 was as crappy as-is, I would have thought twice before I bought it. Now, I basically need a Tomtom (also given the lack of good navigation software for the NIT)

johnkzin

2008-08-06, 13:16

johnkzin,

I would agree that it's always difficult to compare different processors. However, the MIDs are all slated to come with versions of Open Office, which we all know runs very slowly with Debian installed on the NIT.

Right. But we don't know how crappily it will run on an Atom. As others have pointed out, the Atom cuts some corners for power consumption that may give it performance that is lower than similar Hz chips within the x86 family.

So... until we see Open Office "benchmarks" for the MIDs, we don't know if they'll actually be better at Open Office than the NIT.

The Gigabye will actually rival the iPhone in that it will have 3G as well as WIFI and GPS. It's initial price point for release in the Taiwan market is $750 USD. Unlike the Aigo, it appears to be slated for broader release, at least to the European market and, possibly, North America.

I'm anxious to see hands on reviews as well as benchmarks. Here's a link to an article discussing pricing of the Gigabyte. http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/06/gigabyte-m528-mid-update-official-pricing-and-availability-info/

I know about the Gigabyte M528. It's one of the MIDs I'm interested in :-)

One of the things I'm cautious about with it, though, is that the Wifi is SDIO based, and it's not clear if it has its own SD/SDIO slot, or if it uses the same SD slot that you use for storage... if it does, then that leaves me wondering how/if you'll be able to utilize both expanded storage and Wifi at the same time.

Then there's the battery life question.

And, last, there's the actual performance question.

All 3 of those things will determine whether or not its price will directly impact the N810/N900. If it uses 1 SD slot for Wifi and storage, has crappy battery life, and underwhelming performance ... then it could be priced at $400US, and I'd still consider the NIT to be a better buy.

On the otherhand, if it has separate SD slots for Wifi and storage, "good enough" battery (4.5 hours/day might actually work for me, depending on how long it takes to charge, how easy it is to use while charging*, and what kinds of external emergency battery chargers I can get), and decent performance compared to the NIT ... then its 3G and x86 compatibility might mean that I'd take it over a NIT even if it was $600.

But until we know those things for sure, with actual concrete use reviews, I'm not going to speculate about "these specs mean it's going to be a LOT more powerful than the NIT".

Specs : Real Performance :: Vaporware : Delivered Products

(* I don't consider the NIT to be very usable while plugged into ANYTHING, whether it's headphones, power, or USB devices, because they're located perfectly for interfering with 2 handed thumb typing. This makes it annoying to actually hold/use it while those things are plugged in. USB devices especially, because they require that the kickstand be open in order to access them ... if the Aigo/Gigabyte-M528 locates its plugs such that you can still fully utilize the device while charging/etc., then I'd consider that another win for the MID)

allnameswereout

2008-08-06, 18:07

There are SDIO cards which provide both storage and WiFi. I've seen them back in 2006, but my MID (Sharp Zaurus C1000) didn't support SDIO.

You can use the kickstand to keep your left hand inside, while using the right hand to type and use the stylus. It also has the advantage the device cannot be ripped out of your hands easily.

slha89

2008-08-06, 18:26

I get a 900 Series soon :) :) :)

... an EEE901 with 6h+ battery pack and can do/install what I want. I saw the 900 and I can life with that size.

But I don't give up N810 because of Carman. Then, I'm not in hurry with N900 and can wait the first price drop :)

johnkzin

2008-08-06, 19:56

There are SDIO cards which provide both storage and WiFi. I've seen them back in 2006, but my MID (Sharp Zaurus C1000) didn't support SDIO.

So, if I have a dozen SD cards, they all have to be Wifi+Storage cards?

And if I want to hot swap them while maintaining an active net connection (to an IMAP server, or a chat server, or something), then what?

1 expansion slot for wifi + storage is bad.

Since they're also going to be using a daughter card (I think) for the HSPA module, why not have that daughter card be HSPA+Wifi? They could even have it be a range of card options, depending on the customer's requirements:

Wifi only
Wifi + HSPA
Wifi + EVDO
Wifi + WiMAX

And when you add/switch a carrier, all you need to do is swap your wireless daughter cards. And then you're not mucking with the storage slot.

You can use the kickstand to keep your left hand inside, while using the right hand to type and use the stylus. It also has the advantage the device cannot be ripped out of your hands easily.

And the disadvantage that you can't comfortably type with both thumbs. I've tried it (and I used to regularly do this with my N800). That positioning works great when you're NOT typing. It doesn't work quite so great when you do want to type.

I maintain my assertion about the inconvenience of the N810's port positioning. :-}